Issues with lithiums in very cold weather?

[rusty69]

Just now, Tony1 said:

 

One has to hope that if one puts in place a system that will manage the functions that they specify in the regs, they will be satisfied- especially if you can demonstrate all of the functions. 

Modern BMSs like the fogstar have other functions, but it doesnt matter if those other functions are not part of the BSS requirements. 

 

But if a BMS is deemed non-compliant simply on the basis that it uses off the shelf components (as opposed to being part of the manufacturer's original assembly), that is effectively going to disqualify almost all of the DIY installs that are based on bare cells, which would be very unfair. 

 

 

I'm not sure it would, if a proprietary BMS could be fitted to most bare cell setups. Mine is bare cells with a JBD type BMS and a motorised switch. 

[ditchcrawler]

Sticking my head above the parapet again. Has anyone actually seen these BSS regs that we need to comply with?

[Tony1]

9 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I'm not sure it would, if a proprietary BMS could be fitted to most bare cell setups. Mine is bare cells with a JBD type BMS and a motorised switch. 

 

Depending on how strong the wording is around only using batteries or cells with suitable or recommended components, they might ask you for evidence that says your installed BMS is suitable for the cells you have.

Also, how do they know your soldering technique is safe and effective, for example, especially if it has a slightly untidy appearance?

I think the whole thing is a massive can of worms that will cause many arguments, much heartache, and a lot of wasted money, when it finally comes into force. 

I mean, there seem to be a couple of rogue inspectors even now who are strongly against the idea of an indoors install, which is just crazy. Imagine the arguments when the regs actually get published. 

 

 

6 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Sticking my head above the parapet again. Has anyone actually seen these BSS regs that we need to comply with?

 

Yes, I think there is a draft version of the proposed regs linked in that earlier thread called 'Solar dump'. 

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Tony1

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

Depending on how strong the wording is around only using batteries or cells with suitable or recommended components, they might ask you for evidence that says your installed BMS is suitable for the cells you have.

 

Do you honestly think that any BSS examiner is going to have the skills, or knowledge, to understand the multitde of DIY (BMS) sytems which may or may not actually achieve what the BSS require. I'd almost 'bet the farm' on the fact it will be a simple tick the box exercise ................

 

"If Lithium batteries are on the boat - Is a proprietary BMS system in place " Yes / No

[rusty69]

I wonder if they will require cell compression. My prismatic cell manufacturer stipulate cells should be compressed. 

 

 

I bet many of these batteries made from eve cells do not. 

Edited July 30, 2023 by rusty69
Prismatic

[nicknorman]

I did wonder about this but as I understand it, cell compression is only of any use after you have abused the cells by overcharging or overdischarging. So I didn’t do it and 2 years later no swelling. What is important is to ensure no movement, to avoid stress being transferred to the cell terminals via the bus bars.

Edited July 30, 2023 by nicknorman

[Tony1]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Do you honestly think that any BSS examiner is going to have the skills, or knowledge, to understand the multitde of DIY (BMS) sytems which may or may not actually achieve what the BSS require. I'd almost 'bet the farm' on the fact it will be a simple tick the box exercise ................

 

"If Lithium batteries are on the boat - Is a proprietary BMS system in place " Yes / No

 

That is my fear, I must admit, and yes it does seem likely they'll be forced to adopt a simplistic approach, if only from a lack of detailed knowledge. 

On the other hand, I maintain that with the use of victron components, I can demonstrate within a few minutes that my setup meets all of the BMS-type requirements in the (draft) regs. 

 

But if they really do refuse to sign off on any BMS systems that have elements of DIY construction, then there's not a lot us punters can do about it, except write off a grand or two, and if the funds are available, go out and buy fogstars or similar. 

 

 

[magnetman]

25 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

 

Yes, I think there is a draft version of the proposed regs linked in that earlier thread called 'Solar dump'. 

 

Did you mean a daft version? 

 

It will be interesting to see what happens. Lots of boats use lithium batteries of various types these days. 

 

What should be the advice? Buy proper 'drop in' replacements? Don't rely too much on your batteries? 

 

Hide them ? 

 

 

 

 

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

I did wonder about this but as I understand it, cell compression is only of any use after you have abused the cells by overcharging or overdischarging. So I didn’t do it and 2 years later no swelling. What is important is to ensure no movement, to avoid stress being transferred to the cell terminals via the bus bars.

Never the less, if the cell manufacturers stipulate cell compression should be part of an installation, the BSS cannot then ignore that. Shirley? 

[magnetman]

Will lithium batteries end up like bottled gas. A floating time bomb.

[rusty69]

I don't actually know if all manufactures say that compression is required. Pretty sure my Thundersky ones do (or did when I looked into it). 

 

I too didn't really think it necessary, but did it anyway because it was relatively easy to do. 

 

But what about these guys at eg fogstar etc who assemble cells into a battery, stick a BMS on and bobs yer uncle. 

 

Or maybe eve don't stipulate compression, or maybe they are compressed. 

Edited July 30, 2023 by rusty69

[Tony1]

Just now, rusty69 said:

Never the less, if the cell manufacturers stipulate cell compression should be part of an installation, the BSS cannot then ignore that. Shirley? 

 

Maybe the BSS inspectors will never find out about it.

They're not likely to go through the list of requirements from the cell manufacturers in order to verify that you've built the batteries according to the manufacturer's spec- or so you would imagine?

And there's not likely to be specific checklist item about compression- at least not the in the first iteration of the regs. 

 

 

[MtB]

7 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I don't actually know if all manufactures say that compression is required. Pretty sure my Thundersky ones do (or did when I looked into it). 

 

I too didn't really think it necessary, but did it anyway because it was relatively easy to do. 

 

But what about these guys at eg fogstar etc who assemble cells into a battery, stick a BMS on and bobs yer uncle. 

 

Or maybe eve don't stipulate compression, or maybe they are compressed. 

 

i'd suggest that Fogstar et al would say there is no need for cell compression in a proprietary drop-in LiFePO4 battery as the internal BMS will prevent the gross abuse (combined overcharging and overheating IIRC) that leads to them going egg-shaped and snapping the internal wiring. 

 

My own opinion is all electronic systems are capable of a wide variety of failures.

 

 

 

[magnetman]

I once bought a table lamp from a car boot sale and placed it reasonably close to my brand new telly (1992) and when switched on the lamp sent an arc across to the telly and the latter burst into flames. 

 

Really mad it was. Dodgy old house with bad wiring I think. That was before the boats. 

[rusty69]

8 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

i'd suggest that Fogstar et al would say there is no need for cell compression in a proprietary drop-in LiFePO4 battery as the internal BMS will prevent the gross abuse (combined overcharging and overheating IIRC) that leads to them going egg-shaped and snapping the internal wiring. 

 

My own opinion is all electronic systems are capable of a wide variety of failures.

 

 

 

But would the definitive answer not lie with the manufacturer of the cells, not those that assemble them into a pack, particularly if said manufacturer also stipulates the use of a BMS. 

 

I. E, will the BSS first port of call be the cell manufacturer. Asking for a friend. 

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I once bought a table lamp from a car boot sale and placed it reasonably close to my brand new telly (1992) and when switched on the lamp sent an arc across to the telly and the latter burst into flames. 

 

Really mad it was. Dodgy old house with bad wiring I think. That was before the boats. 

I just read this on the Eve site, you better watch out pal:

 

 

"It is forbidden to use it in places with strong static electricity and strong magnetic fields; otherwise it will easily damage the battery safety protection device and bring hidden dangers of safety" 

Edited July 30, 2023 by rusty69

[Tony1]

2 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I once bought a table lamp from a car boot sale and placed it reasonably close to my brand new telly (1992) and when switched on the lamp sent an arc across to the telly and the latter burst into flames. 

 

Really mad it was. Dodgy old house with bad wiring I think. That was before the boats. 

 

That sounds more like some kind of Ghostbusters sh*t. I bet you crossed the streams.

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Tony1

[MtB]

1 minute ago, rusty69 said:

But would the definitive answer not lie with the manufacturer of the cells, not those that assemble them into a pack, particularly if said manufacturer also stipulates the use of a BMS. 

 

 

This is getting surreal.

 

The definitive answer (other than 42) will depend on the question, which we don't know yet. 

 

 

Why not just wait for the ten years it will take the BSS office to decide on the spec? That's about how low it took for CO monitors to get included after they became commonplace, which we can probably use as a guide! 

 

 

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

This is getting surreal.

 

The definitive answer (other than 42) will depend on the question, which we don't know yet. 

 

 

Is that a yes, no or maybe then? 

[MtB]

1 minute ago, rusty69 said:

Is that a yes, no or maybe then? 

 

Yes.

 

I mean no, maybe. 

 

 

 

 

[Tony1]

14 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

This is getting surreal.

 

The definitive answer (other than 42) will depend on the question, which we don't know yet. 

 

 

 

 

Au contraire, mon ami. We have an idea of the question, which is roughly this: what are the rules that must be followed to ensure a safe installation of lithium batteries? Bearing in mind common sense, and that we are not living in the middle of a nuclear power station or a space ship.

 

From the draft regs, I've already seen a few things which look more like advice about how to make your batteries last longer. 

Other requirements appear more suited to handling plutonium (or perhaps nitroglycerine) than lithium batteries. 

There are several things which appear to assume that LiFeP04's pose the same level of risk as other lithium types, which is patently incorrect. 

So as usual, the blinkered office-bound stuffed shirt jobsworths are already creeping the scope from essential safety into 'how to be nice to your batteries'.

I'll be surprised if the title isn't 'Duck and Cover- how to survive an attack by lithium batteries'.  

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Tony1

[rusty69]

16 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

i'd suggest that Fogstar et al would say there is no need for cell compression in a proprietary drop-in LiFePO4 battery as the internal BMS will prevent the gross abuse (combined overcharging and overheating IIRC) that leads to them going egg-shaped and snapping the internal wiring. 

 

My own opinion is all electronic systems are capable of a wide variety of failures.

 

 

 

I hope these drop in assemblers learnt a thing or two from mastervolt. Granted, it was a few years back, but makes interesting reading (link courtesy of the magnetic one) 

 

https://pbase.com/mainecruising/mastervolt_lifepo4_autopsy

 

 

 

[nicknorman]

56 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

I don't actually know if all manufactures say that compression is required. Pretty sure my Thundersky ones do (or did when I looked into it). 

 

I too didn't really think it necessary, but did it anyway because it was relatively easy to do. 

 

But what about these guys at eg fogstar etc who assemble cells into a battery, stick a BMS on and bobs yer uncle. 

 

Or maybe eve don't stipulate compression, or maybe they are compressed. 

There was no mention of cell compression from the suppliers of my cells, just that usage with a BMS was mandatory and avoid putting stress on the cell terminals. I remain of the opinion that cell compression is only needed if you are going to abuse the cells, and I prefer the “let’s not abuse the cells” strategy.

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, nicknorman said:

There was no mention of cell compression from the suppliers of my cells, just that usage with a BMS was mandatory and avoid putting stress on the cell terminals. I remain of the opinion that cell compression is only needed if you are going to abuse the cells, and I prefer the “let’s not abuse the cells” strategy.

Fair enough. I don't intend to intentionally abuse my ones, but the compression is there if that ever accidentally happens. Granted, I might have bigger problems on my hands if that ever happens. 

[Tony1]

 

On the original issue of keeping lithiums warm when they've been banished to the engine bay, and pursuant to Nick's rather smart idea of using the warm (and free) cabin air, I've found this inexpensive and low powered fan. 

It screws onto the cabin wall and sucks out air through a downward 1.25 inch pipe- and then into the engine bay via some suitable ducting tube which I dont yet have. 

I am hoping it will push enough warm air from the cabin into the battery box that the lithiums will be kept above zero. 

Although I only see this being used on the odd very cold night, I could plug it in via a timer and set it to start at say 5am, and that way the battery box will be well above zero by the time I approach the kettle, and we should never get into the territory of the chargers being disconnected. 

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00ZRBCCV2/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_2?smid=A3NZ6AYGZT0ZJ6&psc=1

 

It just seems to make sense to use the freely available cabin air, as opposed to using power from within the batteries themselves, that will have to be replaced by running the engine, or using a genny. 

 

PS- if anyone knows a way to stop the deadly engine bay spiders from crawling along the pipe and into the bedroom, do tell. 

Some sort of non-return flap might foil the blighters. 

 

Also, if a pipe from the engine bay into the cabin is a safety issue (other than the obvious risk of being eaten by spiders), I'm better off finding out now. 

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Tony1

[ditchcrawler]

48 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

 

Au contraire, mon ami. We have an idea of the question, which is roughly this: what are the rules that must be followed to ensure a safe installation of lithium batteries? Bearing in mind common sense, and that we are not living in the middle of a nuclear power station or a space ship.

 

From the draft regs, I've already seen a few things which look more like advice about how to make your batteries last longer. 

Other requirements appear more suited to handling plutonium (or perhaps nitroglycerine) than lithium batteries. 

There are several things which appear to assume that LiFeP04's pose the same level of risk as other lithium types, which is patently incorrect. 

So as usual, the blinkered office-bound stuffed shirt jobsworths are already creeping the scope from essential safety into 'how to be nice to your batteries'.

I'll be surprised if the title isn't 'Duck and Cover- how to survive an attack by lithium batteries'.  

 

Can you please post a link to these draft regs as I can't find them anywhere including a google search under boat safety  scheme lithium. I couldn't find a thread called solar dump on here ether.