TP bromley darwin windlasses

[Melanie b]

Good evening everyone and thank you for allowing me to join 😊 

I'm hoping someone can give me some info on these lovely windlasses. I'm moving home and found them in the shed in a box of old tools, but on closer inspection and a bit of research I'm a bit more enlightened! I've no connection with the waterways nor has any of my family as far as I know! I'm particularly intrigued what the 22ct mark means.. I know what ideally it would mean but I'm dreaming here 😃 thank you in anticipation for any info

[Rob-M]

I think someone has stamped them with the name of their boat and maybe the location where the boat was kept.

 

Don't know why the 22ct stamp.

[MtB]

Well most if not all of that lettering seems to have been done one letter at a time using a set of letter punches. Probably by Mr T P Bromley, owner of NB Water Soldier, so if they get lost someone can return them to him! 

 

The arrows however have been cast in, which I think means they are Cooks windlasses, but others wioll know better than me. 

[matty40s]

A company called Water Travel Limited built 2 boats in the 1970s, Soldier and Commando. I believe they were based in Wolverhampton at the now Napton hire base at Autherley Junction. The name on the windlass may well have been the first owners name.

[David Mack]

They look like a couple of nice bronze windlasses, one narrow canal size and one wide canal. And 22 carat bronze too!

The canalplan boat listing does not show a boat "Water Soldier" which either means the boat (under that name at least) is very old, or that it is post 2013 (the most recent records listed).

I agree that the lettering looks to be amateur done with a set of letter punches, with no attempt to get the letters in straight lines. Probably done by the boat owner.

'Westcliffe' appears to be no 107 Manor Road, Darwen.

https://www.mycounciltax.org.uk/results?postcode=bb32sn

 

[David Schweizer]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

Well most if not all of that lettering seems to have been done one letter at a time using a set of letter punches. Probably by Mr T P Bromley, owner of NB Water Soldier, so if they get lost someone can return them to him! 

 

The arrows however have been cast in, which I think means they are Cooks windlasses, but others wioll know better than me. 

 

Not Cookes, they always had a pipeclay impression, and often G H COOKE stamped on them.  My research notes indictate that Lawrence Hogg identified Bronze windlasses with an arrow impressiom as having been made by Selwyn Jordan of Keays Dock, and that they are quite rare.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by David Schweizer

[Melanie b]

Thanks so far everyone! Love this type of collective thinking! Some interesting thoughts so far, keep them coming. 

I've just had a wild idea about the 22ct mark...bear with me! You know like the ceremonial ground breaking spades presented to dignitaries...would it be along those lines, like a retiring lock keeper gift etc. Obviously in gold plate on bronze? (Although the mark is the same as on a piece of my jewellery but without the city and date stamp, if it did mean 22ct plate it would say plated in theory to be assay legit)...just an idea, shoot me now 😉 

[magnetman]

I agree with David they are probably Selwyn Jordan windlasses. The arrow is a trademark but others could have used it. 

 

I wonder if whoever added 22ct had a bit of a sense of humour about it all. 

 

Nice lock keys. Is the 22ct one considerably heavier and always shiny??

 

 

[Melanie b]

5 hours ago, magnetman said:

I agree with David they are probably Selwyn Jordan windlasses. The arrow is a trademark but others could have used it. 

 

I wonder if whoever added 22ct had a bit of a sense of humour about it all. 

 

Nice lock keys. Is the 22ct one considerably heavier and always shiny??

 

 

I notice on old threads you mentioned 22ct windlasses and mentioned a blogg on the subject...did it go anywhere? 

Incorrectly hallmarking has always carried huge penalties from the Assay Office so they'd must have been brave to stamp it for the crack 🙂 the 22ct one is the smaller gauge so is slightly lighter, they've both got an identical bronze patina 

There's also a postcode stamp in the same font as the other writing BD23 3NT which comes out to just 2 properties directly on the L / L Canal, one of which is Lock House...

Intriguing to me...beautiful tactile things 

 

[spud]

27 minutes ago, Melanie b said:

There's also a postcode stamp in the same font as the other writing BD23 3NT which comes out to just 2 properties directly on the L / L Canal, one of which is Lock House...

That is where mr bromley lived. his boat was water soldier ex-water willow ex back end of butty indus

[Melanie b]

16 minutes ago, spud said:

That is where mr bromley lived. his boat was water soldier ex-water willow ex back end of butty indus

Really? The postcode stamp is on a different part of them to the 'Tp bromley, westcliffe manorroad Darwen lancs' stamp and doesn't relate to that address at all? 🤷‍♀️

[spud]

4 minutes ago, Melanie b said:

Really? The postcode stamp is on a different part of them to the 'Tp bromley, westcliffe manorroad Darwen lancs' stamp and doesn't relate to that address at all? 🤷‍♀️

it was a question not a statement but i forgot the question mak

[Melanie b]

11 minutes ago, spud said:

it was a question not a statement but i forgot the question mak

Ah, thank you 

[David Mack]

If the windlasses have both the Westcliffe address and Lock House postcode, perhaps Mr Bromley lived at both addresses at different times. It would be a bit difficult to erase the old address when moving house.

[MtB]

Fascinating how our interests shift and develop as we grow older. 

 

Form being a highly successful pop musician to canal historian in the case of the OP 

 

 

 

 

[Melanie b]

3 hours ago, MtB said:

Fascinating how our interests shift and develop as we grow older. 

 

Form being a highly successful pop musician to canal historian in the case of the OP 

 

 

 

 

🤣🤣🤣 but I'm not scary 🤣

[Graham_Robinson]

Musician? Think that's going a bit far and bringing the integrity of this forum crashing to it's knees
Viva Forever Canal World Forum.............

[StephenA]

On 15/08/2023 at 21:13, David Mack said:

They look like a couple of nice bronze windlasses, one narrow canal size and one wide canal. And 22 carat bronze too!

The canalplan boat listing does not show a boat "Water Soldier" which either means the boat (under that name at least) is very old, or that it is post 2013 (the most recent records listed).

I agree that the lettering looks to be amateur done with a set of letter punches, with no attempt to get the letters in straight lines. Probably done by the boat owner.

'Westcliffe' appears to be no 107 Manor Road, Darwen.

https://www.mycounciltax.org.uk/results?postcode=bb32sn

 

 

There are boats later than 2013 in there - there just isn't anything for the past couple of years because of work pressures. Now I have a new job which doesn't involve being on call 24/7 alternate weeks I'm hoping to get a new set of data from CRT and get it loaded.

[magnetman]

I always wondered why nobody else did the boat listing. 

 

Presumably you (canalplan) have deliberate random errors to stop someone else just copying your text. 

 

 

[StephenA]

1 minute ago, magnetman said:

I always wondered why nobody else did the boat listing. 

 

Presumably you (canalplan) have deliberate random errors to stop someone else just copying your text. 

 

 

 

No - we get the data from CRT. and its usually a complete mess (like repeated licence information, or just crap data) which we need to clean and then merge into the existing data set - so a boat name with the same index will get bits of data replaced, a new boat name on an existing index will get added as a new boat - if the names are obviously different (can't go on not being identical because of the quality of the data so we have to apply Soundexing and Metaphones to names and then cross check)

 

But yes people leach the data - I've had to put code into stop people basically hitting the site with consecutive CRT licence numbers.

[Lady M]

12 minutes ago, StephenA said:

 

There are boats later than 2013 in there - there just isn't anything for the past couple of years because of work pressures. Now I have a new job which doesn't involve being on call 24/7 alternate weeks I'm hoping to get a new set of data from CRT and get it loaded.

Can you please tell the forum when the database has been updated.

[StephenA]

Just now, Lady C said:

Can you please tell the forum when the database has been updated.

 

When I get round to it - we're rebuilding the whole of the login/session/user account system at the moment and have a pile of bugs that need to be worked on.

 

Don't forget that we do this for "fun"

[Lady M]

Yes, of course, but the information therein will be more useful when updated.

[David Mack]

21 minutes ago, StephenA said:

There are boats later than 2013 in there - there just isn't anything for the past couple of years because of work pressures.

Thanks Stephen. I had assumed that CRT were no longer supplying the data. It was originally obtained under Freedom of Information, but I thought CRT had argued that as a charity, rather than a government organisation, FoI didn't apply to them.

[StephenA]

1 minute ago, David Mack said:

Thanks Stephen. I had assumed that CRT were no longer supplying the data. It was originally obtained under Freedom of Information, but I thought CRT had argued that as a charity, rather than a government organisation, FoI didn't apply to them.

 

Well I've had data from them since they became CRT. Oddly enough they don't publish it as a data set (the EA publish theirs) so you have to go and ask them for it and they don't seem to have any way of dumping data from their system.  I'm going to try to find out who to contact as the person I was dealing with isn't there any more (or isn't replying to my emails)