Think I might be in trouble.

[david909]

1 minute ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Depends on the shaft diameter but they are heading towards £400 inc vat.

To change it to a cheaper coupling would be no cheaper as you would need new gearbox and shaft flanges to fit say an R&D flex coupling.

Who is this boatyard? 

If you cant afford repairs, sell the boat as it is. Ask me and I can make you an offer in cash and come and tow it away.

Just looked at prices. Anything from £260 all the way up to £500+

 Plus labour.

 I’ll see what they have to say when they get back to me.

Not ready to give up just yet. 
 
 

[Mike Hurley]

Are you a member of RCR?

River and canal rescue.

[david909]

2 minutes ago, Mike Hurley said:

Are you a member of RCR?

River and canal rescue.

Alas not.

[Tracy D'arth]

1 minute ago, david909 said:

Just looked at prices. Anything from £260 all the way up to £500+

 Plus labour.

 I’ll see what they have to say when they get back to me.

Not ready to give up just yet. 
 
 

Get a price from them.

Find out which part number they are quoting for and price it yourself from the suppliers, ASAP or Aquafax or Midland Chandlers.

Its an hours work to change it by a guy who knows how to do it. Don't let them charge you more.

Stop being a mug and get savvy.

Offer to buy it stands, let me know.

Just now, Tracy D'arth said:

Get a price from them.

Find out which part number they are quoting for and price it yourself from the suppliers, ASAP or Aquafax or Midland Chandlers.

Its an hours work to change it by a guy who knows how to do it. Don't let them charge you more.

Stop being a mug and get savvy.

Offer to buy it stands, let me know.

Measure the shaft diameter, as accurately as you can with an adjustable wrench and a ruler/tape measure. Let me know, I will find you a coupling at the right price.

[david909]

Just now, Tracy D'arth said:

Get a price from them.

Find out which part number they are quoting for and price it yourself from the suppliers, ASAP or Aquafax or Midland Chandlers.

Its an hours work to change it by a guy who knows how to do it. Don't let them charge you more.

Stop being a mug and get savvy.

Offer to buy it stands, let me know.

So as I know what my options are…

60 foot, 1994 build, new steel sheet across the whole of the hull.

what sort of offer?

[Tracy D'arth]

Just now, david909 said:

So as I know what my options are…

60 foot, 1994 build, new steel sheet across the whole of the hull.

what sort of offer?

£18 to £48 depending on who built the hull, inspection and condition.  Bear in mind that over plated base plates severely reduce the price and selling potential.  If you want to send me the full details, builder, fitter out, engine & gearbox spec etc. and some photos I can get more accurate.

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, david909 said:

Alas not.

 

Do you know who actually owned the boat (not who was selling it) ?

 

Some brokers take part exchanges, or do cash buys for people in financial difficulties, so did the Broker own it, or was it a private individual selling and using the broker to 'broker' the deal ?

 

From what you have previously said about the broker saying 'we will fix this, we will fix that' I've a feeling that it may be broker-owned which puts you in a ve VERY strong legal position under the 2015 Consumer Rights Act.

 

On the reverse side - you have absolutely no comeback on anyone if it was a 'private sale'. If it burst into flames when you turned the key (after you had paid for it), or if it sunk 6 feet away from the mooring - no protection, no comeback.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Do you know who actually owned the boat (not who was selling it) ?

 

Some brokers take part exchanges, or do cash buys for people in financial difficulties, so did the Broker own it, or was it a private individual selling and using the broker to 'broker' the deal ?

 

From what you have previously said about the broker saying 'we will fix this, we will fix that' I've a feeling that it may be broker-owned which puts you in a ve VERY strong legal position under the 2015 Consumer Rights Act.

 

On the reverse side - you have absolutely no comeback on anyone if it was a 'private sale'. If it burst into flames when you turned the key (after you had paid for it), or if it sunk 6 feet away from the mooring - no protection, no comeback.

Looking at where he bought it from “Barton Turns” probably they’ve bought it off one of their Moorers, who was too old, maybe owed moorings and let the boat fall into disrepair. I doubt they would of paid much for it, as this is what large Marina’s do, then they sell them to nieve young kids in their 20’s 30’s. We’ve all seen it, on here, social media and on the canals. Reading everything on here this looks exactly the same, sorry to say.
 

[Paul C]

It would be interesting to see the survey report on the boat - the OP, I believe, had a survey done. It would either say (reading between the lines) "don't buy this boat!!!" or the survey was clearly misleading or doesn't reflect the condition of the boat. That is where I believe the OP's focus should be, on any attempt to get money back.

[david909]

I need to go through the sales brochure and compare it to the survey and what was found during repairs. The yard said nothing they found would have been noticed in a survey. The broker just lied and lied and lied, I realise now.

The yard said it had been a static live aboard for years. I didn’t know to ask, thinking boat = travelling.

 

So, utter humiliation and excruciating lessons aside. Now the boat’s been out and about these two issues have appeared, perhaps expectedly, only one of which will cost me and that not too bad. 
I suppose the issue is every time something is replaced the next weakest thing then fails? How much further could this go?

Prop and shaft replaced, engine out, cleaned, hoses and some gaskets replaced, new engine mounts, clean oil, cleaned diesel tank, all done, new thermostat coming (same as puegot 205 apparently) and now this coupling.

[Tracy D'arth]

4 minutes ago, david909 said:

I need to go through the sales brochure and compare it to the survey and what was found during repairs. The yard said nothing they found would have been noticed in a survey. The broker just lied and lied and lied, I realise now.

The yard said it had been a static live aboard for years. I didn’t know to ask, thinking boat = travelling.

 

So, utter humiliation and excruciating lessons aside. Now the boat’s been out and about these two issues have appeared, perhaps expectedly, only one of which will cost me and that not too bad. 
I suppose the issue is every time something is replaced the next weakest thing then fails? How much further could this go?

Prop and shaft replaced, engine out, cleaned, hoses and some gaskets replaced, new engine mounts, clean oil, cleaned diesel tank, all done, new thermostat coming (same as puegot 205 apparently) and now this coupling.

Regrettably it can go on and on. There is much more to go wrong with a boat. You have to decide how far you are prepared to go which will depend on your resources to keep paying out unless you can do repairs yourself. What mechanical, plumbing, electrical, metalwork and woodwork  skills do you have?

So decide what the boat stands you at and how much more you are prepared to spend then the big decision.

Do you keep and spend or cut your losses and sell for whatever you can get?  If you are still in love with the boat it will be difficult.

[david909]

The issue comes down to me being told by the broker that the repairs might amount to £16k. On the back of that I made an offer of £13k below asking price because of that £16k some were things I intended to tackle myself thinking it would be a good way to learn.

The offer was accepted. Also on the basis that I was promised that the work would be arranged by the broker meaning I would collect a repaired boat.

All on the phone of course though I might have an email trail asking repeatedly about the promised work. 
 

For the record, if it matters, I’m 58.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

27 minutes ago, Paul C said:

It would be interesting to see the survey report on the boat - the OP, I believe, had a survey done. It would either say (reading between the lines) "don't buy this boat!!!" or the survey was clearly misleading or doesn't reflect the condition of the boat. That is where I believe the OP's focus should be, on any attempt to get money back.

 If you read the OP’s opening post, it looks like he basically ignored the Surveyor and the Survey report and listened to the Broker as he had “Fallen in Love” with the boat, here’s what he wrote:

 

“The brochure gave the appearance that the boat was in great shape. The survey I had done revealed a somewhat grittier picture, but I'd fallen in love and, on the strength of advice from the boat broker that the work that needed doing would cost me around £13-16k, I negotiated a stiff price reduction and went ahead with the purchase”

Edited September 10, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[david909]

2 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Regrettably it can go on and on. There is much more to go wrong with a boat. You have to decide how far you are prepared to go which will depend on your resources to keep paying out unless you can do repairs yourself. What mechanical, plumbing, electrical, metalwork and woodwork  skills do you have?

So decide what the boat stands you at and how much more you are prepared to spend then the big decision.

Do you keep and spend or cut your losses and sell for whatever you can get?  If you are still in love with the boat it will be difficult.

It’s even more complicated than that. Suffice to say, it’s better to be sitting on a broken narrow boat than where I was before. 
This is supposed to be a new home. I don’t mind things that are a bit clunky and not Grade A perfect. Very much like me. I’ve been in a few boats and looked at many dozens. None looked like this. What price aesthetics though? And being too trusting. 
I never learned to drive you see, so zero experience with with buying second hand vehicles.

[IanD]

A lot of schadenfreude going on here -- the OP knew the boat had problems and negotiated a big drop in price which he thought (and was told) would be enough to pay for them, to get a boat that he wanted. Isn't this what has often been suggested as the correct approach on this very forum?

 

And it's still not clear that he got this wrong -- yes he's had to do various expensive repairs, but unless these exceed £13k then there wasn't anything obviously wrong with his decision. And if they do cost more -- well, how many posters on here have found that boat repairs *always* cost more than you think?

 

The fact that the surveyor/broker/boatyard may have screwed him over is a separate problem -- and again not one unknown to many on the canals, there do seem to be a fair number of dodgy operators of all kinds around... 😞

Edited September 10, 2023 by IanD

[LadyG]

2 hours ago, david909 said:

I sent a video of the engine running, with forward/reverse shift being used to the engineer. The engine side is fine.  But no rotation seems to pass to the prop. He said, “impact”, but there were none. No anything other than suddenly no propellor.
Yesterday it was the thermostat that failed. The engine’s coolant tank was boiling.

I collected the boat on Friday, after being told “all boat systems are working, all work completed”, which included an engine service!

This is awfull, sending you a hug. ❤️

Make sure you write everything down day to day, its so easy to get mixed up with all these problems.

Send them an email, stating what they said ,  and tell them to get it sorted inside five working days. Tell them where you are

Try to keep calm.

 

1 hour ago, david909 said:

Alas not.

Even if he was, I can't see this is an advantage . Stephanie [RCR] talks the talk, but you don't need to be a member 'as they have a commercial arm , if it will be profitable and they can fix it they'll tell you .

Get your surveyor to advise, hes  supposed to be a professional, paid by you 

PS would you care to name him, so others can swerve him.

Edited September 10, 2023 by LadyG

[david909]

I don’t think the surveyor is at fault. 

[Tracy D'arth]

My personal advice, from previous and ongoing experience, avoid RCR at all costs.

 

With a few spanners you could change this coupling yourself. We can tell you how.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Tracy D'arth

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

My personal advice, from previous and ongoing experience, avoid RCR at all costs.

 

With a few spanners you could change this coupling yourself. We can tell you how.

 

I'm worried about that weird-looking stern gland arrangement. I'm wondering what's under that rubber boot. Can't be enough room for a conventional stuffing box and there is no visible method of greasing it. Is it a Vetus stern gland or variant?

 

This might be the next point of failure and might be worth addressing before spaffing £500 on a new CentreFlex. If a new sterntube needs welding into place then options other than Centreflex might arise. 

 

ISTR the OP mentioning one item of work done was a new propshaft. I'm wondering why this was needed. Or maybe it wasn't.

 

 

[Tracy D'arth]

25 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

I'm worried about that weird-looking stern gland arrangement. I'm wondering what's under that rubber boot. Can't be enough room for a conventional stuffing box and there is no visible method of greasing it. Is it a Vetus stern gland or variant?

 

This might be the next point of failure and might be worth addressing before spaffing £500 on a new CentreFlex. If a new sterntube needs welding into place then options other than Centreflex might arise. 

 

ISTR the OP mentioning one item of work done was a new propshaft. I'm wondering why this was needed. Or maybe it wasn't.

 

 

Its a Volvo stern gland with a lip seals, maintenance free but need burping when fitted. Reliable.

 

Volvo seal

The Volvo seal is entirely constructed from rubber, combining the hose that attaches to the stern tube with lip seals that prevent leakage of water into the boat. An internal bearing is water lubricated while the lip seals need to be greased occasionally from a small sachet available from the manufacturer. The lips run directly on the shaft, which needs to be smooth and damage free. Volvo seals are reliable and long-lasting, a life of 10 years being common.   The seal is not vented in any way. On immersing the seal, whether at first launch or after drying on a tide, air will accumulate in the bearing. Running the shaft in this condition will cause a squealing noise and rapid wear. It is necessary to ‘burp’ the seal, compressing it in the lips area by hand to allow air to be dispelled. A small amount of water should be allowed into the boat to ensure that no air remains. A shaft seal would normally be replaced with the boat on the hard. It is possible to change a Volvo seal (or most other types) afloat, as  this video shows. Not advisable without some experience of doing it in easier circumstances.

Pix Courtesey of Cox Engineering web site.

 

What I can see of the shaft is very clean, much cleaner than the rest of the stern gear. So it probably has been changed but why with the Volvo seal is another matter, it can't have been grooved by wear.

I wonder if the Centafex was damaged by "someone" belting the prop off the shaft and then wrecking the threaded end of the shaft necessitating its replacement. There is no plumber block thrust bearing.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Tracy D'arth

[___]

9 hours ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Looking at where he bought it from “Barton Turns” probably they’ve bought it off one of their Moorers, who was too old, maybe owed moorings and let the boat fall into disrepair. I doubt they would have mpaid much for it, as this is what large Marina’s do, then they sell them to nieve young kids in their 20’s 30’s. We’ve all seen it, on here, social media and on the canals. Reading everything on here this looks exactly the same, sorry to say.
 

Removed following clarification of the broker

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Captain Pegg

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

48 minutes ago, Captain Pegg said:

The boat sales at Barton Turns is part of Lakeland Leisure Boat Sales which is managed as a separate entity from the marina businesses albeit outwardly it appears to be the same entity.

It could be an ex-moorers boat but they also broker and deal a wide range of boats including moving them between sites to manage the available stock.

 

  Looking at Lakeland Leisure they seam to oversee/run the whole Marina looking at their website(linked below), they also have “Partnered Marina’s” where they operate a brokerage/boat sales office only.

  I doubt they moved this boat very far reading all it’s issues. So still most likely one of the old moored boats that had been sat there for years, as this was also mentioned previously in one of the OPs posts when he said “The yard said it had been a static live aboard for years. I didn’t know to ask, thinking boat = travelling”

 

https://www.lakelandleisureboatsales.co.uk/our-marinas

 

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[___]

6 hours ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

  Looking at Lakeland Leisure they seam to oversee/run the whole Marina looking at their website(linked below), they also have “Partnered Marina’s” where they operate a brokerage/boat sales office only.

  I doubt they moved this boat very far reading all it’s issues. So still most likely one of the old moored boats that had been sat there for years, as this was also mentioned previously in one of the OPs posts when he said “The yard said it had been a static live aboard for years. I didn’t know to ask, thinking boat = travelling”

 

https://www.lakelandleisureboatsales.co.uk/our-marinas

 

 

Removed following clarification of the broker.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Captain Pegg

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

1 hour ago, Captain Pegg said:

Whereas I know that the majority of Barton’s stock was taken there by me. This boat is one of the exceptions.

 But we’re not talking about their other stock, we’re talking about this boat which seams to not moved for a while so likely an ex moored boat at Barton Turns, which seams to have been bought and later sold by Lakelandleisure brokerage. So since you’ve done work for Lakelandleisure boat sales. Do they run the moorings, workshops and facilities as implied on their website under “our Marina’s”? As last time I spoke to M***🏎 he implied that they were now running the place, along with Great Haywood.

Edited September 10, 2023 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Barneyp]

3 hours ago, LadyG said:

...............

Get your surveyor to advise, hes  supposed to be a professional, paid by you 

PS would you care to name him, so others can swerve him.

The survey (and purchase) were some time ago, I don't think the surveyor is obligated to give on going advise for the length of your ownership. From what the OP has said there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the survey, it was clear that there was work that needed doing.

The problem seems to be with the broker (who may also have been the owner) convincing the OP to buy the boat with possibly false information about the cost and ease of the necessary work, and with the yard who at best failed to communicate with the OP and didn't prioritise the work, and at worst may have carried out and charged for unnecessary work.

 

If the Broker was actually the owner then in theory the OP could take them to court for a refund or compensation, in reality the evidence to win in court may not exist or at least not be easy to find, and the amount of work and cost to mount the claim may be excessive, only the OP can make that decision.

 

I think the main lesson to be learned is that although buying a canal boat is never a totally logical or financially driven decision, it isn't a decision that should be made purely from the heart. Listen to the surveyor and get independent quotes or estimates for all recommended work before making an offer, remember the broker is working for the seller not you, and if you are paying for work in a yard make regular visits to inspect the work. This isn't intended as criticism of the OP, just a summary of lessons learned for others reading the thread.