Using the ladder in a lock

[Supermalc]

Malc.

 

Is it just possible you could be doing something wrong.

 

Me do something wrong !!! Impossible

 

Of course I know ladders were only installed a relatively few years ago. But it's called progress, and if they had been installed from the beginning, many many people would not have fallen in and drowned by climbing slippery gates.....

 

It really is simple.

[fender]

Me do something wrong !!! Impossible

 

Of course I know ladders were only installed a relatively few years ago. But it's called progress, and if they had been installed from the beginning, many many people would not have fallen in and drowned by climbing slippery gates.....

 

It really is simple.

 

Dear malc, ladders were 'progress' before the 20th century! Its probably just on the main narrow canals and broad canals that ladders were recently introduced, with the odd exception

[blackrose]

Everyone has a slightly different technique for locking. Mine is to use the ladder to & from the roof, very carefully. In fact everything I do in or around the lock, I do very carefully.

 

I will continue to do it in the same way. I reckon I'm safer to stick with it than to try and change the way I do things and get confused (as you do as you get older!)

 

Allan

 

Yes, there's no real reason to change what you do, just do it carefully. Once could easily slip off the boat into a lock or even slip off the top of the lock or trip over a bollard while rushing around. After hearing my friend's story my original post was just to highlight the dangers for anyone that wasn't aware or who'd become complacent. Deep water, high drops, tons of water being moved around, heavy gates & slippery surfaces all make for an inherently dangerous place to be.

 

I'll continue using the staircarse where I can and the ladder when I can't.

Edited November 11, 2007 by blackrose

[Supermalc]

Course you can always weld/fasten one of these to your roof, and the question becomes academic.

 

[fender]

Dear malc, ladders were 'progress' before the 20th century! Its probably just on the main narrow canals and broad canals that ladders were recently introduced, with the odd exception

 

I've been dredging up some examples of locks with ladders in the London area that are not recent

 

On the Lee and Stort navigations ladders were a common feature at some locks in the 19th century, four from the 1855 rebuild at Pickets lock remain alongside the ones that were put in last winter.

 

Carpenters Road lock (built 1933) came complete with ladders.

 

Stanstead has a ladder on the offside chamber which is a good example of early BWB ladders whilst Old Ford lock has another example

Edited November 11, 2007 by fender

[Nic]

Although not vastly experienced with boats, he's a big strong bloke and was carrying a rope up the ladder when his feet slipped off and he couldn't hold on. Part of his mistake was to step onto the ladder from gunwhale height rather than from the coachroof where the ladder is less slippery. Since he'd already let his partner off the boat before entering the lock I told him that he should have thrown the rope to her before using the ladder to leave both hands free. It sounded sensible to me until he told me that had he not been holding onto the rope when he fell in, he wouldn't have got out.

 

Oh he would, it would just be difficult. Having fallen in a canal in December a couple of years ago (slipped off an ice gunwhale!!) wearing a big thick woollen jumper I found myself on my back at the bottom of the canal looking up at the surface. There was a few seconds of panic as I couldn't get up - this was the time it took my jumper to absorb water, I think, since after a while I equalised and the body's natural buoyancy allowed me to struggle up above the surface. Mind you I suppose if you are in a lock then its a matter of getting out of the water!! I guess you'd have to haul yourself up the ladders as the boat side would be too high!

[magpie patrick]

I often disagree with John Orentas although I respect him greatly: on the subject of sodden clothes, the first thing any lifesaving course teaches you is to get your clothes off if you end up in the water, and people do practise this in swimming pools (in special life saving sessions, obviously!). Are lock ladders for the safety of people who fall in? Yes and no: If they are not, then why does Hawkesbury stop lock have one? If they are, why do most stop just below the low water level, someone in the water needs rungs to the bottom of the chamber. Initially they were for safety (when BW realise dthe implications of insisting lock gates be closed at both ends) but now BW fit them for boat crews, that's why broad locks have one on each side.

 

The great John Gagg used to have his own ladder (for narrow locks only) which he rested against the handrail of the boat and the opposite lock wall, worked fine until someone lifted the paddles when he was halfway up...

[Hairy-Neil]

when BW realised the implications of insisting lock gates be closed at both ends

 

I believe it took a coroner's court to point it out to them......

[Radiomariner]

I often disagree with John Orentas although I respect him greatly: on the subject of sodden clothes, the first thing any lifesaving course teaches you is to get your clothes off if you end up in the water, and people do practise this in swimming pools (in special life saving sessions, obviously!).

 

No No. Why should anything be heavier in water than out of it? Like you, a long time ago at school I did lifesaving. Yes, one of the things we had to do was to learn to take off clothing in the water. But this was to reduce drag and make movement easier. One of the other things we had to do was swim a mile fully clothed. For the first few minutes it was a synch, air trapped in the clothing made one very bouyant indeed, as the trapped air escaped buoyancy returned to normal (How much have you got in your lungs!) the clothing then became a drag, literally, but did not affect buoyancyother than the normal weight of the clothing.

Shoes would make some difference, being relativly heavy would affect buoyancy and being at the body extremity would adversly affect the angle at which the body would float making swimming more difficult.

More recently, to get a Certificate of Proficiency in Survival Craft and Rescue Boats (Every ships officer needs one of these nowadays) it was drummed into us that you should keep on as much cloths as possible to keep warm. Perhaps not so critical in the cut where rescue is only likely to take a few minutes and the water even in winter is relatively warm, but the point is "it is not necessary to remove clothing to float" (There are exceptions of course for instance if you are wearing a suit of armour!)

Wet clothing, and waterfilled wellies only become a significant problem when trying to lift a body out of the water.

Edited November 12, 2007 by Radiomariner

[Keithtug]

As Radiomariner says, the body is naturally buoyant. I use a weight belt with a couple of pounds of lead weights when snorkelling to stop floating back up to the surface!

Cheers

Keithtug

[Radiomariner]

I must add that buoyancy aids (Life vests etc.) main function is to ensure that the body floats the right way up, keeping nose and mouth clear even if the victim is unconcious. Be careful, some do the exact opposite. (Their main attraction being that they do not restrict body movement so much and are more comfortable when out of the water.)

Edited November 12, 2007 by Radiomariner

[saltysplash]

On the canals normally you fall in then make your way...wading ..to the bank. Most folks for some reason try and head back to the boat! Locks however are a different matter. If life jackets are to become the norm then make sure they also have crotch straps to prevent riding up. Most drownings at sea occur due to the casualty sliping out of the life jacket after it has ridden up. In locks i very much doubt your going to be in the water that long.

 

The ability to get yourself out of the water during the winter and certainly in cold water is appx 3 mins. After that the cold starts to take effect and you either float or go under.

 

Lots of people mention that your more in danger of knocking yourself out when falling in a lock...well.....to be honest your more in danger of being hit by a bus.

 

Boating is no more dangerous than any other pastime. Its basic instinct....know the dangers....take care....try and prepare for the unexpected and then enjoy yourself

[wonderdust]

More recently, to get a Certificate of Proficiency in Survival Craft and Rescue Boats (Every ships officer needs one of these nowadays) it was drummed into us that you should keep on as much cloths as possible to keep warm. Perhaps not so critical in the cut where rescue is only likely to take a few minutes and the water even in winter is relatively warm, but the point is "it is not necessary to remove clothing to float" (There are exceptions of course for instance if you are wearing a suit of armour!)

Wet clothing, and waterfilled wellies only become a significant problem when trying to lift a body out of the water.

 

Are you saying that cold wet clothes keep you warm? From what i have seen, only in documentaries, they say remove them to stave of hypothermia.

[WJM]

You always need a plan in the event of falling in. In the summer that can be to kick off your flip-flops and doggy paddle to the bank or the ladder. In the winter that plan needs to be different. Mine usually includes an inflatable lifejacket.

 

A fleece weighs nothing when it is under the surface. It is only when you move it above the surface that it has weight. As you try to swim, two shoulders and an arm above the surface could weigh the required 5kg that will push a human body under so the 20kg lift provided by a lifejacket is very significant. Though the waterlogged fleece weighs nothing it buffers all your movements making your journey from four feet below up to the surface very very slow. A bag of CO2 gas strapped to your chest makes that journey very quick!

[magpie patrick]

Just thinking of the clothes I'm dressed in today (in the office, but casual) and yesterday (out with Val driving around Romney Marsh) erm, all except the fleecy pullover top would sink when waterlogged, and even the fleecy top might. Might only be a few grammes heavier than water, but I suspect enough to drag a barely bouyant being (and we are only just bouyant) down.

 

I might be off to the chandler for a few BW style lifejackets...

[blackrose]

There seem to be some differences of opinion on whether one would sink or float when submerged & fully clothed. I think that there are a few variables: not all bodies have the same bouyancy, from my scuba diving days I know that the amount of air in one's lungs affects bouyancy, and the amount of waterlogged clothing may make a difference.

 

Rather than dismiss his account by saying "Oh you would have floated" I've got to take what my friend told me seriously and at face value.

[Supermalc]

On the subject of wellingtons etc. being the same weight under water.........well I agree. BUT it is much much harder to walk, and lifting them takes effort.

 

In the floods I put lightweight waders and wellies on to walk back from my boat. I was VERY VERY careful not to fall, or step into the river. It was patently obvious to me that I would drown, swimmer or non-swimmer that I am.

 

Sorry, this is not bullshit, or theory, or opinion, but PLAIN UNDISPUTABLE FACT.

 

The bottom line is......don't fall in.

 

[John Orentas]

Yes it is recommended that you kick off your wellies and remove heavy clothing because they will impede your movement, not because they will 'drag you down' in some way.

[Sir Nibble]

There seem to be some differences of opinion on whether one would sink or float when submerged & fully clothed. I think that there are a few variables: not all bodies have the same bouyancy, from my scuba diving days I know that the amount of air in one's lungs affects bouyancy, and the amount of waterlogged clothing may make a difference.

 

Rather than dismiss his account by saying "Oh you would have floated" I've got to take what my friend told me seriously and at face value.

I am aware that human bouyancy is borderline, and some people don't float! Like me for instance. I have lost count of the number of times I have had to fill my lungs and lie on the bottom of a swimming pool to prove the point to people who have denied that my experience is even possible.

[anhar]

Malc.

 

The canals with their locks have been with us for 200 years, the ladders were installed 20 years ago.. How do you suppose people managed for those odd 180 years.

 

Is it just possible you could be doing something wrong.

This argument has been put forward on this forum many times John, perhaps by yourself. It never made sense to me and still doesn't. How people managed in the past is of very little relevance to what we do today. They managed without a host of things that we now take for granted. Life moves on, surely you can see that.

 

Thus failing to use a ladder which exists now, just because people didn't have them in the past, is a really ineffective argument against using them. Why on earth should we refrain from using something which is put there for our convenience purely on the grounds that they were not available to previous boaters? I can't understand your point at all.

 

I can see the reasoning that they should not be used because they may be dangerous, that has the merit of some logic though I don't agree with it, but there is absolutely no logic in your argument that people managed before without ladders and that therefore we should too.

 

regards

Steve

[WJM]

It is time for John to remove his engine and buy a horse!

[John Orentas]

This argument has been put forward on this forum many times John, perhaps by yourself. It never made sense to me and still doesn't. How people managed in the past is of very little relevance to what we do today. They managed without a host of things that we now take for granted. Life moves on, surely you can see that.

 

Thus failing to use a ladder which exists now, just because people didn't have them in the past, is a really ineffective argument against using them. Why on earth should we refrain from using something which is put there for our convenience purely on the grounds that they were not available to previous boaters? I can't understand your point at all.

 

I can see the reasoning that they should not be used because they may be dangerous, that has the merit of some logic though I don't agree with it, but there is absolutely no logic in your argument that people managed before without ladders and that therefore we should too.

 

regards

Steve

 

 

Yes probably me.. The point of all this and everyone seems to go out of their way to miss it is not that people of an earlier age had a better method of routinely clambering up and down lock walls, they just did not do it, mainly I suspect because it was then and is now totally unnecessary.

 

There are many members of this forum who will burst into tears at the very thought of putting a gas bottle on their boat yet they presumably happily engage in an activity that would be totally illegal on safety grounds in an industrial environment.

 

In my time I have been employed in occupations where it was part of the job to work with very long ladders, including fixed ones which give access to such things as quarry and concrete plant equipment. An unprotected vertical ladder is very much illegal for a height of more than 12 feet, anything higher must have safety hoops and even then are seen as very much a last resort and harnesses are often insisted on.

 

I will say it again, anyone who chooses to routinely use vertical ladders is a fool.

 

Yes I know, several people will come up with brilliant retorts like "I bet you cant do lock 41 on the Aberdeen canal without using the ladder" that's why I use the word 'routinely'.

 

It is not me who is living in the past, it is those of you that have never learnt to use a lock: and what is all that about a horse, they are even worse than we are at climbing vertical ladders than we are.

Edited November 12, 2007 by John Orentas

[WJM]

I meant a Pack Horse - like what we had before canals!

[Sir Nibble]

I dunno about this only fitted 20 years ago. All the locks I see have the ladders recessed into the side of the lock chamber in what appears to be original brickwork. Single handed, with a choice between bow hauling or using the ladder, the ladder it is.

On the subject of falling off, what frightens me more is the thought of falling backwards onto the boat roof, that way it would not be difficult to end up in the water too injured to help yourself ladder or no ladder.

[John Orentas]

I dunno about this only fitted 20 years ago. All the locks I see have the ladders recessed into the side of the lock chamber in what appears to be original brickwork. Single handed, with a choice between bow hauling or using the ladder, the ladder it is.

On the subject of falling off, what frightens me more is the thought of falling backwards onto the boat roof, that way it would not be difficult to end up in the water too injured to help yourself ladder or no ladder.

 

 

Yes: the perfect scenario Snibble you fall backwards onto you roof, slide unconscious into the water and you drown..

 

You're wrong about the ladder recesses, I remember them being done invariably by contractors, someone developed a very clever machine which clamped itself to the lock, a massive rotating diamond cutter started at the top and cut it's way down the full height of the chamber, a bit like a huge hole-saw.

 

There were concerns that lock walls would be severely weakened by the process but it hasn't happened.