Broadband aerial

[Ray T]

A while ago now, when out on the boat, we used to access broadband by putting a dongle inside an CB aerial coil with a magnetic base. See pictures. The dongle had a sim card in it, the other end had a usb connection which plugged into a laptop.

Due to advances in telecommunication this no longer works.
I have been doing research and all the external aerials I can find require plugging into a router.  We don't want that as we only want access to a laptop. The free WiFi reception in the marina where we moor is poor. If too many are accessing it the connection it frequently drops out.
Does anyone have a dongle/aerial solution for occasional use, which does what we want?
Thank you.

ETA we've tried internal aerials but being inside the boat, again reception is poor. We either have to sit in the cratch or in the hatches which is not always convenient.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Ray T

[IanD]

Most 5G dongles have internal antennas, you can't connect an external one, have an attached USB plug, and aren't suitable for outdoor use -- not ideal for what you want.

 

You can get outdoor CPE which connect via Ethernet to your laptop, but they are few and far between and tend to cost more than a router plus an external antenna.

Edited October 28, 2023 by IanD

[Paul C]

I bought this:

 

Off of eBay for £15, it connects to a Huawei E5573 mifi device (also off eBay, about £26). Beware there are several standards for aerial connection - mine is TS9 but I believe there is also "SMA" which is more sturdy (it screws in, instead of a push-fit). In any case, so long as the wires are a reasonable length you can mount them outside. These things tend to use 2 aerials.

 

With careful placement I've mounted them horizontally without sticking out of the boat (so cruising near bushes etc is okay), but you could try vertical placement if horizontal gets no signal.

 

On Vodaphone, we tend to get enough internet speed to stream, although some places it goes pretty slow. But its mostly better with the external aerials than the mifi inside the boat (sometimes the internal aerial is okay though, in strong areas). If I struggled, used the internet more, or didn't have a backup I'd probably step up to a bigger/better aerial.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Paul C

[ditchcrawler]

11 minutes ago, Paul C said:

I bought this:

 

Off of eBay for £15, it connects to a Huawei E5573 mifi device (also off eBay, about £26). Beware there are several standards for aerial connection - mine is TS9 but I believe there is also "SMA" which is more sturdy (it screws in, instead of a push-fit). In any case, so long as the wires are a reasonable length you can mount them outside. These things tend to use 2 aerials.

 

With careful placement I've mounted them horizontally without sticking out of the boat (so cruising near bushes etc is okay), but you could try vertical placement if horizontal gets no signal.

 

On Vodaphone, we tend to get enough internet speed to stream, although some places it goes pretty slow. But its mostly better with the external aerials than the mifi inside the boat (sometimes the internal aerial is okay though, in strong areas). If I struggled, used the internet more, or didn't have a backup I'd probably step up to a bigger/better aerial.

Do you have to change any configurations when using the external aerials 

[IanD]

16 minutes ago, Paul C said:

I bought this:

 

Off of eBay for £15, it connects to a Huawei E5573 mifi device (also off eBay, about £26). Beware there are several standards for aerial connection - mine is TS9 but I believe there is also "SMA" which is more sturdy (it screws in, instead of a push-fit). In any case, so long as the wires are a reasonable length you can mount them outside. These things tend to use 2 aerials.

 

With careful placement I've mounted them horizontally without sticking out of the boat (so cruising near bushes etc is okay), but you could try vertical placement if horizontal gets no signal.

 

On Vodaphone, we tend to get enough internet speed to stream, although some places it goes pretty slow. But its mostly better with the external aerials than the mifi inside the boat (sometimes the internal aerial is okay though, in strong areas). If I struggled, used the internet more, or didn't have a backup I'd probably step up to a bigger/better aerial.

 

You could try a ZTE MF286D (about £50) with an external antenna (e.g. the Mikrotik one is £25) and SMA cables (about £10) -- likely to be a lot better than the stick ones...

 

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/talk/threads/better-than-huawei-e5573.38901/

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/285185066956

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/173804669246

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/194532410274

 

If you want 5G coverage as well as 4G then things get a *lot* more expensive...

Edited October 28, 2023 by IanD

[Rob-M]

I have a Poynting xpol-a001 attached to a mag mount short pole which if I need to use I stick on the roof and run the cables through a window or the front doors.  It then connects to my Huawei router.  Most of the time though the internal antenna in the router are sufficient to get a good signal.

[Paul C]

2 hours ago, IanD said:

 

You could try a ZTE MF286D (about £50) with an external antenna (e.g. the Mikrotik one is £25) and SMA cables (about £10) -- likely to be a lot better than the stick ones...

 

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/talk/threads/better-than-huawei-e5573.38901/

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/285185066956

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/173804669246

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/194532410274

 

If you want 5G coverage as well as 4G then things get a *lot* more expensive...

You'd hope twice as good, at twice the price!! The cheap Chinese aerials are pretty rubbish, but get the signal from outside to inside the boat.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Paul C

[IanD]

3 hours ago, Paul C said:

You'd hope twice as good, at twice the price!! The cheap Chinese aerials are pretty rubbish, but get the signal from outside to inside the boat.

They do, but they don't cover all the bands used in the UK, at least not with reasonable gain. Sometimes the cheapest solution is a false economy... 😉

[Paul C]

11 hours ago, IanD said:

They do, but they don't cover all the bands used in the UK, at least not with reasonable gain. Sometimes the cheapest solution is a false economy... 😉

 

That's not really quantitative though. I am sure a much more scientific approach can be adopted. It would be useful to see back-to-back comparisons of a cheap setup vs intermediate vs expensive. If the cheap setup mostly works (as is demonstrated by my experience and thread with details of data speed in various locations/times across the NW) a law of diminishing returns will apply to the expensive solutions.

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, Paul C said:

 

That's not really quantitative though. I am sure a much more scientific approach can be adopted. It would be useful to see back-to-back comparisons of a cheap setup vs intermediate vs expensive. If the cheap setup mostly works (as is demonstrated by my experience and thread with details of data speed in various locations/times across the NW) a law of diminishing returns will apply to the expensive solutions.

I agree, £15 on a couple of aerials to several hundred on Starlink

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I agree, £15 on a couple of aerials to several hundred on Starlink

It's physics, innit?

 

A better (higher-gain/lower-loss) setup will allow better data rates -- or any reception at all -- in poor-signal areas. That obviously doesn't mean a lower-performance (and cheaper one) won't still work in a lot of places -- which is fine if that meets your needs. If it doesn't, a better (and more expensive) setup will give better reception.

 

Starlink is the extreme case here, high data rates almost everywhere but horrendously expensive, and massive overkill for almost all boaters.

[Paul C]

8 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

A better ............better data rates ...........poor............  lower-performance........... a lot of places -..........better.......... better .

 

 

Quantitative means putting numbers to it, based on a sound test methodology.

[IanD]

19 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

Quantitative means putting numbers to it, based on a sound test methodology.

Feel free to do so, it won't change the laws of physics.

 

All you need to to is navigate round the entire canal system while comparing multiple setups on all the providers and logging the results. Better do it several times to allow for signal/weather/congestion variations. Probably no more than a couple of years of full-time work, would probably make an interesting PhD thesis.

 

Meanwhile in the real world, a better setup will give better results, but usually cost more... 😉

Edited October 29, 2023 by IanD

[Paul C]

10 minutes ago, IanD said:

Feel free to do so, it won't change the laws of physics.

 

All you need to to is navigate round the entire canal system while comparing multiple setups on all the providers and logging the results. Better do it several times to allow for signal/weather/congestion variations. Probably no more than a couple of years of full-time work, would probably make an interesting PhD thesis.

 

Meanwhile in the real world, a better setup will give better results, but usually cost more... 😉

 

I was hoping you might link to another forum, or better still an article on one of the many ISP/broadband/mobile websites/forums out there - I've dipped into them but not read much - and someone might have done a vaguely similar comparison test.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Paul C said:

 

I was hoping you might link to another forum, or better still an article on one of the many ISP/broadband/mobile websites/forums out there - I've dipped into them but not read much - and someone might have done a vaguely similar comparison test.

Various people on the mobile broadband forum I provided the link to have done such tests, obviously only in their own location. The inevitable result is that a better router and higher-gain antenna (and shorter/lower-loss cabling) gives better results, for lots of different hardware tried. There are many *many* threads showing this... 😉

 

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/talk/forums/mobile-broadband-and-fixed-wireless.106/

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2020/04/how-to-choose-an-external-4g-or-5g-mobile-broadband-antenna.html

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/talk/threads/seeking-advice-for-router-and-antenna-setup-three-rural-broadband.40682/

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/talk/threads/would-an-external-antenna-help.40684/

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/talk/threads/antenna-for-three-5g-hub.39528/

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/talk/threads/simple-5g-outdoor-modem.40528/

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/talk/threads/kit-recommendation-for-rural-east-yorkshire.40254/

Edited October 29, 2023 by IanD

[Onewheeler]

A clunky solution would be a cheap phone in a waterproof enclosure on a stick outside, with a USB lead back to your laptop to charge and tether it.

[Paul C]

On 29/10/2023 at 11:31, IanD said:

Feel free to do so, it won't change the laws of physics.

 

All you need to to is navigate round the entire canal system while comparing multiple setups on all the providers and logging the results. Better do it several times to allow for signal/weather/congestion variations. Probably no more than a couple of years of full-time work, would probably make an interesting PhD thesis

I may do this next spring when we are out on the boat again, obviously not the whole country but wherever we get to in a week. You make a valid point about doing the test(s) several times, I found a lot of variation at different times of the day. 

 

I have O2 and voda sorted, just need to find a cheap EE and Three SIM only to cover all 4 networks.

[IanD]

32 minutes ago, Paul C said:

I may do this next spring when we are out on the boat again, obviously not the whole country but wherever we get to in a week. You make a valid point about doing the test(s) several times, I found a lot of variation at different times of the day. 

 

I have O2 and voda sorted, just need to find a cheap EE and Three SIM only to cover all 4 networks.

 

Just bear in mind that you'll still be doing a tiny and limited personal sample compared to the opensignal results where EE come out on top for consistency across the UK:

 

https://www.opensignal.com/methodology-overview

 

"Opensignal collects billions of individual measurements every day from over 100 million devices worldwide, under conditions of normal usage, including measurements in both indoor and outdoor locations."

 

As far as router/antenna setup is concerned, the answer is simple -- a router which can aggregate more bands/MIMO channels and an antenna with higher gain will give higher data rates and better coverage -- the amount of "better" depending on the aggregate bandwidth, what channels are available, and signal levels. For a given required level of service (e.g. download data rates) this will reduce the number of locations where this is not delivered. Lots of people trying out different equipment have come to this conclusion, which is obvious if you understand how cellular radio works.

 

If you're only bothered about reception in one place then once you get good enough data rate there (with whichever carrier) you're sorted, even with a cheap/low-end solution. If you want to move around a lot, a higher performance solution will decrease the chance of not getting a usable connection -- but not to zero... 😉

[Paul C]

Appreciated it’s a limited sample, but being on a narrowboat has some specific factors:

 

1) it’s inside a metal box - so an aerial may be needed, or siting a phone high up near a window

2) by the nature of canals and obviously rivers, you’re often in a valley, often rural

3) (personal for me) we move around, so it’s not so much each place, but to see if there’s a general trend.

 

Personally, if a mobile phone hanging in the window worked, I would do that as the cheapest viable option, but my experience is it’s pretty terrible in many places (sone areas it’s the best though, because 5G - I’m not going down the 5G router road). So I’m interested to see if a pretty minimal setup actually works, and how often it doesn’t. And when/where it doesn’t, whether a £400 “proper” setup would, given your poor EE results in Anderton.

[IanD]

Just now, Paul C said:

Appreciated it’s a limited sample, but being on a narrowboat has some specific factors:

 

1) it’s inside a metal box - so an aerial may be needed, or siting a phone high up near a window

2) by the nature of canals and obviously rivers, you’re often in a valley, often rural

3) (personal for me) we move around, so it’s not so much each place, but to see if there’s a general trend.

 

Personally, if a mobile phone hanging in the window worked, I would do that as the cheapest viable option, but my experience is it’s pretty terrible in many places (sone areas it’s the best though, because 5G - I’m not going down the 5G router road). So I’m interested to see if a pretty minimal setup actually works, and how often it doesn’t. And when/where it doesn’t, whether a £400 “proper” setup would, given your poor EE results in Anderton.

 

Depends on your definition of "poor" -- it managed to get a connection when my phone wouldn't even standing outside on the stern... 😉

 

(and yes another network than EE would be better in that particular location, but I've explained why I decided not to do this -- others may decide differently)

 

I'm not saying everyone should go for such a high-end solution, in fact exactly the opposite -- depending on their needs, they should go for a solution that is good enough for them. Which could be anything from a tethered phone, MiFi, a cheap router/antenna, or a more expensive one, 4G or 5G, MIMOx. For just working in one place, all that's needed is "good enough" -- but if you're going to move round the canals and especially in remote parts of the system a better solution will definitely reduce the chances of having no reception, or an unusably slow one. Of course different people will put different meanings on "unusably slow" depending on what they want to do e.g. email, web browsing, streaming TV...

 

That's just how radio propagation and cellular radio work... 🙂

[Paul C]

Forgot to mention, the other question worth seeking an answer to is "is it worth having a backup network/provider?"

 

In other words, if the tests show that the cheap mifi works on another network when the first choice doesn't, it would be worth having a second data plan (obviously, with the hassle of swapping SIMs, reconfiguring, etc). But if it shows that its location dependent (ie there's places where neither network work, or none of the four main ones) then it becomes worth seeking out a higher gain aerial.

[IanD]

3 hours ago, Paul C said:

Forgot to mention, the other question worth seeking an answer to is "is it worth having a backup network/provider?"

 

In other words, if the tests show that the cheap mifi works on another network when the first choice doesn't, it would be worth having a second data plan (obviously, with the hassle of swapping SIMs, reconfiguring, etc). But if it shows that its location dependent (ie there's places where neither network work, or none of the four main ones) then it becomes worth seeking out a higher gain aerial.

A backup network provider is worth doing if it works for you (SIM swapping or dual-SIM router -- but these tend to be expensive...) but of course you have to pay for both SIMs.

 

Ironically Uplands Marina at Anderton -- where the boat is moored -- is the only place so far where I've had any problem getting good data rates with EE -- if I spent much time there (which I don't) I'd definitely have to swap SIMs... 😞

[Mike Todd]

18 hours ago, Paul C said:

Forgot to mention, the other question worth seeking an answer to is "is it worth having a backup network/provider?"

 

In other words, if the tests show that the cheap mifi works on another network when the first choice doesn't, it would be worth having a second data plan (obviously, with the hassle of swapping SIMs, reconfiguring, etc). But if it shows that its location dependent (ie there's places where neither network work, or none of the four main ones) then it becomes worth seeking out a higher gain aerial.

We deliberately both have a different provider on our mobile phones. Alas, that is Three and Vodaphone so the backup will not last much longer! yet to decide what to do then.

[IanD]

35 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

We deliberately both have a different provider on our mobile phones. Alas, that is Three and Vodaphone so the backup will not last much longer! yet to decide what to do then.

Maybe after the merger VodaThree will have better coverage than EE? 😉

[alias]

19 hours ago, Paul C said:

Forgot to mention, the other question worth seeking an answer to is "is it worth having a backup network/provider?"

 

In other words, if the tests show that the cheap mifi works on another network when the first choice doesn't, it would be worth having a second data plan (obviously, with the hassle of swapping SIMs, reconfiguring, etc). But if it shows that its location dependent (ie there's places where neither network work, or none of the four main ones) then it becomes worth seeking out a higher gain aerial.

 

I've had a contract with Smarty over the last few years, and have a backup O2 PAYG SIM in a second slot on my phone (with the idea that I could buy an O2 data add-on if required).  I've found that in the few places with a poor or non-existent 3 signal (e.g. Crick, parts of the South Oxford summit) the O2 signal has also been very weak.