Phil Key Posted October 28, 2021 Report Share Posted October 28, 2021 Hi, im looking forward some advice please. Ive seen a Narrowboat that I would like to buy but the CIN number is in a format that does not meet the RCD specifications. I was wondering how much of a problem this would be for getting the boat insured and the impact on its resale value? Thanks in anticipation, Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted October 28, 2021 Report Share Posted October 28, 2021 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Phil Key said: Hi, im looking forward some advice please. Ive seen a Narrowboat that I would like to buy but the CIN number is in a format that does not meet the RCD specifications. I was wondering how much of a problem this would be for getting the boat insured and the impact on its resale value? Thanks in anticipation, Phil It would certainly (for me) mean further investigation. The CIN / HIN format has been laid down since 1998 and an RCD compliant boat must meet the standard format, if the boat predates 1998 then the format could be 'anyhow'. What age is the boat, who built it, was it a DIY fit-out ? Have you seen the original certificate of compliance ? Have you see tne original Bill of Sale ? Edited October 28, 2021 by Alan de Enfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bee Posted October 28, 2021 Report Share Posted October 28, 2021 That's odd, in what way is it wrong? Have to say mine is too, the letter and number punches I used on the brass plate are a couple of mm smaller than the regs but the paperwork is correct. Is there paperwork? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Key Posted October 28, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2021 1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said: It would certainly (for me) mean further investigation. The CIN / HIN format has been laid down since 1998 and an RCD compliant boat must meet the standard format, if the boat predates 1998 then the format could be 'anyhow'. What age is the boat, who built it, was it a DIY fit-out ? Have you seen the original certificate of compliance ? Have you see tne original Bill of Sale ? Hi, the boat is Colecraft built and fitted out. its 7 years old. I’ve spoken to colecraft and they claim to use their own registration system. The CIN is Col followed by the date of completion and then NBF, which they claim means Narrow Boat Fitted!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted October 28, 2021 Report Share Posted October 28, 2021 1 hour ago, Phil Key said: Hi, the boat is Colecraft built and fitted out. its 7 years old. I’ve spoken to colecraft and they claim to use their own registration system. The CIN is Col followed by the date of completion and then NBF, which they claim means Narrow Boat Fitted!? Then their format is not legally acceotable as complying with the RCD The HIN / CIN is now the WIN (Watercraft Identification Number) It is your choice whether to buy it or not, but certain marinas / brokers are tightening up on the need for correct RCD certifications and compliance. If the trend continues you may have difficulty seling in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PD1964 Posted October 28, 2021 Report Share Posted October 28, 2021 (edited) Since Colecraft have been producing boats for many years and have built hundreds, I doubt it will be a problem and as there are hundreds of their boats currently on the canals it’s obviously not a problem, as their all licensed and insured and their boats have been sold and bought many times through Brokers. Edited October 28, 2021 by PD1964 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewbacka Posted October 28, 2021 Report Share Posted October 28, 2021 Mine is a Colecraft and the HIN also does not match the iso std, but it does start as GBCOL, it’s just the rest that’s not compliant, never had any concerns raised when licensing with CRT or insuring it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Key Posted October 28, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2021 There is a full manual with the boat that carries the incorrectly formatted CIN. Phil 1 minute ago, Chewbacka said: Mine is a Colecraft and the HIN also does not match the iso std, but it does start as GBCOL, it’s just the rest that’s not compliant, never had any concerns raised when licensing with CRT or insuring it. Thanks for that! 👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackrose Posted October 28, 2021 Report Share Posted October 28, 2021 (edited) My 2005 Liverpool Boat's HIN isn't compliant either, although I bought it as a partly completed craft (sailaway) if that's relevant? Anyway the non-compliant HIN number has never bothered me since I never intended to fit it out in accordance with the RCD. Edited October 28, 2021 by blackrose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchcrawler Posted October 28, 2021 Report Share Posted October 28, 2021 Just now, blackrose said: My Liverpool Boat's HIN isn't compliant either, although I bought it as a partly completed craft (sailaway) if that's relevant? Anyway the non-compliant HIN number has never bothered me since I never intended to fit it out in accordance with the RCD. I thought the boat in question was suppose to be RCD compliant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackrose Posted October 28, 2021 Report Share Posted October 28, 2021 2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said: I thought the boat in question was suppose to be RCD compliant Is it...? Supposed to be but clearly isn't. Interesting that so called "well respected builders" don't seem to know what they're doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PD1964 Posted October 28, 2021 Report Share Posted October 28, 2021 @Alan de Enfield seams to make a big thing about RCD on the Canal, so much so to imply all Colecraft boats don’t comply and are un-able to be sold through Brokers. Well we all know this is un-true as their still building boats, their boats are still on the canals and still being sold through the main Brokers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted October 28, 2021 Report Share Posted October 28, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, PD1964 said: @Alan de Enfield seams to make a big thing about RCD on the Canal, so much so to imply all Colecraft boats don’t comply and are un-able to be sold through Brokers. Well we all know this is un-true as their still building boats, their boats are still on the canals and still being sold through the main Brokers. I have no axe to grind either way, suffice to say that the RCD (despite your wishing that it didn't) DOES apply to all recreational watercraft. be they on rivers, ponds, canals or the sea. Within the last few months there have been 3 examples of different posters on this forum being told by brokers that they are unable to sell their boats for them without the correct RCD / RCR paperwork. Each time I comment on the RCD I say that the choice is down to the boater involved, but, they should only make the decision based on knowledge of the facts and not the opinion of those who are ignorant & who say 'don't worry about it, they'll never catch you'. With regard to Colecraft and others, just because they are 'big companies' producing 100s of boats a year does not make them infallible. I'll write it in simple bullet points so you can follow the argument : 1) They claim their boats are manufactured in accordance with the RCD / RCR 2) The RCD / RCR states that the guidelines of ISO 10087 must be applied. 3) ISO 10087 details the format that the WIN must follow 4) Does the Colecraft WIN format comply with the required format ? 5) If it does not then Colecraft cannot sign the Certificate of Compliance, or, if they do it is fraudulent. Edited October 28, 2021 by Alan de Enfield 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PD1964 Posted October 28, 2021 Report Share Posted October 28, 2021 59 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said: I have no axe to grind either way, suffice to say that the RCD (despite your wishing that it didn't) DOES apply to all recreational watercraft. be they on rivers, ponds, canals or the sea. Within the last few months there have been 3 examples of different posters on this forum being told by brokers that they are unable to sell their boats for them without the correct RCD / RCR paperwork. Each time I comment on the RCD I say that the choice is down to the boater involved, but, they should only make the decision based on knowledge of the facts and not the opinion of those who are ignorant & who say 'don't worry about it, they'll never catch you'. With regard to Colecraft and others, just because they are 'big companies' producing 100s of boats a year does not make them infallible. I'll write it in simple bullet points so you can follow the argument : 1) They claim their boats are manufactured in accordance with the RCD / RCR 2) The RCD / RCR states that the guidelines of ISO 10087 must be applied. 3) ISO 10087 details the format that the WIN must follow 4) Does the Colecraft WIN format comply with the required format ? 5) If it does not then Colecraft cannot sign the Certificate of Compliance, or, if they do it is fraudulent. There are more builders then Colecraft that have their own CIN/Hin’s, stop looking like a jobsworth, I tell you what to do. GO seek legal advice and make a living prosecuting Colecraft and other boat owners for not having a legal RCD. Your a scaremonger a Jobsworth now move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 29, 2021 Report Share Posted October 29, 2021 @Alan de Enfield You have a PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted October 29, 2021 Report Share Posted October 29, 2021 9 hours ago, PD1964 said: There are more builders then Colecraft that have their own CIN/Hin’s, stop looking like a jobsworth, I tell you what to do. GO seek legal advice and make a living prosecuting Colecraft and other boat owners for not having a legal RCD. Your a scaremonger a Jobsworth now move on. You can try all you like (you have failed previously irrespective of the many names you have had on the forum and your phoenix like re-appearances) but I will not take the bait. The RCD / RCR is written down, easily found and the facts are the facts - however much you wish it was not so, and did not apply to the inland waterways, it does. Tough. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PD1964 Posted October 29, 2021 Report Share Posted October 29, 2021 28 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said: You can try all you like (you have failed previously irrespective of the many names you have had on the forum and your phoenix like re-appearances) but I will not take the bait. The RCD / RCR is written down, easily found and the facts are the facts - however much you wish it was not so, and did not apply to the inland waterways, it does. Tough. I only use one name, I was only stating that there are 100’s of Colecraft boats on the canals being bought and sold regularly so obviously no problems with the the Cin/Hin’s as you imply with Brokers and Marina’s. You seam more bothered by the RCD then most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted October 29, 2021 Report Share Posted October 29, 2021 1 minute ago, PD1964 said: I only use one name At a time (several over the years) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PD1964 Posted October 29, 2021 Report Share Posted October 29, 2021 No I haven’t, obviously getting me mixed up with someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted October 29, 2021 Report Share Posted October 29, 2021 24 minutes ago, PD1964 said: No I haven’t, obviously getting me mixed up with someone else. Someone who tells lies needs to have a very good memory, and you obviously don't. When I suggested this some time ago you posted that 'yes' you had had several 'handles' but had used PD for some time now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PD1964 Posted October 29, 2021 Report Share Posted October 29, 2021 13 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said: Someone who tells lies needs to have a very good memory, and you obviously don't. When I suggested this some time ago you posted that 'yes' you had had several 'handles' but had used PD for some time now. I used 1 other name back 2012, then changed as there was a member with a similar name, that’s not several. So 2 in over 12 years, not exactly a major crime and what’s with the ‘Handles’? I doubt I would use that speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted October 29, 2021 Report Share Posted October 29, 2021 14 hours ago, PD1964 said: @Alan de Enfield seams to make a big thing about RCD on the Canal I'm sure you remember this thread - you posted several times. This is where a forum member stated he had been involved in 4 court cases against manufacturers for non RCD / RCR compliance and they were fined 'substantial sums'. The rules are progressively being applied to Inland Waterway boat manufacturers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murflynn Posted October 29, 2021 Report Share Posted October 29, 2021 15 hours ago, blackrose said: My 2005 Liverpool Boat's HIN isn't compliant either, although I bought it as a partly completed craft (sailaway) if that's relevant? Anyway the non-compliant HIN number has never bothered me since I never intended to fit it out in accordance with the RCD. Mike, my 2005 Scouseboat sailaway (Annexe 3) did not have an HIN - the only reference would have been a works hull number. The HIN was applied for by the "builder" - the one who completes the boat - i.e. you or me. In my case, as a private person, the HIN was issued by the RYA when I completed the RCD paperwork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PD1964 Posted October 29, 2021 Report Share Posted October 29, 2021 16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said: I'm sure you remember this thread - you posted several times. This is where a forum member stated he had been involved in 4 court cases against manufacturers for non RCD / RCR compliance and they were fined 'substantial sums'. The rules are progressively being applied to Inland Waterway boat manufacturers. I posted on it once, that’s not several, as with the once I changed my forum name, again not several as you say. Keep banging the RCD/RCR drum hopefully one day you may get the mass response and support your after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted October 29, 2021 Report Share Posted October 29, 2021 Just now, PD1964 said: I posted on it once, that’s not several, as with the once I changed my forum name, again not several as you say. Keep banging the RCD/RCR drum hopefully one day you may get the mass response and support your after. I was fortunate enough to retire aged 47 some 20+ years ago and don't need 'support' from anyone. I spent many years in industry 'fighting my corner' against some very entrenched Luddites and in the majority of instances my point was eventually proved valid, I believe that the increasing implementaion of the RCD / RCR on the Inland Waterways will also eventually be seen to be fact. All I am doing is ensuring that those who are unaware of the facts are educated so they are capable of making an informed decision when faced with buying or building a boat with, or without the necessary certification. I do not say you 'must have it', simply, that if you choose not to be compliant there can be ramifications, and. very few of us can see what the future holds for us. This choice came back to bite a lady recently who had, without knowing the implications, decided to build her boat and ignored the RCD. Due to ill health she found the need to sell it just two years after completion and when the broker told her it was illegal to sell it, then had to engage a surveyor and get a PCA at the cost of some £1000's. (Thread on the forum) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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