Licences

[Mike Todd]

1 hour ago, Arthur Marshall said:

I was just replying to a post that implied licence costs would have to double. No need to get shirty...

But you could as well argue that I'm being penalised because a load of freeloaders are neither paying their way nor following the spirit (and often) the letter of the law. I think there's little doubt that it's a small minority of CCers who actually, genuinely cruise rather than hang about in a twenty mile zone, avoiding locks as if they were inventions of the devil. A couple on the Macc have been doing it for as long as I've been here, and good luck to them (it's a lovely lifestyle) but it sure aint being on a cruise. And before you ask, it wouldn't suit me.

I'm not actually arguing either way, I'm quite happy paying for my mooring, my mooring fees, and my licence. I'm just taking part in a discussion.

ETA if you'd bothered to try to follow my argument instead of getting instantly nowty, you'd have noticed that it was implying that the unused spaces being paid for by the marinas would lower the need to raise licence costs for all parties, not raise them. But then, you're not really interested.

I have met quite a number of boaters without a home mooring who spend the whole time on the long pound above Caen Hill, never doing a lock, but are doing so entirely legitimately.

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

Sorry Arthur, hold

your horses, I didn’t mean to come across like I may have. 


 

Sorry if I got wrong end of stick. No worries...

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

6 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

I always opt or the the 9 month period monthly repayments, as look forward to having 3 months with a little extra in the bank.

 Just used the new licence calculator to compare licensing, my current licence £1385 with home mooring.(£2700). The continuous Cruising licence £1454. So I doubt many CCers will be rushing to get into Marina’s to save money, not even in 5 years time.

 

Yep, I do the 9 month thing,

and it works out nicely because some of the coldest months of the year I can put the money towards coal 

 

I can’t see CCers rushing in to marinas either, although some might look for an angle and try and get away with paying a small figure for a ghost mooring. 

[Arthur Marshall]

36 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

I have met quite a number of boaters without a home mooring who spend the whole time on the long pound above Caen Hill, never doing a lock, but are doing so entirely legitimately.

Of course it's quite legitimate, and so is spending twenty years dawdling between the bottom of Bosley and the bottom of the Macc, but what it isn't, by any definition, is a cruise, or what the original act imagined was one.

Whatever CRT's supposed justification for the surcharge, usage of the system doesn't have much to do with it . I use the infrastructure ten times as much as one of the bunch you describe, and so does a hire boater in a week.

The surcharge is being introduced because CRT needs money, and it needs it because the original calculation of the proportion of CCers to home moorers has been put right out of kilter by the sheer quantity of the former who are taking advantage of an interpretation of the law which was never intended. It's as much BW and CRT's fault as anything by simply not providing moorings where people want them, and then never having the bottle to define what they mean by a cruise.

Prior to whenever, there was just a licence and we were all treated the same, though some of us paid for a mooring and some didn't. BW charged the mooring providers a fee, same as CRT usually does now, which the landlord factored into the rent, so all home moorers contributed that bit extra to the authority for the right to stay put. I still think the split into the two categories of boater was a mistake, complicating the whole business unnecessarily. The surcharge is just heaping more mess on to it.

Edited February 24 by Arthur Marshall

[Momac]

11 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

 The surcharge is just heaping more mess on to it.

The 'more mess' very effectively dividing the different categories of boaters.

This is C&RT's scheme to maintain control and this forum shows how very well that scheme is working.

 

 

[peterboat]

5 hours ago, LadyG said:

I think they had to charge extra for widebeams, not so sure about cc, it might be tricky.

Widebeams have a much smaller cruising range which is how it is, so maybe charging people more for less isn't really fair? After all it doesn't really matter if a widebeam is on a wide canal it's what it was designed for. Maybe all narrowboats should stay on narrow canals, after all they pay less so should accept less?

[Arthur Marshall]

2 hours ago, Momac said:

The 'more mess' very effectively dividing the different categories of boaters.

This is C&RT's scheme to maintain control and this forum shows how very well that scheme is working.

 

 

This rubbish about dividing boaters has been going on for thirty years , and it was rubbish then and it's rubbish now. There was bs about shiny boaters being hated by scruffy ones, and liveaboards by them what didn't, and tin boats versus yoghurt pots, and how we all hate cyclists and fishermen and dog walkers.

It's a civilised discussion as to the rights and wrongs, or the effectiveness, or the law or whatever, that's all. I've never met a moorer who said he despised CCers, and plenty of the latter come up and chat when I'm out and about. I've shared locks with all of them. Several of my friends are CCers, some have been both at times. Who cares?

Strangely, we all get on. Especially, as you seem to forget, when you're out on a boat, there is absolutely no way of telling whether someone's got a mooring, or a share, or just cruising. None of us really give a toss, in the real world.

This is social media, and a discussion forum. It's not real.

[Naartjie AKA Duck Hatch]

👍 well said

Edited February 25 by Naartjie - Duck Hatch

[Momac]

16 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

This rubbish about dividing boaters has been going on for thirty years , and it was rubbish then and it's rubbish now. There was bs about shiny boaters being hated by scruffy ones, and liveaboards by them what didn't, and tin boats versus yoghurt pots, and how we all hate cyclists and fishermen and dog walkers.

It's a civilised discussion as to the rights and wrongs, or the effectiveness, or the law or whatever, that's all. I've never met a moorer who said he despised CCers, and plenty of the latter come up and chat when I'm out and about. I've shared locks with all of them. Several of my friends are CCers, some have been both at times. Who cares?

Strangely, we all get on. Especially, as you seem to forget, when you're out on a boat, there is absolutely no way of telling whether someone's got a mooring, or a share, or just cruising. None of us really give a toss, in the real world.

This is social media, and a discussion forum. It's not real.

I will bear that in mind that everything you write is not real. 

 

[IanD]

21 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

This rubbish about dividing boaters has been going on for thirty years , and it was rubbish then and it's rubbish now. There was bs about shiny boaters being hated by scruffy ones, and liveaboards by them what didn't, and tin boats versus yoghurt pots, and how we all hate cyclists and fishermen and dog walkers.

It's a civilised discussion as to the rights and wrongs, or the effectiveness, or the law or whatever, that's all. I've never met a moorer who said he despised CCers, and plenty of the latter come up and chat when I'm out and about. I've shared locks with all of them. Several of my friends are CCers, some have been both at times. Who cares?

Strangely, we all get on. Especially, as you seem to forget, when you're out on a boat, there is absolutely no way of telling whether someone's got a mooring, or a share, or just cruising. None of us really give a toss, in the real world.

This is social media, and a discussion forum. It's not real.

It seems that the posters complaining about the changes to the license fees "dividing boaters" are mostly those who will end up paying more as a result, meaning CCers and widebeam owners.

 

The other boaters who won't pay more -- the vast majority, looking at the actual numbers ( CCers and widebeams are outnumbered by about 4:1) -- don't seem to be quite as concerned about such division.

 

This rather suggests that the reason for the protests is all to do with self-interest and nothing to do with division... 😉

 

 

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

( CCers and widebeams are outnumbered by about 4:1)

 

 

Around here on the eastern K&A I'd estimate the ratio of fatty boat to thinny boat is about 1:1 now. 

 

Measured by deck area, obvs. 

 

 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

47 minutes ago, IanD said:

self-interest and nothing to do with division..

it’s self interest that creates division

[Alan de Enfield]

Its sorta 'mind over matter'.

 

I don't mind and he doesn't matter!

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Yep,

sums it up well

[Nightwatch]

Someone mentioned a license calculator somewhere. Anyone know where to find it please?

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

https://licensing.canalrivertrust.org.uk/licenceprices

 

sign in and it’ll have your boat details of course

Edited February 25 by beerbeerbeerbeerbeer

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

39 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

Someone mentioned a license calculator somewhere. Anyone know where to find it please?

Here’s the link:

https://licensing.canalrivertrust.org.uk/licenceprices

[Alan de Enfield]

8 hours ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Here’s the link:

https://licensing.canalrivertrust.org.uk/licenceprices

 

 

That's handy - so without a mooring a 60 foot NB is now (April) £1400 and a 60' class 3 widebeam is £1747

 

The same NB with a mooring is £1334 and the same WB with a mooring is £1680

 

Is it worth all the "CC surcharge" hassle for the extra £65 ?

[MtB]

17 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

That's handy - so without a mooring a 60 foot NB is now (April) £1400 and a 60' class 3 widebeam is £1747

 

The same NB with a mooring is £1334 and the same WB with a mooring is £1680

 

Is it worth all the "CC surcharge" hassle for the extra £65 ?

 

 

As I said in another thread the CC surcharge costs buttons, so I don't see what all the fuss is about. 

[IanD]

19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

That's handy - so without a mooring a 60 foot NB is now (April) £1400 and a 60' class 3 widebeam is £1747

 

The same NB with a mooring is £1334 and the same WB with a mooring is £1680

 

Is it worth all the "CC surcharge" hassle for the extra £65 ?

 

No -- because as I'm sure you're perfectly aware the CC surcharge is being introduced gradually (at 5% per year) to reduce the shock to CCers wallets. By the time it gets up to 25% in 5 years time it'll be worth about £2M/year to CART -- not a massive boost to their finances, but not to be sniffed at, and *far* bigger than any administrative cost in collecting it.

 

And I struggle to see why this cost should be significant anyway, AFAIK boaters already either have to tick the "CC" box or provide details of where their HM is when applying for a license so CART have all the information they need to make the surcharge automatically.

 

Just now, MtB said:

 

As I said in another thread the CC surcharge costs buttons, so I don't see what all the fuss is about. 

 

Because CCers don't want to pay it?

Edited February 26 by IanD

[Arthur Marshall]

18 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

That's handy - so without a mooring a 60 foot NB is now (April) £1400 and a 60' class 3 widebeam is £1747

 

The same NB with a mooring is £1334 and the same WB with a mooring is £1680

 

Is it worth all the "CC surcharge" hassle for the extra £65 ?

Be a bit more than that in a few years time, with the surcharge up to full rate and basic licences up10% a year.

1 minute ago, IanD said:

Because CCers don't want to pay it?

Can't blame them. I don't want to pay 10% on the licence and 5% on the mooring, either.

There again, I'd rather not pay anything at all and have the system run like clockwork. Magic , that's what we need.

[Nightwatch]

9 hours ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Here’s the link:

https://licensing.canalrivertrust.org.uk/licenceprices

Taa mucho! It seems the increase for CC’ers is not as severe as I thought it would be. Still feel uncomfortable with it though. A bit of money grabbing going on I reckon.

Edited February 26 by Nightwatch

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Arthur Marshall said:

Be a bit more than that in a few years time, with the surcharge up to full rate and basic licences up10% a year.

Can't blame them. I don't want to pay 10% on the licence and 5% on the mooring, either.

There again, I'd rather not pay anything at all and have the system run like clockwork. Magic , that's what we need.

 

The problem is that lots of people don't want to pay more for their license, and more specifically don't want to pay more than other people even if there is a good reason for this. They're probably also the same people complaining about the poor state of the canals and how they should have more spent on maintenance, but seem unable to join the dots... 😞

Edited February 26 by IanD

[Arthur Marshall]

27 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

Taa mucho! It seems the increase for CC’ers is not as severe as I thought it would be. Still feel uncomfortable with it though. A bit of money grabbing going on I reckon.

Obviously. CRT doesn't have enough money to run the show , so what do you expect?

Economic zen master, he say in monopoly situation with locked-in consumers, costs go up, non-consumer income go down, prices they go up.

Zen master he also say, tin floaty toy be luxury item, you not want pay whack, you go play trombone instead.

[MtB]

54 minutes ago, Nightwatch said:

Taa mucho! It seems the increase for CC’ers is not as severe as I thought it would be. Still feel uncomfortable with it though. A bit of money grabbing going on I reckon.

 

I too am deeply uncomfortable with all these unrealistically low licence fees. Unless CRT grasp the nettle and ramp them up properly to match what it costs to maintain the canals, we are at risk of losing them totally. 

 

A LOT, (one helluvalot) of money grabbing is needed to secure the future of the canal system.