C&RT License Survey

[Arthur Marshall]

8 minutes ago, Bristolfashion said:

But once you've got a King 2B, a Conn 88H and a pBone, what more do you need?

Couple of cornets and a euphonium! I had a Tromba plastic trombone, which was awful. The Playrite euph, on the other hand, and surprisingly, is brilliant.

9 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I like knitting needles. 

I haven't knitted since the hippie workshop in the sixties...

[magnetman]

I don't knit I just really like the needles.

 

Have to pull my hand away with the other one when there is a jar of knitting needles in a cherrytea shop. 

 

The little numbers at the end on some are particularly satisfactory. 

 

 

 

Its a good example of immaculate problem solving. 

[MtB]

9 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I don't knit I just really like the needles.

 

Have to pull my hand away with the other one when there is a jar of knitting needles in a cherrytea shop. 

 

The little numbers at the end on some are particularly satisfactory. 

 

 

Totally agree with all that. I find the same. 

 

My mum was an expert knitter (knitist? knitswoman?) and had a large cylinder her knitting needles lived in. I used to play with them as a small child and each time she started a new jumper or whatever, it was my job to get all the needles out and find a matching pair of needles the size she needed next. So I got very familiar with the numbers on the ends. 

[IanD]

12 hours ago, tree monkey said:

So exactly how many melodeons do you have?

I'm not exactly sure, it depends what counts as a melodeon... 😉

[MtB]

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

I'm not exactly sure, it depends what counts as a melodeon... 😉

 

Well into double figures in that I would imagine. And probably not beginning with a "1"? 

[IanD]

Just now, MtB said:

 

Well into double figures in that I would imagine. And probably not beginning with a "1"? 

Your imagination is running riot... 😉

[MtB]

Just now, IanD said:

Your imagination is running riot... 😉

 

Just going by the number of geetars owned by some I know....

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

Well into double figures in that I would imagine. And probably not beginning with a "1"? 

You really need at least two melodeons, a B/C and a D/G. Then you should have a D/G/A three row and a cajun box. Concertinas don't count, and accordions shouldn't be classed as musical instruments but as offensive weapons, like bagpipes.

1 hour ago, MtB said:

 

Just going by the number of geetars owned by some I know....

Geetars are addictive...

[magnetman]

When old people have them are they callled gitars?

Old pirates have Git Arrrs. 

To be fair the word 'git' is widely misused. 

My younger daughter who is 11 going on 28 told me that her and her sister are in fact my 'gits' because of the etymology. 

[kevinl]

On 15/12/2023 at 22:49, MtB said:

 

I'm struggling to work that out. 

 

Or more accurately, why you are arguing on here. Do you really think anyone with any power to change things reads this? Why not lobby your MP instead? At least you then stand the ghost of a chance of being listened to.

 

 

Round of applause for that comment.

K

[IanD]

13 hours ago, Arthur Marshall said:

You really need at least two melodeons, a B/C and a D/G. Then you should have a D/G/A three row and a cajun box. Concertinas don't count, and accordions shouldn't be classed as musical instruments but as offensive weapons, like bagpipes.

Geetars are addictive...

No B/C, but you forget a Bb/Eb box for playing in flat sessions with lots of brass. And a D/G/acc 3-row for playing tunes in weird keys. And a 4-row C/G/D/A Steirische with helikon basses for playing those jolly mittel-European polkas. And an extra-loud raucous D/G for playing outdoors. And a low G/C for that special sound. And...

[Arthur Marshall]

17 minutes ago, IanD said:

No B/C, but you forget a Bb/Eb box for playing in flat sessions with lots of brass. And a D/G/acc 3-row for playing tunes in weird keys. And a 4-row C/G/D/A Steirische with helikon basses for playing those jolly mittel-European polkas. And an extra-loud raucous D/G for playing outdoors. And a low G/C for that special sound. And...

Of course. Having largely retired from the fray a couple of years ago, I've only got one D/G now. House is mostly full of brass, and my wife's double bass is the main reason we can't go and live on the boat full time, although it does fit horizontally. I accidentally left my last accordion with my son in Cornwall and half hope never to see it again...

[GUMPY]

[magnetman]

If someone plays one of these things badly is it called a Malodeon? 

[cuthound]

On 21/12/2023 at 16:40, ditchcrawler said:

But it could cost some people over £700 a year, if they walk along the towpath to somewhere every day and then back again. Remember how CRT get there numbers.

 

It could cost me twice that just to walk the dog! 😖

[Arthur Marshall]

6 hours ago, magnetman said:

If someone plays one of these things badly is it called a Malodeon? 

Would go nicely with my euphemism.

[Colin Brendan]

On 22/12/2023 at 17:31, IanD said:

 

And regardless of how many boaters didn't like the offered surcharging options, even more didn't like a flat fee rise which you seem to favour.

 

You keep ignoring this, but it's still true.

 

The reason is undoubtedly that CCers and wideboat owners are heavily outnumbered so HMers amd narrowboat owners think they should pay more, and this was made clear in the report.

 

But the majority winning is how votes and elections should work in a democracy, isn't it?

Yet by splitting the anti-ccer-surcharge vote between 2 options, votes on the ccer surcharge option are distorted, and in fact the 60% who voted for options that do not include a ccer surcharge outweigh the 40% that voted for a ccer surcharge.

 

As I've said - at best this survey is a clear indication of lack of support for the CCer surcharge.

 

At worst the survey is completely useless because of it's selective questioning and because it conflates issues rather than dealing with them independently, which means CRT positioning the survey as a key justification for their ccer surcharge in their opening announcement about new license fees is entirely absurd.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Colin Brendan

[magnetman]

I don't think it makes that much difference what the survey said. 

 

The cost of licensing a canal Boat on CRT water is going up if you are a cc er and/or have a Boat over 7ft2 wide and/or have this type of Boat on a permanent mooring. 

 

Its not all about cc ers. The CRT are proportionally taking more money from people who are already paying them the most ie wide Boats on moorings than they are taking from cc ers with narrow Boats. 

 

 

Thats reality. One of the best things to do with reality is deal with it because there isn't anything else. 

 

This really isn't about persecuting cc ers. 

 

 

[peterboat]

17 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I don't think it makes that much difference what the survey said. 

 

The cost of licensing a canal Boat on CRT water is going up if you are a cc er and/or have a Boat over 7ft2 wide and/or have this type of Boat on a permanent mooring. 

 

Its not all about cc ers. The CRT are proportionally taking more money from people who are already paying them the most ie wide Boats on moorings than they are taking from cc ers with narrow Boats. 

 

 

Thats reality. One of the best things to do with reality is deal with it because there isn't anything else. 

 

This really isn't about persecuting cc ers. 

 

 

Or move to another waterway not controlled by CRT 

[Arthur Marshall]

1 hour ago, Colin Brendan said:

Yet by splitting the anti-ccer-surcharge vote between 2 options, votes on the ccer surcharge option are distorted, and in fact the 60% who voted for options that do not include a ccer surcharge outweigh the 40% that voted for a ccer surcharge.

 

As I've said - at best this survey is a clear indication of lack of support for the CCer surcharge.

 

At worst the survey is completely useless because of it's selective questioning and because it conflates issues rather than dealing with them independently, which means CRT positioning the survey as a key justification for their ccer surcharge in their opening announcement about new license fees is entirely absurd.

There's never going to be a majority in favour of paying more, unless yiu canvass the folk getting the money!

I can't believe people are still complaining this survey was useless/meaningless/biased etc. Of course it was, every "consultation" is. The reasons for the surcharge have been pointed out many times. Still, it's winter and the days are short...

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Colin Brendan said:

Yet by splitting the anti-ccer-surcharge vote between 2 options, votes on the ccer surcharge option are distorted, and in fact the 60% who voted for options that do not include a ccer surcharge outweigh the 40% that voted for a ccer surcharge.

 

As I've said - at best this survey is a clear indication of lack of support for the CCer surcharge.

 

At worst the survey is completely useless because of it's selective questioning and because it conflates issues rather than dealing with them independently, which means CRT positioning the survey as a key justification for their ccer surcharge in their opening announcement about new license fees is entirely absurd.

The survey shows a lack of (majority) support for *any* surcharge *or* flat rate increase, because few boaters want to pay more. When faced with the unpalatable question "how do you think boaters should pay more?" the results were:

 

-- The most unpopular option (14%) was a flat rate increase (so 84% didn't think this was the best option).

 

-- The least unpopular option (40%) was a CC surcharge (60% didn't think this was the best option).

 

-- The two widebeam increase options were each in between these two, but combined (= "widebeams should pay more") were less unpopular (46%) than the CC surcharge (54% didn't think these were the best options).

 

In all the 3-way votes, boaters could choose between the status quo (flat-rate increase) and 2 other options chosen from the 3, so they could say whether they'd rather things stayed as they are or *somebody* was surcharged, and if so which surcharge they preferred from the three offered. What happened was that few boaters want the status quo ("everybody pays more equally"), they mostly wanted somebody else to pay more (a surcharge).

 

I really don't understand why you think this is "selective questioning", because it's the best way to find out which of the 4 options boaters as a whole dislike the least -- which was a CC surcharge (40%).

 

All completely unsurprising giving that most boaters are narrowbeam home moorers, so claiming this doesn't represent the "will of boaters" is tilting at windmills -- it *does* represent the view of the majority of boaters, just not CCers or widebeam owners because they're both outnumbered minorities... 😉

Edited December 27, 2023 by IanD

[Momac]

18 minutes ago, IanD said:

All completely unsurprising giving that most boaters are narrowbeam home moorers, so claiming this doesn't represent the "will of boaters" is tilting at windmills -- it *does* represent the view of the majority of boaters, just not CCers or widebeam owners because they're both outnumbered minorities... 😉

Yes the result  was completely predictable.

So the results should have been mathematically adjusted to reflect the relevant population of boats associated with the responses and only boat owners should have been allowed to take part. In the case of multiple owners of one boat then only  one response  per boat should have been permitted.

 

 

[MtB]

39 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

There's never going to be a majority in favour of paying more, unless yiu canvass the folk getting the money!

I can't believe people are still complaining this survey was useless/meaningless/biased etc. Of course it was, every "consultation" is. The reasons for the surcharge have been pointed out many times. Still, it's winter and the days are short...

 

 

I agree with Colin Brendan. It's OUTRAGEOUS that boaters are going to be made to pay for the upkeep of the waters they boat on. 

 

Whatever next? Motorists paying for upkeep of the roads, I bet!

[Arthur Marshall]

6 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Yes the result  was completely predictable.

So the results should have been mathematically adjusted to reflect the relevant population of boats associated with the responses and only boat owners should have been allowed to take part. In the case of multiple owners of one boat then only  one response  per boat should have been permitted.

 

 

What wasn't predicted was how low the CC surcharge was going to be. I'd expected it to be at least the average of the EOG rate, ie about 90% of the licence cost. If I was a CCer, I'd be keeping my head down right now.

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

I agree with Colin Brendan. It's OUTRAGEOUS that boaters are going to be made to pay for the upkeep of the waters they boat on. 

 

Whatever next? Motorists paying for upkeep of the roads, I bet!

I've noticed round here, people are filling in potholes in the roads outside their houses, rather than expecting the council to come and do it.

[MtB]

12 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

 

I've noticed round here, people are filling in potholes in the roads outside their houses, rather than expecting the council to come and do it.

 

Ah but that's a different problem. Motorists pay the guvvermint for road upkeep and the guvvermint gives a bit of it to the local authorities, who them waste it on stuff like diversity officers and housing benefit.