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Beta 60 panel fuse blowing on start up


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Can't get to the boat due to covid travel restrictions, the boatyard have run the engine for me but it failed to stop, after a manual stop they tried to restart but found the 40 amp control panel fuse blown, replaced fuse and it blew again as soon as they tried to restart the engine. They want to remove the starter for inspection. Any thoughts please. Does anyone know whether  the stop solenoid on these engines is energise to run or to stop? Does anyone know the Kubota part No for the starter? Thanks

wiring.pdf

Edited by Phoenix_V
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You are dependent on the fault finding skills of the boat yard person, but here are some things I'd suggest.

Don't know about a Beta 60, but on a 43 the stop solonoid is energise to stop. It sounds like the fault developed while the engine was running. A short circuit that blew the fuse and prevented them from energising the stop solonoid and having to stop it manually. If the solonoid was energise to run, then the engine would have stopped as soon as the fuse blew and would not have needed a manual stop.

For once, the engine harness plug and socket are useful and can be used to narrow down the problem. Split the plug/socket. This will narrow down if the fault is in the engine side, or the control panel side.

Wiring diagram from Beta shows which pins in the plug/socket go to which place for engine side fault finding. With a multi meter check the resistance between the the ground pin (10) and the pin of the start solonoid (pin 2) and the glow plugs (pin 11). If they are zero, near zero, then that is where the fault is. Good glow plug resistances are low anyway. Four in parallel giving a resistance of 0.3 ohm will use 40A when energised, so a resistance between pins 10 and 11 of less than 0.3 ohm would lead to a blown 40A fuse and shows a shorted glow plug, or a wiring fault. Similarly, a less than 0.3 ohm resistance between the starter pin 2 and ground will lead to the fuse blowing.

Going through possible sources for the low resistance path that has lead to the fuse blowing should find it pretty quickly. If the fault isn't on the engine, then do a similar thing on the panel side of the plug/socket and the ground, or power pins. You'll have a panel diagram from Beta in your documentation too, or it can be downloaded from them.

This will be possibly quicker and certainly more reliable and cheaper than randomly replacing components. If the fault is in the starter, then getting them to take it to a starter motor specialist locally for repair will be a lot cheaper than a new one.

Jen

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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Thanks for those thoughts. It is always a problem doing things remotely and I am not sure of the boatyard skillset though I am sure they are better than me. I need to double check with them at which point the fuse blows; if as I understood it is only after you turn past the heat and run positions to start then surely the only extra items in circuit are the starter and it's solenoid and any other associated relay. If so it might be quicker (cheaper) for him to remove the starter for specialist report than spend time fault finding himself?? I hope there is a local repair facility but thought it best to be armed with the knowledge of how much a replacement/refurb might cost.

 

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2 minutes ago, Phoenix_V said:

Thanks for those thoughts. It is always a problem doing things remotely and I am not sure of the boatyard skillset though I am sure they are better than me. I need to double check with them at which point the fuse blows; if as I understood it is only after you turn past the heat and run positions to start then surely the only extra items in circuit are the starter and it's solenoid and any other associated relay. If so it might be quicker (cheaper) for him to remove the starter for specialist report than spend time fault finding himself?? I hope there is a local repair facility but thought it best to be armed with the knowledge of how much a replacement/refurb might cost.

 

Certainly on my Beta 43, once you have the engine started, it will carry on running without any further need for the engine wiring loom. You typically get this when the loom plug/socket comes apart from vibration and if you don't notice that the rev counter is stuck and the green light is off, then your first clue is that the stop solonoid button does nothing! At exactly what point the fuse blew is hard to say. It is not likely to be the glow plugs, as the starter wouldn't have worked if these had already blown the fuse. The starter motor solonoid is a likely candidate, but it could be lots of other things. Chaffed wires with exposed conductor shorting to another wire, or to engine metalwork for example.

Jen

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4 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

it could be lots of other things. Chaffed wires with exposed conductor shorting to another wire, or to engine metalwork for example.

Jen

fair point will ask him to at least visually check and measure the resistance at the solenoid

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57 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

This doesn't sound like a starter problem. It sounds like the boatyard are replacing fault finding with guesswork and any fool can do that.

They don't hold themselves to be electricians but are local (and I am not and cannot be) and if we are fairly sure it is the starter makes sense for them to remove it and take to expert. AFAIK the fuse feeds the panel, everything works fine on the panel until they turn the key to the start position then nothing happens except fuse blows other than a chafed wire between the starter and keyswitch what else is possible

52 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

The bent copper busbar connections for the glow-plugs on a Beta are exposed on the cylinder head, a carelessly dropped washer/nut/spanner etc. can short them to ground.

but I presume these are only energised when the keyswitch is turned to "heat" why would the fuse blow at "start"

image.png.c07ef30818d2bc068b4337075eaa1755.png

 

Edited by Phoenix_V
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The fact that it didn't stop rather suggests that it might not be the starter but the engine stop solenoid, on the Beta 43 its a cylindrical thing by the fuel pump. If that fails the thing will not stop and you have to pull the rod by hand to stop the engine. I would not suspect the starter or anything to do with it unless it refuses to disengage when the engine is stopped and just keeps turning the engine over constantly. If that was the case a manual stop would not have worked. If I was there (!) I would take all the connections off of the engine stop thingy and see what happens., a burnt out stop solenoid might just have a dead short.

Edited by Bee
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6 minutes ago, Bee said:

The fact that it didn't stop rather suggests that it might not be the starter but the engine stop solenoid, on the Beta 43 its a cylindrical thing by the fuel pump. If that fails the thing will not stop and you have to pull the rod by hand to stop the engine. I would not suspect the starter or anything to do with it unless it refuses to disengage when the engine is stopped and just keeps turning the engine over constantly. If that was the case a manual stop would not have worked. If I was there (!) I would take all the connections off of the engine stop thingy and see what happens., a burnt out stop solenoid might just have a dead short.

I did suspect that but if the solenoid is energised to stop it would only blow the fuse when the stop button is pressed wouldn't it? In the unlikely event that it is energised to run the fuse should blow on the "run" position before you get to "start"

 

9 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Surely the starter motor can be tested independantly on the engine with jump leads and or energizing it with a wire from a battery to the solenoid.

Bit wary of that if solenoid is shorted there would be rather a big spark

 

7 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

Either the component or the wiring, what else is possible? Well that about sums up all fault finding.

I would suggest disconnecting the starter solenoid and then try it.

Thanks will ask them to try first, the solenoid and starter seem to be combined in one unit, do you know if the solenoid is likely to be available separately

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6 minutes ago, Phoenix_V said:

I did suspect that but if the solenoid is energised to stop it would only blow the fuse when the stop button is pressed wouldn't it? In the unlikely event that it is energised to run the fuse should blow on the "run" position before you get to "start

Hmmm, Engine is running, Energise to stop, solenoid does something stupid and melts / sulks. Engine is stopped manually, try to restart it fuse blows as solenoid is big lump of melted stuff, can't start engine or anything much at all. Not sure if the fuse blows in 'run' or 'start'  Not sure if the fuse would blow without pressing the stop button though.  Sometimes electricity is hard to understand.

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3 minutes ago, Bee said:

 Not sure if the fuse blows in 'run' or 'start'  .  Sometimes electricity is hard to understand.

I will recheck their description but understanding was blows on "start" only.

trouble is you can't see electricity at least until it gets very bad

 

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43 minutes ago, Phoenix_V said:

They don't hold themselves to be electricians but are local (and I am not and cannot be) and if we are fairly sure it is the starter makes sense for them to remove it and take to expert. AFAIK the fuse feeds the panel, everything works fine on the panel until they turn the key to the start position then nothing happens except fuse blows other than a chafed wire between the starter and keyswitch what else is possible

but I presume these are only energised when the keyswitch is turned to "heat" why would the fuse blow at "start"

image.png.c07ef30818d2bc068b4337075eaa1755.png

 

Because most of the diesel start ignition switches put the heaters on with the start solenoid as well.

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27 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Because most of the diesel start ignition switches put the heaters on with the start solenoid as well.

OK I didn't know that (although it looks unlikely from the diagram), will ask them to try Sir Nibble's test first then move onto other things like the heaters

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17 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

Yes, solenoid should be available separately but not easily found unless you know where to look. Pm me if it turns out you need one but it really is very very unusual for this to be a problem.

I can't remember a solenoid causing fuses to blow, as you say, unusual.

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4 hours ago, Tracy D'arth said:

I can't remember a solenoid causing fuses to blow, as you say, unusual.

It's extremely unusual for a starter circuit to be fused. I've seen solenoids burned out to the point of short circuit but that's a certain indicator of the starter "running in mesh" and is a symptom not a fault.

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22 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

It's extremely unusual for a starter circuit to be fused. I've seen solenoids burned out to the point of short circuit but that's a certain indicator of the starter "running in mesh" and is a symptom not a fault.

There was some mention of the starter "hanging" but between his English and my Dutch whether it had or not was unclear so it may be the whole unit anyway?

 

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One of the boats I skipper has a Beta 60. The fuel solenoid on that is energise to run. When the main 40A fuse went faulty on that, the engine stopped. Must confess I was a bit surprised; I expected energise to stop, in common with other Betas I have known.

 

If the fuse blows when the key is turned to “start”, I’d be looking for a short from the wire between the keyswitch and the starter solenoid; most likely at the engine end.

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13 hours ago, Phoenix_V said:

There was some mention of the starter "hanging" but between his English and my Dutch whether it had or not was unclear so it may be the whole unit anyway?

 

If the starter has been running long enough to burn out the solenoid then the whole unit will be toast.

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44 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

If the starter has been running long enough to burn out the solenoid then the whole unit will be toast.

 

Thanks for your comments.

indeed it is looking like that may so  but I now have to wait until they get round to the job to find out if that is the case, if so is it likely to be repairable or need replacing? presumably there are cheaper sources than Beta? or even the local Kubota dealer?

Edited by Phoenix_V
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