recommendations for shot-blasting and epoxy 'blacking' in reach of Cropredy.

[Tigerr]

It's all in the title really. Planning ahead - the new boat was blacked a couple of years ago, and it's time to think about the next one. I've always gone for old-style bitumen, every 2 years. 

But it's a hassle and expensive in the long term. 

I'm minded to go for a more robust solution with a really good shot blast and multiple layers of epoxy. extend the lifespan and remove the need to get it done so often. 

So - looking for a good yard that does this really well, within a 4 day cruise of Cropredy. I imagine the good operators are now looking at bookings next year. 

Anyone got suggestions? 

It's a 2016 hull so should be in decent nick as a base. 

 

[Bod]

Debdale.

Just beyond Foxton locks.

Had ours, grit blasted, zinc sprayed, epoxyed, comes with guarantee!

 

Bod

[dave moore]

Norton Canes at Glascote May be able to help.

[Tracy D'arth]

Another recommendation for Debdale. You get a 10 year guarantee too!

[blackrose]

Whichever yard you end up considering, ask them which epoxy they use and ask to see the technical data sheet for the product. They might consider that an unusual request but if they don't have it or don't know what you're talking about walk away. 

 

Even a yard that's been using the same epoxy for years should have the TDS somewhere to refer to, even if it's just a download of PDF so that they know things like mixing ratios, wet film thickness, minimum overcoating times according to temperature, etc. I've used Jotamastic for years for example, but I still have to check the TDS sometimes. 

 

Likewise, if the technical data isn't being clearly communicated with the person who's actually doing the painting then chances are it will be a bad job. Epoxy isn't like bitumen, it's a more technical product and you can't just slap it on. 

[Tigerr]

17 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Whichever yard you end up considering, ask them which epoxy they use and ask to see the technical data sheet for the product. They might consider that an unusual request but if they don't have it or don't know what you're talking about walk away. 

 

Even a yard that's been using the same epoxy for years should have the TDS somewhere to refer to, even if it's just a download of PDF so that they know things like mixing ratios, wet film thickness, minimum overcoating times according to temperature, etc. I've used Jotamastic for years for example, but I still have to check the TDS sometimes. 

 

Likewise, if the technical data isn't being clearly communicated with the person who's actually doing the painting then chances are it will be a bad job. Epoxy isn't like bitumen, it's a more technical product and you can't just slap it on. 

That's why recommendations are so important.

Because I could look at a technical data sheet for several hours, and still not understand the tiny detail point that in two years or so emerges as a problem. 

I can see there's a swing towards the shot blast/epoxy approach going on, where people can afford it, but these are much more technical, and expensive products than the old blacking. 

I can see Debdale are getting a lot of upticks. Going to ask them what to expect. 

[DShK]

1 hour ago, dave moore said:

Norton Canes at Glascote May be able to help.

 

Just had my boat done at Norton Canes. Did a great job, and on my tunnel bands and anodes too 👍 Very pleased. They did the boat with the previous owner, six or so years ago and it lasted very well.

 

The trouble with Debdale is they don't have a cover. I have been turned away because "it looks like it's going to rain". 

Edited September 15, 2023 by DShK

[Ewan123]

16 minutes ago, DShK said:

 

Just had my boat done at Norton Canes. Did a great job, and on my tunnel bands and anodes too 👍 Very pleased. They did the boat with the previous owner, six or so years ago and it lasted very well.

 

The trouble with Debdale is they don't have a cover. I have been turned away because "it looks like it's going to rain". 

You must be thinking of somewhere else - Debdale have a full on temperature-controlled shed so the boat is completely inside for the blasting and epoxy.

 

Here's our boat about to emerge:

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Ewan123

[MtB]

18 minutes ago, Ewan123 said:

You must be thinking of somewhere else - Debdale have a full on temperature-controlled shed so the boat is completely inside for the blasting and epoxy.

 

I was thinking the same. But also, isn't Debdale about ten days' cruising from Cropredy?

 

 

The OP specified four days, which leaves Glascote and thats about it, I'd imagine. 

 

Unless they do it down at Heyford Wharf. They might do. Or even Aynho. 

 

 

[Ewan123]

54 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I was thinking the same. But also, isn't Debdale about ten days' cruising from Cropredy?

 

 

The OP specified four days, which leaves Glascote and thats about it, I'd imagine. 

 

Unless they do it down at Heyford Wharf. They might do. Or even Aynho. 

 

 

Canalplan defaults give just over 3.5 days from Cropredy to Debdale, though I've not done it myself to know the reality. Of course we don't know how far OP considers a day's cruising to be which could make a big difference.

 

Also for @Tigerr, I'm another vote for Debdale. It's not been a year since ours was gritblasted and coated in epoxy so can't speak to the longevity, but they struck me as professionals to deal with and communicated very well.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Ewan123

[DShK]

Ah, nope definitely debdale, just off bottom of foxton locks. I had presumed it was because they were going to do my baseplate. But that photo looks like they can do that inside. Perhaps they were planning to do one outside and one inside, and when the weather was bad it caught them out. They were very apologetic and had a look at my prop shaft for me (trying to help diagnose a problem I'd been having) for no charge. The next slot was like 2 months off (after I'd waited several) so I just gave up and went cruising. Worked out for me in the end.

 

Next time I reckon I'll do it myself, didn't seem to be that hard or take that long (in actual work hours)

Edited September 15, 2023 by DShK

[Ewan123]

1 minute ago, DShK said:

Ah, nope definitely debdale, just off bottom of foxton locks. I had presumed it was because they were going to do my baseplate. But that photo looks like they can do that inside. Perhaps they were planning to do one outside and one inside, and when the weather was bad it caught them out. They were very apologetic and had a look at my prop shaft for me (trying to help diagnose a problem I'd been having) for no charge. The next slot was like 2 months off (after I'd waited several) so I just gave up and went cruising. Worked out for me in the end.

Oh that's interesting. Yes our baseplate was done while inside (BTW for @Tigerr that's also relevant to the recommendation - Debdale's default position is to do the baseplate as they are set up such that it's easy for them to do it properly).

 

Looking back at the photos, they did have a semi-covered area next to that shed too, though there was no boat being done there at the time - I suspect because it was mid-December so not suitable climate - so perhaps they use that when they can at other times of year? You can see it behind the yellow beast that they used to move the boat here:

 

[JungleJames]

Another for Glascote.

Very clear pricing on the website.

Unlike some places that make you add everything up, Norton Canes just put the whole price on the website. 

 

There aren't many places will grit blast, and even less you can rely on.

 

For your area, I wouldn't look anywhere apart from Glascote or Debdale.

 

 

[MtB]

13 hours ago, Ewan123 said:

Canalplan defaults give just over 3.5 days from Cropredy to Debdale, though I've not done it myself to know the reality.

 

Oh I had in mind they were somewhere oop noarth. Somone just said they are at Foxton so yes, four days sounds about right! 

 

 

[JungleJames]

This thread made me look at the Debdale site, to see what their pricing is like.

Now for those that have been there, is it true that they won't agree a price with you until the boat is out the water and they have measured up the exact square meterage?

By which time they already have £300 of yours for craneage. 

So if you end up not accepting the quote, you've just blown £300 for Nothing? Is that really how it works?

 

Also, working out a price beforehand on their website is virtually impossible.

Deeper draught boats may be more than their approximate '1m2 equals 1 foot', plus I assume the prep cost has to be added on? In which case, how long is a piece of string?

 

So not only is the pricing very complicated, with everything needing to be added up, but you still don't know the exact price until they have £300 of yours, and until they have decided if they want to take a long time over prep work or not.

 

I like it.

'How much to paint my hull'?

 

'Give me £300 and I will tell you'. 

 

I know they have a very good setup, but that is no excuse for such obscurity.

 

Hopefully those that have been there can tell us it isn't like this.

In which case the website lies! 

 

Can anybody suggest a clear, unobscure boatyard, which does a decent paint job, apart from Glascote?

 

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

1 hour ago, JungleJames said:

This thread made me look at the Debdale site, to see what their pricing is like.

Now for those that have been there, is it true that they won't agree a price with you until the boat is out the water and they have measured up the exact square meterage?

By which time they already have £300 of yours for craneage. 

So if you end up not accepting the quote, you've just blown £300 for Nothing? Is that really how it works?

 

Also, working out a price beforehand on their website is virtually impossible.

Deeper draught boats may be more than their approximate '1m2 equals 1 foot', plus I assume the prep cost has to be added on? In which case, how long is a piece of string?

 

So not only is the pricing very complicated, with everything needing to be added up, but you still don't know the exact price until they have £300 of yours, and until they have decided if they want to take a long time over prep work or not.

 

I like it.

'How much to paint my hull'?

 

'Give me £300 and I will tell you'. 

 

I know they have a very good setup, but that is no excuse for such obscurity.

 

Hopefully those that have been there can tell us it isn't like this.

In which case the website lies! 

 

Can anybody suggest a clear, unobscure boatyard, which does a decent paint job, apart from Glascote?

 

 

 

It really is not so difficult to estimate the areas to be treated. Any estimate you get anywhere is exactly that, an estimate. If you want a fixed price quotation from any one they will always want to see it out of the water unless they quote you a worse case price plus an over allowance so that they know that they will not lose money.

I have dealt successfully with Debdale and have no qualms about accepting their estimates because they do a first class job.

[Bod]

2 hours ago, JungleJames said:

This thread made me look at the Debdale site, to see what their pricing is like.

Now for those that have been there, is it true that they won't agree a price with you until the boat is out the water and they have measured up the exact square meterage?

By which time they already have £300 of yours for craneage. 

So if you end up not accepting the quote, you've just blown £300 for Nothing? Is that really how it works?

 

Also, working out a price beforehand on their website is virtually impossible.

Deeper draught boats may be more than their approximate '1m2 equals 1 foot', plus I assume the prep cost has to be added on? In which case, how long is a piece of string?

 

So not only is the pricing very complicated, with everything needing to be added up, but you still don't know the exact price until they have £300 of yours, and until they have decided if they want to take a long time over prep work or not.

 

I like it.

'How much to paint my hull'?

 

'Give me £300 and I will tell you'. 

 

I know they have a very good setup, but that is no excuse for such obscurity.

 

Hopefully those that have been there can tell us it isn't like this.

In which case the website lies! 

 

Can anybody suggest a clear, unobscure boatyard, which does a decent paint job, apart from Glascote?

 

 

 

When we contacted Debdale, once they knew the size of the boat, the quote was clear, but with the caveats of the hull condition, being good enough to withstand the process.

The first operation being a powerful pressure wash, that should uncover any suspect areas, then it's your choice to go ahead or return to water.

Straight forward to deal with.

 

Bod

[Ewan123]

3 hours ago, JungleJames said:

This thread made me look at the Debdale site, to see what their pricing is like.

Now for those that have been there, is it true that they won't agree a price with you until the boat is out the water and they have measured up the exact square meterage?

By which time they already have £300 of yours for craneage. 

So if you end up not accepting the quote, you've just blown £300 for Nothing? Is that really how it works?

 

Also, working out a price beforehand on their website is virtually impossible.

Deeper draught boats may be more than their approximate '1m2 equals 1 foot', plus I assume the prep cost has to be added on? In which case, how long is a piece of string?

 

So not only is the pricing very complicated, with everything needing to be added up, but you still don't know the exact price until they have £300 of yours, and until they have decided if they want to take a long time over prep work or not.

 

I like it.

'How much to paint my hull'?

 

'Give me £300 and I will tell you'. 

 

I know they have a very good setup, but that is no excuse for such obscurity.

 

Hopefully those that have been there can tell us it isn't like this.

In which case the website lies! 

 

Can anybody suggest a clear, unobscure boatyard, which does a decent paint job, apart from Glascote?

 

 

 

Last year they gave us a quote just based on me saying it's a 62ft narrowboat. With obvious caveats for "this is only an estimate" etc. I'd just get in touch and ask them to start off with, rather than getting too caught up in what the website says. 

[David Mack]

4 hours ago, JungleJames said:

This thread made me look at the Debdale site, to see what their pricing is like.

Now for those that have been there, is it true that they won't agree a price with you until the boat is out the water and they have measured up the exact square meterage?

By which time they already have £300 of yours for craneage. 

So if you end up not accepting the quote, you've just blown £300 for Nothing? Is that really how it works?

 

Also, working out a price beforehand on their website is virtually impossible.

Deeper draught boats may be more than their approximate '1m2 equals 1 foot', plus I assume the prep cost has to be added on? In which case, how long is a piece of string?

 

So not only is the pricing very complicated, with everything needing to be added up, but you still don't know the exact price until they have £300 of yours, and until they have decided if they want to take a long time over prep work or not.

 

I like it.

'How much to paint my hull'?

 

'Give me £300 and I will tell you'. 

 

I know they have a very good setup, but that is no excuse for such obscurity.

 

Hopefully those that have been there can tell us it isn't like this.

In which case the website lies! 

 

Can anybody suggest a clear, unobscure boatyard, which does a decent paint job, apart from Glascote?

 

 

 

They don't know how deep your hull is, whether it's fine lined or boxy, whether you want the full depth doing including bow flashes and tunnel bands, or if you only want it done up to the top guard, or what condition it's in. So it doesn't seem unreasonable for them to want the opportunity to measure up before giving a price. But you may already know the depth of your hull, and if not you have the opportunity to make a pretty good estimate while the boat is afloat (and before you've incurred the cranage charge).

Edited September 16, 2023 by David Mack

[Tigerr]

Well, thanks folks. Really useful steers for Debdale and Glascote - I'm enquiring with both and they both look like proper set-ups using top quality product. 

 

[JungleJames]

So, I accept some of you may be used to these practices, and have accepted them. 

 

But for some to go on about tunnel bands. No, that clearly is extra. We aren't on about tunnel bands.

 

Some saying just call them. Yes, but if you are going to have a website, make it user friendly.

 

Some saying you can easily calculate the area. Ok, if you say so. But I'm not going for a swim with a tape measure to work out the exact square meterage.

 

Others on about the condition of the hull. Well if the hull fails, that clearly is extra work. Everybody knows that. We are on about a blast and paint. Nothing more.

 

Some saying: "Every yard is like this".

Sorry, that statement is not true. 

Remember, we are only on about a blast and paint. 

 

I would suggest you look at the two websites in question, and work out which one is clearer. Oh, and with one of the yards, the price is the price. They won't get your boat out the water, mutter under their breath, then turn round to you and say your boat is too deep draughted.

 

The quality of job is not in doubt for either of them. The infrastructure Debdale has is not in question.

 

Only how clear the pricing is, and how clear the website is.

[Tracy D'arth]

You had the answer that you wanted already, why did you ask the question? Don't waste my time.

[JungleJames]

Nope. I never had the answer, hence why I asked the question.

That I thought I made clear. I wanted others, who had experience of Debdale to clarify one way or the other.

 

I apologise if this is a waste of time to you. But it may not be a waste of time to others.

All the info should be out there, so people can make an informed decision.

 

You clearly never needed to respond, so I can only assume you wasted your own time. But I thank you for your response. I'm just sorry the politeness is only flowing one way. Have a good evening.

 

[SUIGENERIS]

 Another vote for Debdale. We had the full works to ours done in 2022 at Debdale. The set up is excellent  and the chaps that actually did the physical work are happy to talk to you and that gives much confidence in their workmanship. Debdale allow you to have a look in by appointment throughout the process, during lunch and tea breaks, so you see all stages.  All done without any drama, prices have risen because of the costs of materials and energy, but we consider has been well worthwhile. They do ask for a mid term inspection to keep up their guarantee.

 

 

[MtB]

4 hours ago, JungleJames said:

So, I accept some of you may be used to these practices, and have accepted them. 

 

But for some to go on about tunnel bands. No, that clearly is extra. We aren't on about tunnel bands.

 

Some saying just call them. Yes, but if you are going to have a website, make it user friendly.

 

Some saying you can easily calculate the area. Ok, if you say so. But I'm not going for a swim with a tape measure to work out the exact square meterage.

 

Others on about the condition of the hull. Well if the hull fails, that clearly is extra work. Everybody knows that. We are on about a blast and paint. Nothing more.

 

Some saying: "Every yard is like this".

Sorry, that statement is not true. 

Remember, we are only on about a blast and paint. 

 

I would suggest you look at the two websites in question, and work out which one is clearer. Oh, and with one of the yards, the price is the price. They won't get your boat out the water, mutter under their breath, then turn round to you and say your boat is too deep draughted.

 

The quality of job is not in doubt for either of them. The infrastructure Debdale has is not in question.

 

Only how clear the pricing is, and how clear the website is.

 

 

I think your expectations are still being coloured by 21st century life where in general, suppliers have millions of customers and can afford to pour vast volumes of money into marketing including a slick website. 

 

Back here in the 1950s (where canal life is stuck) there are probably only about 10,000 potential customers for grit blasting and two pack painting of a narrowboat. And only perhaps 1,000 of those actually bite the bullet and ever have it done. Once every 20 years.

 

Most yards that claim to do it are the Jack of all trades type and don't get to do more than a handful in a year. Debdale on the other had appear to have analysed it properly, invested a £1m or two in the site and plant needed and specialise in it. They have little or no similarly competent competition so are perhaps slightly complacent having cornered the market.

 

Sooner or later someone else will pop up with similar or better investment in the 'product', but in the meantime they are the best available even if it isn't perfect so the decision is yours. Use their good but slightly imperfectly marketed service, or carry on looking for something better. Maybe Sarah at Glascote does it better. I'be had work done there and they are very competent. How does the Glascote website compare with Debdale for the two pack blacking service specifically? Just curious.