looking for a tow - 3 miles lock-free section of T&M

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, Helen B said:

Thanks, it's currently in a garage and had two qualified mechanics looking at it, plus my partner who's been working on engines for 40+ years. However, they've drawn a blank so far! The person they are asking used to work on BMC engines in tractors and knows about old engines! I'll try Slim's suggestion of looking it up on the internet, although I'm told they've tried that.

Any tips would be gratefully received, but unfortunately I'm just the one on the keyboard and only have a basic understanding of the problem..!

 

Check that the feed and return pipe to the injector pump are fitted to the correct unions on the filter. The pipe closest to the engine block on the pump is the return, the one at the other end is the feed. There are arrows on the filter head to show which pipe goes where.

 

Make sure the 0.5mm hole in the side of the      large banjo bolt on top of the filter is clear and the return pipe to the fuel tank is in place. Without this you are libel to suffer constant air locks.

 

If when using the lever on the priming/lift pump causes bubble free diesel to come out of the larger banjo bolt on the top of the filter and then from the bleed screw on the SIDE of the injector pump, then the low pressure side has been bled. I would advise that the bleed screw on the top of the throttle/stop turret is not touched.

 

Then set full throttle and loosen the four injector pipe unions on the injectors and spin the engine on the starter and within a few revolutions the fuel should spit or drip from the nuts, usually where the pipe comes out. Tighten the nuts and try to start. The engine should start, but I expect that has all been done.

 

So look at the exhaust. If there are clouds of whitish smoke, then the injectors are working, so look at the valve timing and then the pump timing. It would not be the first time the timing has been set 180 degrees out. If the valve and pump timing is OK then suspect no glow plugs, low compression - even on a rebuilt engine, or a low cranking speed.

 

If there are only a few wisps of smoke, then you have no fuel in the cylinders, so try this. Take the return pipe out of the filter head and push a length of hose over the pipe end. direct this into a container and spin the engine on the starter. Fuel should gush out and purge any residual air from the body of the pump, and with a bit of luck the engine will start or make clouds of smoke. Refit pipe.

 

Hope this helps, but if I had to guess, I would suspect valve or injector pump timing. If it is a 1.5 then the injector pump drive shaft can be fitted in about six different positions, only one is correct. Hopefully there is no bell housing on the engine, so you can see the timing marks on the flywheel.

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

Sorry, I should have put this is as well. It seems the small BMC diesels have a tendency for bubbles of air to lodge n the pipework, so it is vital that you keep priming/bleeding for at least 30 seconds AFTER you think all the air has come out of the two bleed points I mention above.

 

I should also have said, not to try to understand it all, just print it out and hand it to the mechanic.

 

[Tony Brooks]

Yet another thing. The centre bolt that holds the 296 type engine filter together is usually sealed by a small O ring around the bolt, but not always, especially on older engines.

 

If, when you take the bolt out, you can see a taper at the top of the bolt hole, then it uses a small O ring, BUT it has been known for pattern filter suppliers to supply the wrong O ring (too thin in section in think).

 

If the top of the filter around the bolt hole has a machined flat face, then it is sealed with a soft washer. I would probably try a Dowty washer, but originally they were copper.

 

On the engine filter a problem here would more likely cause a leak, but one never knows, the injector pump transfer pump might suck air when the engine is running.

[Helen B]

Thanks for being so generous with your advice, Tony. I will print this out for them to use at the garage. Chris was familiar with some of the things you talked about, but there were one or two new things.

I'm in a bit of a hurry now, but we will get back to you later on and tell you how it's going..

[Slim]

On 26/10/2023 at 21:58, Helen B said:

Thanks, it's currently in a garage and had two qualified mechanics looking at it, plus my partner who's been working on engines for 40+ years. However, they've drawn a blank so far! The person they are asking used to work on BMC engines in tractors and knows about old engines! I'll try Slim's suggestion of looking it up on the internet, although I'm told they've tried that.

Any tips would be gratefully received, but unfortunately I'm just the one on the keyboard and only have a basic understanding of the problem..!

Not the internet (as such) ON this forum.

[alias]

2 hours ago, Slim said:

Not the internet (as such) ON this forum.

 

To make it easier: https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Acanalworld.net+bleeding+a+BMC+1.8 gives 228 hits from the forums.

[enigmatic]

On 23/10/2023 at 19:25, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

Bow hauling is good fun,

if the weather’s on your side,

it’s all an experience,

 

Bow hauling is even more fun and quite a bit quicker if the reason you're doing it is because you really, really need to attach to Armco before the coming storm 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

31 minutes ago, alias said:

 

To make it easier: https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Acanalworld.net+bleeding+a+BMC+1.8 gives 228 hits from the forums.

I’m not sure them Threads, as well meant as they are, make it any easier 🙃 they totally confuse me with so many suggestions and with many variable/different ways, with plenty of wrong suggestions and then corrections and recorrections. 
 

I’d suggest anyone new with little or no experience of bleeding a fuel system get a hold of the correct manual. There’s shed loads available for BMC’s. I use mine for the basics. The manual shows the simple step by step process with diagrams. 
 

But I guess OP & Co, who do have experience, may have a problem outside the basic manual? 🤷‍♀️

[Tony Brooks]

3 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

I’m not sure them Threads, as well meant as they are, make it any easier 🙃 they totally confuse me with so many suggestions and with many variable/different ways, with plenty of wrong suggestions and then corrections and recorrections. 
 

I’d suggest anyone new with little or no experience of bleeding a fuel system get a hold of the correct manual. There’s shed loads available for BMC’s. I use mine for the basics. The manual shows the simple step by step process with diagrams. 
 

But I guess OP & Co, who do have experience, may have a problem outside the basic manual? 🤷‍♀️

 

I just hope that if they follow your advice and follow the manual and are unfortunate enough to tear the idle damper out of the turret, that you will be around to give them another injector pump and fit it.

 

Vehicle/engine manuals are written with a certain amount of assumed knowledge of good practice and practical skills Random boaters can not be assumed to possess those skills, they also are unlikely to have the backup of many years practical experience. So advice should be tailored to suit.

 

These days, I would even question if modern vehicle mechanics have much experience of simple systems such as we use on boats, particularly the CAV DPA systems. There is a lot of difference between successfully changing a modern spin on fuel filter and a 296 type, the 296 type has four different O rings that all must be in the correct locations and properly seated, a spin on just has a ready fitted rubber seal.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

2 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I just hope that if they follow your advice and follow the manual and are unfortunate enough to tear the idle damper out of the turret, that you will be around to give them another injector pump and fit it

I’ve had a lot of success following the simple directions from my BMC manual,

and it is a very basic manual,

giving instruction on engine servicing, 

 

one thing it doesn’t do is give conflicting or erroneous advice 

 

maybe I’m lucky,

(maybe I’ve just tempted fate),

 

yes, I’ve been on here too and asked for advice which I’m grateful for,

and then one has to weigh up who’s making sense, 

for me it’s either you, Tracey or Bizzard,

but the manual is always the starting point

 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

14 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

I’ve had a lot of success following the simple directions from my BMC manual,

and it is a very basic manual,

giving instruction on engine servicing, 

 

one thing it doesn’t do is give conflicting or erroneous advice 

 

maybe I’m lucky,

(maybe I’ve just tempted fate),

 

yes, I’ve been on here too and asked for advice which I’m grateful for,

and then one has to weigh up who’s making sense, 

for me it’s either you, Tracey or Bizzard,

but the manual is always the starting point

 

 

I know it is a simple manual, I have consulted it enough, but it was originally written when the engine was new so not much experience of what happens in service, now, some 60 odd years later certain weaknesses have become apparent so where possible it is best to work around them, and that is where the advice not to touch the turret bleed point whenever possible comes from.

 

It is perfectly possible that you have enough practical knowledge that allows you to avoid potential problems, especially expensive ones, but you can't assume everyone is like that, many are clueless in that department.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

22 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I know it is a simple manual, I have consulted it enough, but it was originally written when the engine was new so not much experience of what happens in service, now, some 60 odd years later certain weaknesses have become apparent so where possible it is best to work around them, and that is where the advice not to touch the turret bleed point whenever possible comes from.

 

It is perfectly possible that you have enough practical knowledge that allows you to avoid potential problems, especially expensive ones, but you can't assume everyone is like that, many are clueless in that department.

Later in the week when I have a moment I’ll dig out my manual and get back to you on this. 
Probably under a new thread. 
 

 

[David Mack]

So after 3 pages of discussion has the OP managed to get 3 miles up the cut?

[Tony Brooks]

40 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

Later in the week when I have a moment I’ll dig out my manual and get back to you on this. 
Probably under a new thread. 
 

 

 

I will save you the trouble, the relavent part of a popular online manual is below.

 

 

First off, there is no mention of the possibility of the cam stopping in the wrong place and inhibiting bleeding. That was assumed knowledge by the writers.

 

Next there is much messing about with pipe connection and a plug in the filter head. Apart from the fact it is not necessary if you bleed from the highest point on the filter, it invites crushing problems on the pipe union. Whereas, bleeding from the leak off pipe banjo that the engine uses to continually bleed the system only risks a soft washer that is easy to replace. It looks to me as if it was written by someone not who used pictures rather than practical experience.

 

You will also notice that there is no warning to use a second spanner to stop any torsion on the hexagon the bleed screw fits into or a warning not to allow the idle damper to move. Those potential dangers can be avoided in the vast majority of cases by simply not touching that screw.

 

By all means slavishly follow the manual if you have little experience, but do not criticise those who modify what the manual says by years of experience and no small amount of technical knowledge in an attempt to minimise potential damage and make the job easier.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Tony Brooks

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Below what?

[Tony Brooks]

now edited to complete the post.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

By all means slavishly follow the manual if you have little experience, but do not criticise those who modify what the manual says by years of experience and no small amount of technical knowledge in an attempt to minimise potential damage and make the job easier.

I think you’re over exciting yourself and making an argument with me that doesn’t exist. 
 

I’m not criticising anyone for modifying a dated manual.

My original comment is regards threads, particularly the one linked above, that can become so confusing with often conflicting advice, and sometimes the wrong advice.

From my experience the best starting point is the manual. 

I have a Thorneycroft manual for my BMC 1800. 
I welcome any advice why and where it’s wrong. 
 
 

Sometimes slavishly following a manual is a good way to learn. 
And as you learn you become more confident and then take the ‘short cuts’ or find alternatives. 
But one has to start somewhere. 



 

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by beerbeerbeerbeerbeer

[Helen B]

On 29/10/2023 at 10:45, Slim said:

Not the internet (as such) ON this forum.

Thanks yes, we've tried that..

19 hours ago, David Mack said:

So after 3 pages of discussion has the OP managed to get 3 miles up the cut?

Yes!! Will add some photos..

[Helen B]

Here is Gonzo with the 'Tow needed to Wheelock' sign and us under tow! Not a very good picture, I know.. but it does just show the boat in front who very kindly answered our appeal! They were the first boat that went past!

We did try some bow-hauling to get the boat in a better position and in a place where it could be turned round. The method using a long stern line and short bow line worked perfectly! However, we were relieved to be offered a tow, as there was a fishing match further on 😱, plus several moored boats, including ones with aerials, a pram cover, etc. Not sure how we would have coped with them..!

Fortunately, it was a quiet day and we didn't meet any other boats - a big relief, especially on the windy, narrow bit approaching Wheelock. The people who helped us hadn't towed anyone before, but were happy to help and all went well

Thanks for your reassuring advice everyone - it definitely gave us the confidence to give it a go!

 

[Arthur Marshall]

Excellent. Good luck with the engine.

[Helen B]

Thank you 👍