Beta Genset high voltage issue

[Tasemu]

Hi, long time since i've posted here. I have a problem i'm hoping someone can advise me on.

 

I recently purchased a new Victron Multiplus 12/1600/70. I have run into an issue where the unit is not activating charge mode when I run my Beta Genset (BZ482). After much troubleshooting I have found that the genset outputs a voltage hovering around 260v-270v, which is too high for the multiplus to accept. I was hoping someone on here may know a way to adjust the output voltage on the genset so I am able to charge my batteries?

 

Thanks in advance for any and all advice.

[Eeyore]

Is this the voltage from a meter on the control panel or from a multimeter? A multimeter needs to be a “true rms” type, otherwise it may give you the voltage you mention by default.

[Tasemu]

1 minute ago, Eeyore said:

Is this the voltage from a meter on the control panel or from a multimeter? A multimeter needs to be a “true rms” type, otherwise it may give you the voltage you mention by default.

 

true rms multimeter, also confirmed in the victron-connect diagnostics which matches the voltage to the reading on the multimeter.

[GUMPY]

What generator is attached to the Beta, 

BZ482 is the engine type not generator.

It could be one of a few. 

[Tasemu]

10 minutes ago, Loddon said:

What generator is attached to the Beta, 

BZ482 is the engine type not generator.

It could be one of a few. 

 

BL105 or SL105, though i'm not super sure which?

[GUMPY]

BL105 has no adjustment but the engine speed will affect the voltage.

SL105 has an AVR 

so two different animals.

PDF manual and fault finding is below:

https://www.stamford-avk.com/sites/stamfordavk/files/2020-07/BL-SL105-Owners-Manual-English.pdf

[Tasemu]

3 minutes ago, Loddon said:

BL105 has no adjustment but the engine speed will affect the voltage.

SL105 has an AVR 

so two different animals.

PDF manual and fault finding is below:

https://www.stamford-avk.com/sites/stamfordavk/files/2020-07/BL-SL105-Owners-Manual-English.pdf

 

I'm fairly certain it is a BL105 then as I cannot see any AVR on the unit. I have found the speed adjustment screw though. I'm hoping very much that I can adjust it and get a lower voltage out. Will report back with results.

Hoping this picture may help? Unsure what this AVR looks like.

[Tasemu]

EDIT: Just checked an old test certificate, it is an SL105. Does this mean I wont be able to adjust the voltage?

[Tracy D'arth]

Just a question, if you are running the engine to power the generator, why do you need to run the battery charger off 240v as the engine alternator will be charging the batteries?

[Tasemu]

Just now, Tracy D'arth said:

Just a question, if you are running the engine to power the generator, why do you need to run the battery charger off 240v as the engine alternator will be charging the batteries?

 

The generator is attached to its own little engine, It is one unit.

[Tracy D'arth]

Just now, Tasemu said:

 

The generator is attached to its own little engine, It is one unit.

Ah, thank you, it confounded me.  But what does the alternator on the generator engine charge then? If its a separate starter battery for the generator can you not wire it to your battery bank as well?

[Tasemu]

11 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Ah, thank you, it confounded me.  But what does the alternator on the generator engine charge then? If its a separate starter battery for the generator can you not wire it to your battery bank as well?

 

Its a small dc 12v alternator that charges the starter battery for the genset.

[Tasemu]

42 minutes ago, Loddon said:

BL105 has no adjustment but the engine speed will affect the voltage.

SL105 has an AVR 

so two different animals.

PDF manual and fault finding is below:

https://www.stamford-avk.com/sites/stamfordavk/files/2020-07/BL-SL105-Owners-Manual-English.pdf

 

Its strange, I have an SL105 but upon inspection I cannot see an AVR located on the top as pictured here, instead i just see wires coming out of a hole in the top. and into the breaker, then out to the sockets.

[Tracy D'arth]

2 minutes ago, Tasemu said:

 

Its a small dc 12v alternator that charges the starter battery for the genset.

If your cabin battery bank is also 12v I would be using a split charge relay or a VSR to use the output of the generator 12v alternator to assist in charging the batteries rather than converting energy to 240v AC then transforming and rectifying it to 12v to charge the bank thus wasting energy and fuel. The fact it is a small alternator is irrelevant, it will still charge as the generator starter battery will be fully charged in a very short time.

[GUMPY]

Ok 

Best to first check/set the speed of the genset using a tacho like this

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/234769596922?

And adjust only if necessary.

Then look towards checking the AVR.

[Eeyore]

46 minutes ago, Tasemu said:

 

I'm fairly certain it is a BL105 then as I cannot see any AVR on the unit. I have found the speed adjustment screw though. I'm hoping very much that I can adjust it and get a lower voltage out. Will report back with results.

Hoping this picture may help? Unsure what this AVR looks like.

Adjusting the engine speed will change the output frequency; and of course a frequency setting on your meter is the ideal way to set the engine speed.

Edited December 5, 2022 by Eeyore

[Tasemu]

27 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

If your cabin battery bank is also 12v I would be using a split charge relay or a VSR to use the output of the generator 12v alternator to assist in charging the batteries rather than converting energy to 240v AC then transforming and rectifying it to 12v to charge the bank thus wasting energy and fuel. The fact it is a small alternator is irrelevant, it will still charge as the generator starter battery will be fully charged in a very short time.

 

This generator is separate to my main engine (beta 43). i just want to get my generator working with appliances like my multiplus which wont accept a voltage as high as its outputting.

26 minutes ago, Loddon said:

Ok 

Best to first check/set the speed of the genset using a tacho like this

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/234769596922?

And adjust only if necessary.

Then look towards checking the AVR.

 

I was planning on measuring the frequency and then tuning down the engine speed to hopefully have 50hz at ~230v or so. If the frequency is already at 50hz then I can't lower the engine RPM can i?

[GUMPY]

15 minutes ago, Tasemu said:

 

This generator is separate to my main engine (beta 43). i just want to get my generator working with appliances like my multiplus which wont accept a voltage as high as its outputting.

 

I was planning on measuring the frequency and then tuning down the engine speed to hopefully have 50hz at ~230v or so. If the frequency is already at 50hz then I can't lower the engine RPM can i?

Not really, but if its above then the voltage will be as well. When I got mine it was running slow and the voltage was well down.

[jonathanA]

2 hours ago, Tasemu said:

 

Its strange, I have an SL105 but upon inspection I cannot see an AVR located on the top as pictured here, instead i just see wires coming out of a hole in the top. and into the breaker, then out to the sockets.

Item 12 is the brush set so whatever that connects to is the avr. They often have a small screw to adjust the output voltage and  varying engine speed often changes the frequency. 

[Tasemu]

1 hour ago, Loddon said:

Not really, but if its above then the voltage will be as well. When I got mine it was running slow and the voltage was well down.

 

The genset appears to be supplying around 260v at 45hz. So the multiplus seems to sometimes enter charge mode, but often then disconnects almost immediately. Also the voltage does seem to jump around a little bit, sometimes down to 240v.

17 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

Item 12 is the brush set so whatever that connects to is the avr. They often have a small screw to adjust the output voltage and  varying engine speed often changes the frequency. 

 

Am i required to open up the alternator to access it? That may prove tricky with space limitations.

[GUMPY]

Check and set the engine speed using the tacho I linked to,  first thing it says in the fault finding. Engine speed will probably be 3000 but might be higher at 3600. This can be double checked against the frequency, if you have a frequency meter. Do this with nothing connected otherwise you could damage the connected items.

[jonathanA]

1 hour ago, Tasemu said:

Am i required to open up the alternator to access it? That may prove tricky with space limitations.

Probably. If its in the 2 -3 Kva range the Avr is often fitted under the cover on the end of the alternator.  But your diagram doesn't seem to show it, so maybe it's external. your engine picture  doesn't really show anything that helps eg the alternator itself.

Edited December 5, 2022 by jonathanA
Mino typo

[Eeyore]

The avr is attached to the same bracket as the brush gear, under the end cover. The box on top of the alternator containing the sockets and circuit breaker is fitted by Beta.

[IanD]

5 hours ago, Tasemu said:

 

The genset appears to be supplying around 260v at 45hz. So the multiplus seems to sometimes enter charge mode, but often then disconnects almost immediately. Also the voltage does seem to jump around a little bit, sometimes down to 240v.

 

Am i required to open up the alternator to access it? That may prove tricky with space limitations.

 

Definitely something wrong or needs adjusting since voltage is high but frequency is low. Engine rpm sets frequency, this should be 3000rpm for 50Hz (2-pole alternator) so 45Hz suggests it's running 10% slow at 2700rpm. But voltage is 10% high at the same time, which maybe suggests an AVR problem since if anything the voltage should be low at low rpm. Voltage jumping around between 260V and 240V also suggests an AVR problem.

Edited December 5, 2022 by IanD

[Tasemu]

38 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Definitely something wrong or needs adjusting since voltage is high but frequency is low. Engine rpm sets frequency, this should be 3000rpm for 50Hz (2-pole alternator) so 45Hz suggests it's running 10% slow at 2700rpm. But voltage is 10% high at the same time, which maybe suggests an AVR problem since if anything the voltage should be low at low rpm. Voltage jumping around between 260V and 240V also suggests an AVR problem.

 

I thought the same. For now i've disconnected the new multiplus and gone back to my old setup. As far as I know they don't make my genset anymore so I have no idea how i'd be able to get a new AVR, and definitely no idea how to install it.