Hybrid drive conversion question

[Bargebuilder]

10 minutes ago, IanD said:

Just like EVs, at some point in the future where it becomes cheaper to install and run electric than diesel more and more will switch over, not just new build but refurbishments. It'll take a long time for the fleet to switch over, because boats have a long lifetime.

I take your point, but the difference is, that cars for most people are seen as essential and so people will struggle to afford EVs if that's the only option. With NBs, it's a luxury and will only remain popular if the hobby can be afforded from disposable income or savings. 

 

Many diesel engines can be nursed to go on almost forever so long as spares are available, so converting to electric is for many just an alternative option to keeping an existing engine running, and an expensive one at that.

 

For the cost of charging infrastructure to be divided between the users, you would want the number of licence payers to increase, not decrease as would happen if the hobby became much more expensive.

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

I take your point, but the difference is, that cars for most people are seen as essential and so people will struggle to afford EVs if that's the only option. With NBs, it's a luxury and will only remain popular if the hobby can be afforded from disposable income or savings. 

 

Many diesel engines can be nursed to go on almost forever so long as spares are available, so converting to electric is for many just an alternative option to keeping an existing engine running, and an expensive one at that.

 

For the cost of charging infrastructure to be divided between the users, you would want the number of licence payers to increase, not decrease as would happen if the hobby became much more expensive.

 

Which is what I said; just like EVs electric boats can't get widely adopted until they cost the same or less than diesels, including if you need to replace a worn-out engine. If the engine isn't worn out, it's always cheaper to keep it until running costs become excessive -- which could well happen if diesel prices keep going up and up due to falling market share and increased taxation to reflect real emissions costs. It's up to each boater to decide when and whether switching over makes sense for them. That's why it would take so long to switch the fleet over to electric even if charging was available.

 

The hobby might have to become more expensive anyway, both to raise more money for CART to pay for maintenance (the license fee is pretty small compared to other fees in life to get a place to live), and if costs for diesel and gas continue to rise. Not saying this is a good thing, it might well drive some people off the canals -- but to where, where else is as cheap as living on an old wreck of a boat and not paying for a mooring?

Edited July 14, 2022 by IanD

[Bargebuilder]

20 minutes ago, IanD said:

(the license fee is pretty small compared to other fees in life to get a place to live), and if costs for diesel and gas continue to rise. Not saying this is a good thing, it might well drive some people off the canals

I'm not sure that the price of diesel alone would encourage many to invest large sums in electric propulsion, even if it were £10 a litre. Even at this level, fuel costs for many people would still be a very small proportion of the total cost of ownership of a NB.

 

Even with diesel costing £10 a litre, versus a full solar electric installation providing free cruising, for people cruising for a few weeks in the summer, the pay back time would be a long one for the electric setup, lengthened further by the opportunity cost of the money invested.

 

I accept that many convert for other reasons such as for silent cruising.

 

If diesel were unavailable, that would be an incentive to convert, but then all those silent generators would go truly silent and electric boats would be traveling very short distances during cloudy times.

[IanD]

13 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

I'm not sure that the price of diesel alone would encourage many to invest large sums in electric propulsion, even if it were £10 a litre. Even at this level, fuel costs for many people would still be a very small proportion of the total cost of ownership of a NB.

 

Even with diesel costing £10 a litre, versus a full solar electric installation providing free cruising, for people cruising for a few weeks in the summer, the pay back time would be a long one for the electric setup, lengthened further by the opportunity cost of the money invested.

 

I accept that many convert for other reasons such as for silent cruising.

 

If diesel were unavailable, that would be an incentive to convert, but then all those silent generators would go truly silent and electric boats would be traveling very short distances during cloudy times.

Like I keep saying, it's up to each boater to decide whether it makes sense for them to go electric/hybrid or not -- I'm not pushing anyone into it, just pointing out what things are likely to change which might tip the balance. For some people, it will never make sense (unless diesels are actually banned), and that's fine. For some people like me it makes sense (not monetary though!) today, and that's also fine. For some people it doesn't make sense now but might in the future, especially with a charging network -- if a way can be found to make this happen.

 

Without a charging network diesels and hybrids still need fuel -- diesels all the time, hybrids some of the time -- and it makes sense for them to switch to HVO whether there's a charging network or not. All boats also need heating and this too has to come from somewhere, for example burning HVO in a boiler -- wood in a stove may well be banned due to particulate pollution.

Edited July 14, 2022 by IanD

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

That's a sweeping statement like saying "EVs will never take over the car market" -- never is a very long time, and like with EVs change won't happen immediately.

 

Just like EVs, at some point in the future where it becomes cheaper to install and run electric than diesel more and more will switch over, not just new build but refurbishments. It'll take a long time for the fleet to switch over, because boats have a long lifetime. It's estimated that it'll take until at least 2035 for half the cars on the roads to be EVs and EV rollout (half of new cars in 2025?) is already *way* ahead of boats, I'd guess at least 20 years from now (mid 2040s, maybe 2050) for boats to reach this point.

 

Which is a long time, but isn't "never"... 😉

 

But all this assumes a charging network gets rolled out, and right now there's no sign of that happening or any thought-out plan about how to make it happen, or when... 😞

Actually ian charging hubs are appearing monthly it seems! One opened in York recently and another shortly. Leeds was earlier this year with a big one at a park and ride, I used it a couple of times and it was free, electric buses into Leeds was a bonus. 

The real problems are sea side towns and councils refusing to take up grants to fit charging sites, small minded people in the wrong jobs it seems. Supermarkets are definitely helping out with Rapids being installed often with cheaper electric. The problem is people buying EVs without fully understanding their needs and ability to charge at home. Inland Boats are different though, if they ceased to exist would it really matter? Looking at the network currently I don't think we have to worry much about electrification, the network will have closed long before then and have nice houses on them!

Here is a picture of the latest electric boat coming to a narrow canal near you next year!

68 x 13.6 it will fit lovely 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[Alan de Enfield]

5 hours ago, IanD said:

 

Because when an emergency hits you have to stay alive to be able to do the right thing in future, even if this means going the wrong way in the short term?

 

Which doesn't mean worrying about the future and planning to do something about it is wrong, if anything it makes it even more essential to move away from fossil fuels as fast as possible...

 

Strangely, on tonights news Germany is now reactivating their mothballed  coal fired powerstations and have said the emission agreement made at various conferences is now in abeyance.

 

Germany’s two houses of parliament have passed emergency legislation to reactivate mothballed coal-fired power plants in order to support electricity generation amid fears of gas shortages as Russia curbs capacity.

The move has been described as “painful but necessary” by the government’s environmentalist economics minister, Robert Habeck. It has the backing of leading Greens in the coalition government, who argue it is needed as a short-term crisis management tool.

 

It was given final approval by the upper house of parliament on Friday, passed along with a package of measures to boost the expansion of renewable energies – in part by classifying them as a matter of public security – including by setting a minimum on the proportion of land each federal state must allow for windfarms.

 

But environmental campaigners argue the potential return to using such a highly polluting energy is a compromise too far and that Germany is in danger of missing even its most basic climate targets.

Before the Ukraine conflict, Germany planned to phase out coal by 2030 as it is far more carbon intensive than gas. But when gas supplies from Russia – on which Germany is highly dependent – started running short after Russia reduced the flow, moves were made to restart coal-fired power plants that had been mothballed.

The measures are meant to help wean Germany off Russian gas, making it less open to blackmail, and to preserve energy supplies before winter, using coal to produce electricity instead of gas, which needs to be saved for a wide range of industrial processes.

Industry bosses welcomed the move on Friday. In a statement, the Federation of German Industries (BDI) called the decision “better late than never”.

It said: “Politics and the economy must urgently use the summer months in order to save gas, to ensure the storage facilities are full ahead of the coming heating season. Otherwise we face a grave gas shortage with a sharp decline in industrial production. In this tense situation what counts is every single day and every cubic metre of gas we can save.”

Gas storage facilities were only about one-third full when war broke out. By Friday they had gradually been filled to about 63% capacity, amid saving measures and efforts to procure supplies from elsewhere. But they are still a considerable way off a 90% goal to be reached by 1 November, which experts say should just about see Germany through the winter.

 

and there is more ................

 

Germany to reactivate coal power plants as Russia curbs gas flow | Germany | The Guardian

[IanD]

19 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Actually ian charging hubs are appearing monthly it seems! One opened in York recently and another shortly. Leeds was earlier this year with a big one at a park and ride, I used it a couple of times and it was free, electric buses into Leeds was a bonus. 

The real problems are sea side towns and councils refusing to take up grants to fit charging sites, small minded people in the wrong jobs it seems. Supermarkets are definitely helping out with Rapids being installed often with cheaper electric. The problem is people buying EVs without fully understanding their needs and ability to charge at home. Inland Boats are different though, if they ceased to exist would it really matter? Looking at the network currently I don't think we have to worry much about electrification, the network will have closed long before then and have nice houses on them!

Here is a picture of the latest electric boat coming to a narrow canal near you next year!

68 x 13.6 it will fit lovely 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

 

But Peter, all that stuff about charging hubs for EVs has nothing to do with hybrid/electric boats, the economics and practicalities are totally different... 😉

 

If the canals did close I don't suppose the UK as a whole would see this as a major disaster, though a fair number of people who live/holiday on them would -- and there are far more people each year (about 350000) who hire boats on the canals than live on them. Doesn't sound likely though given the legal issues with doing this and the uproar it would cause from those interested in preserving a crucial part of the history of the UK.

 

It *ought* to make sense -- especially given their "green boating" policies -- for the government to find a way of getting a charging network built on the canals, otherwise it's difficult to see how they can meet their target of getting rid of fossil fuel burners pretty much everywhere. The total investment spread across 35000 boaters over several years wouldn't be that big, a temporary hike in the license fee could easily pay for it. A tiny levy on companies building road EV charging stations (out of their profits) could pay for it without any such increase.

 

But since this would take focus, imagination, and money, they'll probably just not bother and decree that boats can carry on as usual so long as they burn HVO... 😞

Edited July 14, 2022 by IanD

[IanD]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Strangely, on tonights news Germany is now reactivating their mothballed  coal fired powerstations and have said the emission agreement made at various conferences is now in abeyance.

 

Germany’s two houses of parliament have passed emergency legislation to reactivate mothballed coal-fired power plants in order to support electricity generation amid fears of gas shortages as Russia curbs capacity.

The move has been described as “painful but necessary” by the government’s environmentalist economics minister, Robert Habeck. It has the backing of leading Greens in the coalition government, who argue it is needed as a short-term crisis management tool.

 

It was given final approval by the upper house of parliament on Friday, passed along with a package of measures to boost the expansion of renewable energies – in part by classifying them as a matter of public security – including by setting a minimum on the proportion of land each federal state must allow for windfarms.

 

But environmental campaigners argue the potential return to using such a highly polluting energy is a compromise too far and that Germany is in danger of missing even its most basic climate targets.

Before the Ukraine conflict, Germany planned to phase out coal by 2030 as it is far more carbon intensive than gas. But when gas supplies from Russia – on which Germany is highly dependent – started running short after Russia reduced the flow, moves were made to restart coal-fired power plants that had been mothballed.

The measures are meant to help wean Germany off Russian gas, making it less open to blackmail, and to preserve energy supplies before winter, using coal to produce electricity instead of gas, which needs to be saved for a wide range of industrial processes.

Industry bosses welcomed the move on Friday. In a statement, the Federation of German Industries (BDI) called the decision “better late than never”.

It said: “Politics and the economy must urgently use the summer months in order to save gas, to ensure the storage facilities are full ahead of the coming heating season. Otherwise we face a grave gas shortage with a sharp decline in industrial production. In this tense situation what counts is every single day and every cubic metre of gas we can save.”

Gas storage facilities were only about one-third full when war broke out. By Friday they had gradually been filled to about 63% capacity, amid saving measures and efforts to procure supplies from elsewhere. But they are still a considerable way off a 90% goal to be reached by 1 November, which experts say should just about see Germany through the winter.

 

and there is more ................

 

Germany to reactivate coal power plants as Russia curbs gas flow | Germany | The Guardian

 

I'm not sure what point you're trying to get over, except casting doubt on anything "green" (or EV) like you usually seem to do?

 

What else is Germany supposed to do in such an emergency -- allow all the lights to go out?

 

The end effect of all this will be to accelerate the shift away from gas/oil/fossil fuels and towards renewables because it's made countries how vulnerable they are to supplies from places like Russia. In the short-term bringing back coal will be negative, but in the long-term the effect will be positive.

 

Probably not what you want to hear, though... 😉

 

P.S. In the meantime keep driving your cheap long-distance diesel tow-truck, nobody's forcing you to sell it and buy an expensive EV that doesn't suit you 😉

Edited July 14, 2022 by IanD

[David Mack]

9 minutes ago, IanD said:

The total investment spread across 35000 boaters over several years wouldn't be that big, a temporary hike in the license fee could easily pay for it.

Any idea how big "wouldn't be that big" might actually be? Without some sort of estimate you can't say whether a temporary hike in the licence fee could "easily" pay for it.

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Any idea how big "wouldn't be that big" might actually be? Without some sort of estimate you can't say whether a temporary hike in the licence fee could "easily" pay for it.

Last time I did a back-of-fag-packet calculation it came to about £50M, which might mean a 50% hike on the license fee for a few years, probably how long it would take to roll out.

 

Yes that's a lot, but it's often been said that the license fee is very cheap anyway for what you get for it, and that CART should raise it anyway to pay for better maintenance -- the suggestion that it might double has been seriously put forward, and that's a much bigger increase, and permanent not temporary.

 

Before anyone says "but why should I pay for it?" -- any infrastructure improvement that will eventually benefit everyone is normally paid for by everyone whether they can take immediate advantage of it or not -- or in some cases, even of they never use it. People pay for projects like this out of general taxation; people who never use trains or buses pay for public transport subsidies, people who don't drive pay for road construction projects, boaters in diesel boats would pay for a charging network.

 

But I don't think it's the best way to pay for it, a tiny levy on EV charging station companies would be much easier and less painful -- pretty much unnoticeable in fact.

 

I don't think there's any doubt that the canals would be a much pleasanter place to live and holiday and bike/walk on without the smoke and noise of diesel engines, though I'm sure some traditional boat owners would disagree with that... 😉

Edited July 14, 2022 by IanD

[Paul C]

Errrrr, isn't there already a "charging network" if one considers every marina (and online mooring) where you could connect a shoreline hookup, as a potential place to charge? For example, most hire bases and most marinas have electric bollards; some marinas have 100% coverage for each berth. 

 

I agree with the above, I think we're going to - at least for now - remain with 13A ie "standard" bollards, so the charge will need to be overnight rather than some kind of rapid charge analagous with car rapid charging (which....isn't rapid) or filling with water.

 

The big shock - felt by some much greater than others - will be that instead of freely using resources, they'll be needing to pay regularly. Just as people regularly pay for diesel. Those boaters who move infrequently will probably find they can go 1-2 weeks between charges; hirers and those who cruise extensively will probably be daily or every other day.

 

The "elephant in the room" is the phasing out of bottled gas and/or solid fuel - meaning that cooking, space and water heating will need to go over to electric too. That's going to absolutely cane those who liveaboard, especially those who do it frugally at the moment, and those who do it thru the winter. For hirers and cruisers, not so much (it will just be a bit bigger battery bank and a bit more electricity charge purchased, vs gas bottles/coal/wood/etc bought).

[IanD]

15 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Errrrr, isn't there already a "charging network" if one considers every marina (and online mooring) where you could connect a shoreline hookup, as a potential place to charge? For example, most hire bases and most marinas have electric bollards; some marinas have 100% coverage for each berth. 

 

I agree with the above, I think we're going to - at least for now - remain with 13A ie "standard" bollards, so the charge will need to be overnight rather than some kind of rapid charge analagous with car rapid charging (which....isn't rapid) or filling with water.

 

The big shock - felt by some much greater than others - will be that instead of freely using resources, they'll be needing to pay regularly. Just as people regularly pay for diesel. Those boaters who move infrequently will probably find they can go 1-2 weeks between charges; hirers and those who cruise extensively will probably be daily or every other day.

 

The "elephant in the room" is the phasing out of bottled gas and/or solid fuel - meaning that cooking, space and water heating will need to go over to electric too. That's going to absolutely cane those who liveaboard, especially those who do it frugally at the moment, and those who do it thru the winter. For hirers and cruisers, not so much (it will just be a bit bigger battery bank and a bit more electricity charge purchased, vs gas bottles/coal/wood/etc bought).

There are power points at marinas and some online moorings, but nothing like enough -- either in capacity or sheer number of points -- to cope with a wholesale switch to electric boats, also too far apart and not in the places where boats moor overnight.

 

Standard points are 16A which is fine for overnight charging. There are some 32A ones which would allow boats to charge in a few hours (e.g. a long lunchtime) instead of needing to moor overnight next to one.

 

Heating and hot water is the other big issue; solar panels can deal with this in summer (you can get about 7kWh/day out of panels that will fit on a narrowboat roof) but winter is a problem. There's no point banning diesel for propulsion (or forcing use of HVO) unless you also address the heating.

[Paul C]

7 minutes ago, IanD said:

 also too far apart and not in the places where boats moor overnight.

 

 

Boats are going to have to moor overnight in different places......after all they are boats, and can travel. But yes I take the point, that more online ones are needed. As said before, you'll see them appear first at popular visitor moorings. In fact......Llangollen has had them for a while now.....see where this is going?

 

I can't do it but it would be an interesting exercise to amass all the boats on the canal network, occupied/unoccupied, and do a calculation of their overall power requirement. eg for hire boats, it would be ~20 weeks/year occupation and xxx miles of cruising; for liveaboards, 50-52 weeks/year occupation but less cruising; and for owned boats (where the owner lives in a house, and occasionally holidays or visits the boat) much less of each but a token figure for the 'umbilical' permanently hooked up.

 

Then do another calculation for every bollard of every marina with them for every hour/day needed, multiplied by its power capacity. I bet the figures aren't too dissimilar - but of course you'd need a hell of a reshuffle of boats to make it work!

 

[IanD]

36 minutes ago, Paul C said:

 

Boats are going to have to moor overnight in different places......after all they are boats, and can travel. But yes I take the point, that more online ones are needed. As said before, you'll see them appear first at popular visitor moorings. In fact......Llangollen has had them for a while now.....see where this is going?

 

I can't do it but it would be an interesting exercise to amass all the boats on the canal network, occupied/unoccupied, and do a calculation of their overall power requirement. eg for hire boats, it would be ~20 weeks/year occupation and xxx miles of cruising; for liveaboards, 50-52 weeks/year occupation but less cruising; and for owned boats (where the owner lives in a house, and occasionally holidays or visits the boat) much less of each but a token figure for the 'umbilical' permanently hooked up.

 

Then do another calculation for every bollard of every marina with them for every hour/day needed, multiplied by its power capacity. I bet the figures aren't too dissimilar - but of course you'd need a hell of a reshuffle of boats to make it work!

 

That's all a bit idealistic since capacity where it's not needed is useless -- the problem is to get it to where it *is* needed.

 

The overall amount of power needed for boats is pretty small -- at least 1000x smaller than EVs, and more than that will be needed for CH heat pumps...

[Paul C]

I know, but its an idealistic vision of a very different canal system, vs a miraculous investment by some stakeholder with a magic money tree, vs the extinction of the canal network as we know it.

[Bargebuilder]

9 minutes ago, IanD said:

That's all a bit idealistic since capacity where it's not needed is useless -- the problem is to get it to where it *is* needed.

One of the great joys of boating, is to moor overnight in places which will never be equipped with charging points.

 

Places where charging points will be concentrated are likely to be the very places which I and many others avoid at all costs.

[Paul C]

11 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

One of the great joys of boating, is to moor overnight in places which will never be equipped with charging points.

 

Places where charging points will be concentrated are likely to be the very places which I and many others avoid at all costs.

What's your plan, once the diesel is gone?

[David Mack]

31 minutes ago, Bargebuilder said:

One of the great joys of boating, is to moor overnight in places which will never be equipped with charging points.

 

Places where charging points will be concentrated are likely to be the very places which I and many others avoid at all costs.

Which is fine if your electric boat has enough battery capacity for two days boating, then you can spend every other night at a non-chargepoint location.

[Bargebuilder]

1 hour ago, Paul C said:

What's your plan, once the diesel is gone?

I shall look down from above and be eternally grateful that I lived in the age of cheap foreign holidays, cheap and plentiful fuel for motoring and boating and inexpensive energy for heating.

[Bargebuilder]

48 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Which is fine if your electric boat has enough battery capacity for two days boating, then you can spend every other night at a non-chargepoint location.

When that happens I'll go back to coastal sailing which is much 'greener' than even the greenest NB, unless it has no IC engine at all. 

[peterboat]

I don't know how I have managed for the last 3 or four years cruising? Clearly my electric boat doesn't work and it's all been a dream?

Luckily the sun shines my batteries charge up and boating goes on. In a emergency I can always fire up the genny on HVO just a fraction of what I used to use with my old or modern diesel 

[IanD]

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

I don't know how I have managed for the last 3 or four years cruising? Clearly my electric boat doesn't work and it's all been a dream?

Luckily the sun shines my batteries charge up and boating goes on. In a emergency I can always fire up the genny on HVO just a fraction of what I used to use with my old or modern diesel 

Because your boat has 2.5x more solar than will fit on a narrowboat,  and you don't cruise very much?

 

As so often, your situation doesn't apply to most other people on narrowboats, but you seem to keep forgetting this...

[Bargebuilder]

2 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I don't know how I have managed for the last 3 or four years cruising? Clearly my electric boat doesn't work and it's all been a dream?

Luckily the sun shines my batteries charge up and boating goes on. In a emergency I can always fire up the genny on HVO just a fraction of what I used to use with my old or modern diesel 

What you have works for your pattern of use, but not everyone uses their NB in the way you do.

 

I do no cruising for 10 months, then live aboard for two months, cruising long days almost every day and covering long distances.

 

On a short NB, PV on the roof would nowhere near supply sufficient to satisfy an electric motor, as I like to cruise at 4mph where it is possible, which in rural places is most of the time.

 

For people like me who like long days and to travel relatively long distances  during their holiday, we would be running a generator most of the time.

 

To exchange a reliable, respectably quiet diesel engine for an expensive electric set-up that suits cruising slower than suits me and for fewer hours each day would make no sense at all.

[IanD]

10 hours ago, Bargebuilder said:

What you have works for your pattern of use, but not everyone uses their NB in the way you do.

 

I do no cruising for 10 months, then live aboard for two months, cruising long days almost every day and covering long distances.

 

On a short NB, PV on the roof would nowhere near supply sufficient to satisfy an electric motor, as I like to cruise at 4mph where it is possible, which in rural places is most of the time.

 

For people like me who like long days and to travel relatively long distances  during their holiday, we would be running a generator most of the time.

 

To exchange a reliable, respectably quiet diesel engine for an expensive electric set-up that suits cruising slower than suits me and for fewer hours each day would make no sense at all.

 

Power consumption while cruising (decent normal speed, no breaking wash) is typically about 3kW, dropping to about 1kW when passing moored boats and 0kW when stationary (e.g. in locks). I worked out that total energy usage in a typical full day (8h) of cruising comes out around 14kWh -- can be more or less depending on day length/moored boats/locks. That's based on what I also do on holiday, long days and long distances every day.

 

On a typical-length narrowboat with solar covering 8m of roof you can fit about 2kWp of panels, which in summer yield about 7kWh/day on average (but only about 1.5kWh in midwinter) -- if the roof space is less, you can obviously fit fewer panels.

 

That means you need the generator (much quieter than a diesel engine) to put back 7kWh/day, which is about an hour of running. The other 7 hours you have no noise. Or you could run for 2 hours every other day, or 4 hours or so twice a week. More runtime is needed in winter, or with fewer panels, or with very long days with no locks or moored boats (where?), but still only a fraction of the time (rather less than half) -- most of the time it's not running.

 

But as you say, swapping out a perfectly good diesel for this is extremely expensive and makes little sense. In a new build (like mine) it makes more sense but is still expensive. So it won't suit many people, and certainly not if they already have a good working diesel.

 

Peter's case is not relevant for narrowboats because he can fit 5kWp of panels on the roof of his wideboat giving about 18kWh/day in summer, which completely changes the power audit numbers -- and also we know he doesn't cruise for long days every day. For his case solar will give all the power he needs except in the depths of winter, but not for a narrowboat... 😞

Edited July 15, 2022 by IanD

[peterboat]

10 hours ago, IanD said:

Because your boat has 2.5x more solar than will fit on a narrowboat,  and you don't cruise very much?

 

As so often, your situation doesn't apply to most other people on narrowboats, but you seem to keep forgetting this...

Again wrong Ian these last few weeks I have cruised daily often more than others! You keep on forgetting all your experiences are as a hire boater very. Much a minority in the boat owning world. Yes they might do high canal miles for 2 weeks but that's often it for the year. When you own and use a boat your conceptions might change but I doubt it as others have said!

Also on another post you brought up how you thought charging infrastructure wasn't expanding, when I as an Ev owner and user know different and told you so. 

You are so far anti government its unreal you also with your continued we need to pay more for boating show your lack of knowledge and empathy for other boaters that aren't as well off as yourself. 

At times you need to look at some rough looking boats and wonder where the owners would live if cost went up by your figures?