Reverse gear not working

[peterboat]

21 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

Well, its confession time... Since you folks have been so helpful in suggesting possible causes (and fixes), the least I can do is let you know how its going. 

 

Two RCR chaps attended the scene of the crime early this afternoon.

One was clearly the leader and spokesman of the team, and the other was extremely reticent, young and spotty, and did not make any discernible contribution to the proceedings- but in fairness the latter allegation could probably also be levelled at me- and I guess that is the way of things with youngsters learning their trade.

 

I was ready for the engine cover to be whipped off double quick, and a forensic dissection of the stricken gearbox to commence. 

Instead, the first thing he did was to ask he could try driving the boat himself, to get an idea how much the reverse power was down. 

 

So we cast off the vessel and went back a forth a few times, and to my surprise it did seem to respond better in reverse than when I had last tried it (which was before my second clearing of the prop). 

The RCR chap commented that to him it seemed more or less ok in reverse. He said he had seen some vessels that picked up speed faster when in reverse, but that my boat did get up to a decent speed after a short while. His conclusion was that the boat was navigable with the reverse power available, and he suggested that before he delved into the gearbox any further, I should give it a proper try with some reverse manoeuvres, and see what I thought. 

 

There is a winding hole a few hundred yards further on where I can try out some winding moves and see how well the reverse is responding,  but the problem is that I cant do it yet.

I need to make a train journey the day after tomorrow and will be away for a couple of days, and I also need to hang on to my current spot as there are no free moorings visible for some way to the west, and not very much behind me to the east, If I move, I may lose this spot and have to get to the train station from another 3 miles west.

 

My sense is that movement in reverse is still not as lively as it has been in the past, but I am starting to doubt my own judgement to a degree, and I think the only way I'll be sure is by winding the boat and seeing how well it comes back when in reverse. 

 

To complicate matters, this afternoon a whole tribe of travelling youtubers descended upon the moorings, and although I must say they are very nice people, I do fear that if I leave the mooring for too long, my spot might be taken by one of the group.

 

On the plus side, I think if I can ingratiate myself with the leaders of the tribe (perhaps by means of a sacrificial offering to their pagan gods), I may not be boiled alive in their cooking pots, despite me being clearly very tasty.

Plus, my boat will be totally safe whilst I'm away. Rumour has it that they will attack any intruders with spears. 

 

 

Mmmmmmmm you should have tried it after you cleared it the second time boats always make an ass of you Tony 

[Tony1]

1 minute ago, peterboat said:

Mmmmmmmm you should have tried it after you cleared it the second time boats always make an ass of you Tony 

 

I did apologise to the guys, but they were pretty happy that they got to a job and no work seemed to be needed.

I think I made their day.

 

I'm still not 100% convinced that reverse is at the normal power levels that I remember, but you start to doubt yourself when someone says it appears normal.

At least its got enough reverse power to navigate safely, and I won't be able to try it out properly for a few days yet, so I'll reserve judgement on this one.... 

 

[MtB]

24 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

The RCR chap commented that to him it seemed more or less ok in reverse. He said he had seen some vessels that picked up speed faster when in reverse, but that my boat did get up to a decent speed after a short while. His conclusion was that the boat was navigable with the reverse power available, and he suggested that before he delved into the gearbox any further, I should give it a proper try with some reverse manoeuvres, and see what I thought. 

 

This to me screams of "This boat just about goes so rather than roll my sleeves up and investigate properly I'm gonna declare the boat "still navigable" so I don't have to do any work but still get paid for the visit."

 

Cynical? Moi?

[peterboat]

18 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Mmmmmmmm you should have tried it after you cleared it the second time boats always make an ass of you Tony 

Did they not check cables or anything?

The other day 2 of their guys came to raise a cruiser at our moorings half a days work 1700 squids they worked for RCR, we raised one in 2019 bigger and on the bottom and did it in a couple of hours. The thing is sometimes to be a boater its best to be handy.

Quoted wrong post oops 

Edited November 30, 2021 by peterboat

[Tracy D'arth]

Sounds like a typical RCR turn up and leave as soon as possible after Bull Sh'ing the owner job.

Surely in view of your uncertainty they could have lifted the deck board and looked? I despair of RCR. 

[Tony1]

4 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Sounds like a typical RCR turn up and leave as soon as possible after Bull Sh'ing the owner job.

Surely in view of your uncertainty they could have lifted the deck board and looked? I despair of RCR. 

 

They're not off the hook yet- on Saturday I'll get a chance to do some proper manoeuvres, and then I'll know for sure if I'm down on reverse power, or I'm just imagining things because of a bad prop fouling incident. 

I think I am still down on reverse power to a degree, but I don't mind doing a few more tests to satisfy myself 100% that my feelings are correct. 

 

For one thing, I'm sure I remember seeing some turbulence around the rudder when I've been hard in reverse, and I'm not seeing that now. 

 

 

[nicknorman]

18 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

They're not off the hook yet- on Saturday I'll get a chance to do some proper manoeuvres, and then I'll know for sure if I'm down on reverse power, or I'm just imagining things because of a bad prop fouling incident. 

I think I am still down on reverse power to a degree, but I don't mind doing a few more tests to satisfy myself 100% that my feelings are correct. 

 

For one thing, I'm sure I remember seeing some turbulence around the rudder when I've been hard in reverse, and I'm not seeing that now. 

 

I thought you said the prop shaft wasn’t turning in reverse? If so the problem isn’t going to be leaves and weed. I’d be concerned that the reverse clutch was on the cusp of slipping and it getting a bit hot due to slipping under load (from the leaves). Whether on the cusp of slipping due to wear, or lever adjustment, is uncertain.

[Tony1]

Just now, nicknorman said:

I thought you said the prop shaft wasn’t turning in reverse? If so the problem isn’t going to be leaves and weed. I’d be concerned that the reverse clutch was on the cusp of slipping and it getting a bit hot due to slipping under load (from the leaves). Whether on the cusp of slipping due to wear, or lever adjustment, is uncertain.

 

No- I said (or at least I think I said) that the prop shaft is turning in both directions- it was the speed of turning (in relations to throttle changes) that I wasnt able to accurately judge.

 

 Its quite possible my judgement of things has been affected by my not actually steering the boat for 95% of the time during these issues, as I wanted to allow my ex-colleague a chance to navigate. But I'm still not 100% convinced that I have full power in reverse. 

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

2 hours ago, Tony1 said:

 

No- I said (or at least I think I said) that the prop shaft is turning in both directions- it was the speed of turning (in relations to throttle changes) that I wasnt able to accurately judge.

 

 Its quite possible my judgement of things has been affected by my not actually steering the boat for 95% of the time during these issues, as I wanted to allow my ex-colleague a chance to navigate. But I'm still not 100% convinced that I have full power in reverse. 

 

 

 

If comparing reverse with ahead than you never do get the same "power" in reverse. The prop is less efficient and the reduction ratio is marginally different.

[nicknorman]

3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

If comparing reverse with ahead than you never do get the same "power" in reverse. The prop is less efficient and the reduction ratio is marginally different.

Funnily enough our boat is much better at stopping from moving forwards (using reverse, obvs.) than it is from stopping from moving aft (using fwds, obvs.). When I reverse at idle up the pontoons at Fazeley Mill Marina (deep water) it does about 2mph - much the same as it does in fwds. Sometimes I think it is faster going backwards than it is going forwards!

[Tony1]

14 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

If comparing reverse with ahead than you never do get the same "power" in reverse. The prop is less efficient and the reduction ratio is marginally different.

 

Thanks Tony- and yes I can say that I had picked up on the fact that the boat doesnt have the same speed when in reverse. 

 

I dont use reverse all that often- it's just the odd short burst.

If possible, I tend to slow down by simply reducing power well in advance and letting the boat slow down more gradually, with maybe the odd burst of reverse in the last 30 yards to scrub off a bit of speed (so that its easier when I jump off and haul it to a standstill).. 

 

But I just dont feel as if I have the sort off power in reverse that I had a short while back. It may be that its been a gradual deterioration and thus less noticeable, and so it only finally came onto my radar when the prop was fouled and I lost power in both directions, and I then didnt regain the power I expected to have in reverse after I'd cleared the prop. 

 

It may be my memory is not accurate, and that its always been this powerful in reverse, but I have a nagging doubt. 

In the past, the times when I've been most conscious of the available power in reverse was when I've been winding, because I'm trying to bring the boat backwards a bit as it is turning around, and so I think that's when I'll be sure one way or the other if reverse is working as it should be. 

 

So if I'm turning and the bow is creeping towards the bank in front, and if I then use reverse and the boat doesn't come backwards as I'm used to it doing, that I think will be my decider as to whether I have a reversing problem. 

Unfortunately it'll be a few days before I have a chance to wind the boat, but I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[booke23]

@Tony1 It's possible your instincts are correct. In time you'll find out one way or the other. As @Tony Brooks mentioned, do bear in mind that the PRM 120 (assuming you don't have a 2.5:1 or 3:1 model) has a 2:1 reduction ratio in ahead and a 2.5:1 reduction ratio astern gear so the prop shaft does turn noticeably slower in reverse when you watch it. Also because the reverse ratio is lower I'd expect the ahead clutch to be the first to give trouble as a result of ham fistedness, but anything's possible I suppose!

 

I can't believe RCR didn't even lift the boards to confirm the correct movement of the cable on the gear selector. 

Edited November 30, 2021 by booke23

[Tony1]

13 minutes ago, booke23 said:

@Tony1 It's possible your instincts are correct. In time you'll find out one way or the other. As @Tony Brooks mentioned, do bear in mind that the PRM 120 (assuming you don't have a 2.5:1 or 3:1 model) has a 2:1 reduction ratio in ahead and a 2.5:1 reduction ratio astern gear so the prop shaft does turn noticeably slower in reverse when you watch it.  

 

I can't believe RCR didn't even lift the boards to confirm the correct movement of the cable on the gear selector. 

 

 

To be fair to the guy, I think that if I'd dug my heels in and insisted that it was underpowered and it needed attention, he would've taken a closer look, and he did stress that if I tried it out and still felt it was not right, they would come back asap.

But as it was responding better than it had last time I tried, and since his feeling was that it had decent-ish power in reverse, I think was a bit hesitant.

It did seem to get to a reasonable reverse speed, but I thought maybe it was taking longer to get to that speed. 

In a tight situation where I need to scrub speed off quickly, I'm not sure it'll be enough, but that's something I'll try out when I next move the boat, probably on Sunday. 

 

I have a couple of journeys to make and some local errands (e.g. waiting on a new bike tyre that might no arrive till Monday), and I cant afford to lose this spot, so I'm staying put now until all that business is sorted, and I'll get to some proper testing when I no longer need the mooring. 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Tony1

[john.k]

.In the van....Ere ,Bert,you said on the way down the geezers burnt out the clutch.....Thats for next time ,grasshopper ,first you must watch and learn the trade of fixin boats.

[cuthound]

On 28/11/2021 at 16:24, Tony1 said:

Even with my full-arm length glove on, my hand was stinging with the cold by the time I'd cleared the prop, and its gone even colder now (though not as cold as Scotland, I'll grant you!).

 

Pouring a kettle full of boiling water down the weedhatch  increases the water temperature in winter. If it takes a while to removed the prop foul, then pour kettles of water down the weedhatch at regular intervals.

[booke23]

@Tony1 Is your gearbox still operational?

[Tony1]

1 minute ago, booke23 said:

@Tony1 Is your gearbox still operational?

 

 

Yes, it seems to working fine in forward gear.

I still feel as if I've lost some oomph in reverse gear, but tbh its hard to be 100% sure.

It definitely does move in reverse, but I'm not convinced that it gets up to full reverse speed as quickly as it used to, or that it has the amount of pull in reverse that it had before the prop fouling.

But I'm not certain, and so unless/until it fails completely or causes me a problem by not stopping me quickly enough, I'm going to assume its a misperception/misremembering on my part, and I'll just keep an eye on it.

 

 

[booke23]

Just now, Tony1 said:

 

 

Yes, it seems to working fine in forward gear.

I still feel as if I've lost some oomph in reverse gear, but tbh its hard to be 100% sure.

It definitely does move in reverse, but I'm not convinced that it gets up to full reverse speed as quickly as it used to, or that it has the amount of pull in reverse that it had before the prop fouling.

But I'm not certain, and so unless/until it fails completely or causes me a problem by not stopping me quickly enough, I'm going to assume its a misperception/misremembering on my part, and I'll just keep an eye on it.

 

 

Interesting. My PRM 90 is sill behaving exactly the same, but the other way around! ie slow to engage in forward gear. It is very bad when you first set off in the morning....taking about 3-4 seconds to engage fully. After it's warmed up a bit it's much better, probably engages in about a second. Reverse is always instant engagement.

 

I was going to have a go at replacing the clutches over the winter, but I'm damned if I can find the clutches in stock anywhere! I'm just going to keep using it until it gets very bad, which is only a matter of time given the amount of slippage it does first thing in the morning. 

[Tony1]

2 minutes ago, booke23 said:

Interesting. My PRM 90 is sill behaving exactly the same, but the other way around! ie slow to engage in forward gear. It is very bad when you first set off in the morning....taking about 3-4 seconds to engage fully. After it's warmed up a bit it's much better, probably engages in about a second. Reverse is always instant engagement.

 

I was going to have a go at replacing the clutches over the winter, but I'm damned if I can find the clutches in stock anywhere! I'm just going to keep using it until it gets very bad, which is only a matter of time given the amount of slippage it does first thing in the morning. 

 

Sadly I know bugger all about gearboxes, but my suspicion is that it might not be the same issue.

I feel as if I'm getting the revs in reverse (judging from the sound it makes and that I can see some degree of turbulence in the water), but what I'm feeling is more that the prop not biting and pulling at the water the way that I feel it used to do. 

I can remember going a bit too fast into the odd lock when I first got the boat, and I recall that a burst of reverse seemed to slow me down very quickly, whereas now I feel its not stopping me in quite the same way. 

Its not related to warming up though, I can say that. If I'm right and I have lost some bite in reverse, its not something that changes as it warms up. 

 

 

[booke23]

Maybe next time you are in clear(ish) water, open the weed hatch and have a look at the prop to see if it's damaged in any way. Mine is very bad at stopping, it needs a lot of revs, but one blade of the prop is bent slightly, reducing it's pitch......it's on the to do list!