phasing out of fossil fuels - programme

[ditchcrawler]

14 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Jack from experience the 2 volt cells wont work, I am assuming that you will operating at 48 volts? If so other options are better either like me with secondhand  valence batteries or 48 volt packs made up from cells with a BMS or Balance board. Also repurposed EV battery banks are around in both the long and short term this will save you money and time charging. As Ian says I have a lot of solar and have wandered around moving every couple of days late spring summer early autumn, before and after that is hard work hence the installation of the genny. I have done two electric boats and I am helping someone with a third and can safely say you will enjoy the experience of silent cruising if you want a chat PM me

Just being nosy as I don't plan to drag my diesel engine out, but what would be the difference in cost of a set of lithium's against a set of Lead carbon for this sort of job. 

[IanD]

24 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Just being nosy as I don't plan to drag my diesel engine out, but what would be the difference in cost of a set of lithium's against a set of Lead carbon for this sort of job. 

Probably about double, depending on what the lead-carbons cost...

 

But you have to look at the overall cost of the entire propulsion/electrics system including batteries, controllers, motors, installation hardware, charger/inverter, generator. When I added it up the lithiums were maybe 40% of the total cost, the generator 30%, everything else 30%, total something north of 30 grand. But if this is about 20% of the total new boat cost, the lithiums are maybe 8% of the total, which means lead-carbon might knock 4% off the total boat cost. Seems worth it to me...

 

BYD LVL 15.4 LiFePO4 have 15.4kWh usable (300Ah) and cost £5360, so £10700 for a pair to get 30kWh usable

https://www.off-grid-europe.com/byd-box-premium-lvl-15-4-lithium-battery

To get the same usable capacity you need 1000Ah of pure lead-carbon, 24 of these at £370 each is £8900

https://batterystore.co.uk/lrc2-1000-lead-carbon-battery/

 

So actually cost adder is only a couple of grand...

Edited January 11, 2021 by IanD

[peterboat]

Just now, IanD said:

You still don't get the point -- I've no doubt he can build them, but operating a 50kW-capable engine at 12kW output in a generator drops efficiency, which you claimed was his big advantage (and bears zero relation to a 100hp race engine). If he can get the numbers you claim then I take my hat off to him, but not until he shows real measurements -- until then, it's vapourware.

You are missing the point Ian he needs 10kw at 48 volts so he builds an engine to deliver say 12 ish kw this will be a brand new DI twin cylinder water cooled jobby he will add the turbo to get that power and to clean up the emissions it will be spinning at 3000rpm approx, the alternator is water cooled along with the engine. Remember he is an engineer this is his bread and butter, the boat side he looks at but leaves it to a manager for day to day stuff

[IanD]

Just now, peterboat said:

You are missing the point Ian he needs 10kw at 48 volts so he builds an engine to deliver say 12 ish kw this will be a brand new DI twin cylinder water cooled jobby he will add the turbo to get that power and to clean up the emissions it will be spinning at 3000rpm approx, the alternator is water cooled along with the engine. Remember he is an engineer this is his bread and butter, the boat side he looks at but leaves it to a manager for day to day stuff

OK, that's fine. But 0.3l/kWh is make-believe until he's got measurements to prove it, no matter how good an engineer he is ?

[ditchcrawler]

12 minutes ago, IanD said:

Probably about double, depending on what the lead-carbons cost...

 

But you have to look at the overall cost of the entire propulsion/electrics system including batteries, controllers, motors, installation hardware, charger/inverter, generator. When I added it up the lithiums were maybe 40% of the total cost, the generator 30%, everything else 30%, total something north of 30 grand. But if this is about 20% of the total new boat cost, the lithiums are maybe 8% of the total, which means lead-carbon might knock 4% off the total boat cost. Seems worth it to me...

That was in line with my thinking. Spend £150K and save a couple of grand on a decent battery system.

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

That was in line with my thinking. Spend £150K and save a couple of grand on a decent battery system.

Actual cost difference is £2k from the figures I found (see post #1077)...

Edited January 11, 2021 by IanD

[peterboat]

15 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Just being nosy as I don't plan to drag my diesel engine out, but what would be the difference in cost of a set of lithium's against a set of Lead carbon for this sort of job. 

I put together the bank for my big boat for 2.5k its 30 x 36 volt Valence LifePo4s its 36KWHs

Prior to that I had a 10 x 12 volt valence batteries which is only 16KWHs  again 2.5K

So for my electric car I built 3 x 48 volts 17.6 KWHs blocks form Lithium polymer cells including bolts, interconnects and battery balancing boards it was 2.3K these were brand new the valence set up was secondhand.

I would recommend to Jack to go down the Lithium Polymer route like I did for the car

My friend John bought a brand new BMW I3 battery pack for 8k we have to add balance boards to this its 8 x 48 volt packs I cant remember the chemistry of the batteries

[Jackofalltrades]

17 minutes ago, IanD said:

Lead carbons are better than gel/AGM, but for a narrowboat if you can't afford lithium then flooded 2V traction cells are probably the best bet -- the cycle life is similar and they're half the price, and have been well proven in hybrid boats over the last ten years or so.

 

The Leoch lead carbon are neither fish nor fowl -- considerably more expensive than 2V LA traction cells (about 2x?) and not much better (and there's not much real data about actual lifetime in a boat application), and nothing like as good as lithium. They are better for PSoC but don't believe the quoted lifetime unless you regularly equalise them (see Northstar manual).

 

As I said, how big a bank are you considering and what is the cost? Compared to the overall cost of a new boat the cost adder for lithium doesn't look so bad even with new batteries, and the huge advantage is that they can just be treated like a "power bucket" (assuming a good BMS which talks to the Quattro/MPPT).

600AH @ 48v minimum. 800AH would be better but probably not necessary from an expected 50% DoD / cycle life / cost point of view. Cost difficult to say as we haven't decided which batteries we'll go for at present. Lithiums (LiFePO4 not Li-ion) would be a budget blower (yes I am aware of ability to use a higher DoD but good practice seems to suggest 80% DoD and only charge to 95% for long(er) life).

 

The Leoch 2v lead carbons have a stated cycle life of approx 3,300 at 50% DoD. This is the spec sheet for the 800AH battery http://www.leoch.com/pdf/reserve-power/leadcarbon/LC2-800.pdf

 

[IanD]

1 minute ago, Jackofalltrades said:

600AH @ 48v minimum. 800AH would be better but probably not necessary from an expected 50% DoD / cycle life / cost point of view. Cost difficult to say as we haven't decided which batteries we'll go for at present. Lithiums (LiFePO4 not Li-ion) would be a budget blower (yes I am aware of ability to use a higher DoD but good practice seems to suggest 80% DoD and only charge to 95% for long(er) life).

 

The Leoch 2v lead carbons have a stated cycle life of approx 3,300 at 50% DoD. This is the spec sheet for the 800AH battery http://www.leoch.com/pdf/reserve-power/leadcarbon/LC2-800.pdf

 

If you're using the 600Ah Leoch at 50% DOD that's 300Ah (15kWh) usable. 24 of them at £336 each comes to £8064, rated life is 3300 cycles, 5-year warranty

https://batterystore.co.uk/lrc2-600-lead-carbon-battery/

 

BYD LVL 15.4 LiFePO4 has 15.4kWh usable (300Ah) and costs £5360, rated life is similar, using internal BMS warranty is 10 years:

https://www.off-grid-europe.com/byd-box-premium-lvl-15-4-lithium-battery

 

With the BYD the internal BMS takes over as the master charge controller and tells the Quattro and MPPT what to do, hence the guarantee (and approval by Victron) -- the Victron can read out individual cell voltages, and the battery pack can be remotely diagnosed over the internet by BYD including logging of history of battery parameters. These are intended for unattended high-reliability off-grid systems, if you really want you can parallel 64 of them up to get 1MWh... ?

[IanD]

18 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I put together the bank for my big boat for 2.5k its 30 x 36 volt Valence LifePo4s its 36KWHs

Prior to that I had a 10 x 12 volt valence batteries which is only 16KWHs  again 2.5K

So for my electric car I built 3 x 48 volts 17.6 KWHs blocks form Lithium polymer cells including bolts, interconnects and battery balancing boards it was 2.3K these were brand new the valence set up was secondhand.

I would recommend to Jack to go down the Lithium Polymer route like I did for the car

My friend John bought a brand new BMW I3 battery pack for 8k we have to add balance boards to this its 8 x 48 volt packs I cant remember the chemistry of the batteries

As has been said *many* times, a high-power home-brewed lithium battery system is not for the faint-hearted or the non-electrically-minded; if you're willing to put in the effort, buy secondhand cells, do all the work and take the risk you can save maybe half the cost. But to be safe and reliable it needs to be properly designed and built. Anyone considering this should read this first:

 

https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/

 

"WARNING / DIY BUILDS:

I do not believe LiFePO4 is ready for mass DIY prime time builds. Read with caution, and especially focus on the things that you don’t want to hear rather than only what you want to hear. Once you are done reading this, and it makes sense to you, then please spend another few months reading everything you can including every single LiFePO4 white paper you can get your hands on."

[Jackofalltrades]

2 minutes ago, IanD said:

If you're using the 600Ah Leoch at 50% DOD that's 300Ah (15kWh) usable. 24 of them at £336 each comes to £8064, rated life is 3300 cycles, 5-year warranty

https://batterystore.co.uk/lrc2-600-lead-carbon-battery/

 

BYD LVL 15.4 LiFePO4 has 15.4kWh usable (300Ah) and costs £5360, rated life is similar, using internal BMS warranty is 10 years:

https://www.off-grid-europe.com/byd-box-premium-lvl-15-4-lithium-battery

 

With the BYD the internal BMS takes over as the master charge controller and tells the Quattro and MPPT what to do, hence the guarantee (and approval by Victron) -- the Victron can read out individual cell voltages, and the battery pack can be remotely diagnosed over the internet by BYD including logging of history of battery parameters. These are intended for unattended high-reliability off-grid systems, if you really want you can parallel 64 of them up to get 1MWh... ?

 

The Leoch's you've quoted are the LRC2 not the LC2 that I would use. The LC2 600's can be found for £245 x 24 = £5880 inc VAT

The BYD is £6,377.21 inc VAT

The smallprint on the BYD LiFePO4 spec sheet stats " [1] DC Usable Energy, Test conditions: 100% DOD "

I would not be happy stressing the battery to this level. Good practice is 80% DoD and charge to 95% so 75% usable capacity of 15.4KWh = 11.55KWh or 240Ah

[Jackofalltrades]

On balance, although I am electrically-minded and can turn my hand to most things (successfully!) I am nevertheless cautious with going down the lithium route. There is far more to lithium batteries than lead batteries and although I'm all for taking calculated risks and learning new stuff my gut feeling is to stick with lead, albeit probably lead carbon, batteries. I see LC as a half-way house between flooded LA traction batteries and lithium so I can't be called a complete Luddite ...or should that be Leaddite? ?

 

 

[peterboat]

10 minutes ago, Jackofalltrades said:

 

The Leoch's you've quoted are the LRC2 not the LC2 that I would use. The LC2 600's can be found for £245 x 24 = £5880 inc VAT

The BYD is £6,377.21 inc VAT

The smallprint on the BYD LiFePO4 spec sheet stats " [1] DC Usable Energy, Test conditions: 100% DOD "

I would not be happy stressing the battery to this level. Good practice is 80% DoD and charge to 95% so 75% usable capacity of 15.4KWh = 11.55KWh or 240Ah

Honestly Jack you won't get the performance you want I have a bunch of them on the bank to get weighed in, my lithium batteries charge fast those batteries you want wont  but they will make good ballast. It's just the charging issue of  getting them to 100% it's a struggle and uses lots of energy. My insurance company know I am using a lithium battery bank and are ok with it ,the broker has a boat and reads forums 

[TheBiscuits]

18 minutes ago, Jackofalltrades said:

 

The Leoch's you've quoted are the LRC2 not the LC2 that I would use. The LC2 600's can be found for £245 x 24 = £5880 inc VAT

The BYD is £6,377.21 inc VAT

The smallprint on the BYD LiFePO4 spec sheet stats " [1] DC Usable Energy, Test conditions: 100% DOD "

I would not be happy stressing the battery to this level. Good practice is 80% DoD and charge to 95% so 75% usable capacity of 15.4KWh = 11.55KWh or 240Ah

 

I was about to post that Ian had missed the VAT off the BYD but you beat me to it.

 

I think for 10% ish difference in cost I'd be sorely tempted to go for the LiFePo though.  

[Jackofalltrades]

28 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Honestly Jack you won't get the performance you want I have a bunch of them on the bank to get weighed in, my lithium batteries charge fast those batteries you want wont  but they will make good ballast. It's just the charging issue of  getting them to 100% it's a struggle and uses lots of energy. My insurance company know I am using a lithium battery bank and are ok with it ,the broker has a boat and reads forums 

Maybe, maybe not. My only experience so far with lithium is with laptop batteries (Li-ion) and cordless tools. Oh and my shavers. And the toothbrush. And my phones. And, er, well, they're everywhere aren't they...

 

OK, let me spell it out:

- Budget is a factor (isn't it always)

- A drop-in 48v LiFePO4 pack with a minimum of 300Ah usable to 80% DoD and charge to 95% SoC would be tempting - so 400Ah or 19.2KWh minimum

- A DIY version of the above - I would want a guru on speed dial

- Budget is a factor (have I said that?) £6K I can live with. Much more than that and the leather on my wallet starts to peel (well they said it was leather)

- Safety - no compromises

 

Now don't get me wrong I am open-minded and I have maybe two months before having to clean the dust off the dust on my wallet but at this stage, on balance, I still think lead carbon is the way to go and apart from anecdotal evidence I haven't yet seen anything to get me running for the hills.

 

23 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

I was about to post that Ian had missed the VAT off the BYD but you beat me to it.

 

I think for 10% ish difference in cost I'd be sorely tempted to go for the LiFePo though.  

Yes the price difference isn't that great but the usable capacity of the lithium is only 240Ah compared to 300Ah for the lead carbon.  300Ah (usable) is the minimum I want to install.

Edited January 11, 2021 by Jackofalltrades

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, Jackofalltrades said:

Maybe, maybe not. My only experience so far with lithium is with laptop batteries (Li-ion) and cordless tools. Oh and my shavers. And the toothbrush. And my phones. And, er, well, they're everywhere aren't they...

 

OK, let me spell it out:

- Budget is a factor (isn't it always)

- A drop-in 48v LiFePO4 pack with a minimum of 300Ah usable to 80% DoD and charge to 95% SoC would be tempting - so 400Ah or 19.2KWh minimum

- A DIY version of the above - I would want a guru on speed dial

- Budget is a factor (have I said that?) £6K I can live with. Much more than that and the leather on my wallet starts to peel (well they said it was leather)

- Safety - no compromises

 

Now don't get me wrong I am open-minded and I have maybe two months before having to clean the dust off the dust on my wallet but at this stage, on balance, I still think lead carbon is the way to go and apart from anecdotal evidence I haven't yet seen anything to get me running for the hills.

 

Yes the price difference isn't that great but the usable capacity of the lithium is only 240Ah compared to 300Ah for the lead carbon.  300Ah (usable) is the minimum I want to install.

You can only use 50% of the leoch cells so are you getting more? I would not waste my time with them honestly this is  a buy once job the leochs could be knackered in 2 years given the use you plan for them. I have 3 years on my electric boat now so have been there got the T shirt. I played with another boat first and it has saved me time and money on this one 

[Jackofalltrades]

20 minutes ago, peterboat said:

You can only use 50% of the leoch cells so are you getting more? I would not waste my time with them honestly this is  a buy once job the leochs could be knackered in 2 years given the use you plan for them. I have 3 years on my electric boat now so have been there got the T shirt. I played with another boat first and it has saved me time and money on this one 

I do hear what you are saying but going down the (more expensive) lithium route seems risky from where I'm standing at the moment and the secondhand lithium battery route seems potentially fraught. Would it be possible for you to describe your setup in detail?  I appreciate you might not want to though.

[IanD]

2 hours ago, Jackofalltrades said:

 

The Leoch's you've quoted are the LRC2 not the LC2 that I would use. The LC2 600's can be found for £245 x 24 = £5880 inc VAT

The BYD is £6,377.21 inc VAT

The smallprint on the BYD LiFePO4 spec sheet stats " [1] DC Usable Energy, Test conditions: 100% DOD "

I would not be happy stressing the battery to this level. Good practice is 80% DoD and charge to 95% so 75% usable capacity of 15.4KWh = 11.55KWh or 240Ah

The point about assembled batteries like the BYD with internal BMS intended for off-grid applications is that they're specified and designed to be used continuously over the full capacity range, and the BMS enforces this and protects the cells -- they don't normally take the internal cells to either 100% or 0% charge to preserve lifetime, so what appears from the outside as "0%" and "100%" capacity is not that for the cells.

 

If this wasn't the case there's no way they'd be able to provide a 10 year guarantee when used within the specified limits. For 300Ah usable my guess is that the raw cell capacity is probably 350Ah or more, but this is hidden from the user.

 

[IanD]

3 hours ago, Jackofalltrades said:

On balance, although I am electrically-minded and can turn my hand to most things (successfully!) I am nevertheless cautious with going down the lithium route. There is far more to lithium batteries than lead batteries and although I'm all for taking calculated risks and learning new stuff my gut feeling is to stick with lead, albeit probably lead carbon, batteries. I see LC as a half-way house between flooded LA traction batteries and lithium so I can't be called a complete Luddite ...or should that be Leaddite? ?

 

 

The point about large-scale commercial batteries like the BYD is that they are literally idiot-proof, especially when used together with the Victron gear which they're certified by Victron to do (everything connects via Canbus, including remote diagnostics) -- the entire charging process (from all sources including MPPT) and all protection including disconnect/overcurrent/temperature and cell balancing is controlled by the BMS inside the batteries which is designed to work with the cells as intended by the manufacturer -- which I believe is BYD, they're also a huge BEV supplier in China. Like a Tesla, the whole system can be remotely monitored by BYD/Victron to diagnose any problems.

 

All this is needed because they're intended to be used in commercial unattended off-grid applications (up to 1MWh) where there isn't anybody to look after them or probe them if there are any problems, so they have to be accessible over the internet for remote diagnostics instead of sending somebody out to them. For example, a battery with any problems -- even a fault in one internal cell like high temperature, because every individual cell can be monitored -- can be remotely disconnected from the array.

 

They're in a completely different league to small-scale batteries built up from cells from one supplier with BMS/protection/balancing from another one (or home-built); they have to be since a single large-scale battery/solar/inverter/charger installation can cost hundreds of thousands of pounds, so it has to be reliable and properly protected (including automatic current/charge sharing between massive battery arrays).

 

It's very much like the difference between a Tesla and a home-built electric go-kart ?

Edited January 11, 2021 by IanD

[Jackofalltrades]

18 minutes ago, IanD said:

The point about assembled batteries like the BYD with internal BMS intended for off-grid applications is that they're specified and designed to be used continuously over the full capacity range, and the BMS enforces this and protects the cells -- they don't normally take the internal cells to either 100% or 0% charge to preserve lifetime, so what appears from the outside as "0%" and "100%" capacity is not that for the cells.

 

If this wasn't the case there's no way they'd be able to provide a 10 year guarantee when used within the specified limits. For 300Ah usable my guess is that the raw cell capacity is probably 350Ah or more, but this is hidden from the user.

 

I get the point about assembled batteries but in the absence of a written specification stating that what you are guessing is correct I'm guessing it probably isn't.

 

Can I ask what experience you have with these batteries?

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, Jackofalltrades said:

I do hear what you are saying but going down the (more expensive) lithium route seems risky from where I'm standing at the moment and the secondhand lithium battery route seems potentially fraught. Would it be possible for you to describe your setup in detail?  I appreciate you might not want to though.

PM  me your fone number and we can talk about it mate

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, Jackofalltrades said:

I get the point about assembled batteries but in the absence of a written specification stating that what you are guessing is correct I'm guessing it probably isn't.

 

Can I ask what experience you have with these batteries?

I don't have direct experience with them, but I understand how batteries like this are designed and specified, they're aimed at the large-scale commercial power market which expects that if a capacity is quoted then that is what is delivered -- because if this isn't the case, BYD get sued.

 

It's also why the unit size of the battery (15kWh) is so big, this means a properly designed and specified BMS can be used internally because even if that costs hundreds of pounds that doesn't matter if the end result is a reliable bomb-proof product.

Edited January 11, 2021 by IanD

[IanD]

10 hours ago, IanD said:

I don't have direct experience with them, but I understand how batteries like this are designed and specified, they're aimed at the large-scale commercial power market which expects that if a capacity is quoted then that is what is delivered -- because if this isn't the case, BYD get sued.

 

It's also why the unit size of the battery (15kWh) is so big, this means a properly designed and specified BMS can be used internally because even if that costs hundreds of pounds that doesn't matter if the end result is a reliable bomb-proof product.

A series hybrid narrowboat is very like a small-scale off-grid (no mains) or grid-tied (reduced mains) power system, with the same target (use as much solar energy as possible) and all the same issues -- how to control charging, connect generator/solar, monitor/protect system and batteries, when to run a generator, what SoC to maintain batteries at and so on.

 

Fortunately for us on the canals, we don't have to reinvent the wheel and solve all these problems ourselves (just like "where does renewable power for BEV come from?) and come up with a working system, the hard work has already been done for a far bigger market so we might as well take advantage of it. Some examples using the BYD batteries:

 

https://www.victronenergy.com/live/battery_compatibility:byd_b-box

https://www.victronenergy.com/live/battery_compatibility:byd_b-box-steps

https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2020/06/09/byd-battery-box-premium-lvl-installation/

https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2020/05/08/off-grid-solar-provides-air-source-heating/

https://www.zerohomebills.com/product/byd-premium-lvl-15-4-kw-solar-battery-with-victron-multiplus-ii-5kw/

https://www.commodoreaustralia.com.au/product/managers-choice-victron-off-grid-solar-power-system-with-byd-lithium-bank-custom/

 

There's a comment on this video around 6:30 about the same technology being applied to the marine/inland waterways market:

 

 

Of course there's nothing stopping people who know what they're doing and are willing to put the effort in (or want to do it as a project) from rolling-their-own system like Peter and Bob (which also saves money, important if you're not buying a new boat), but the vast majority of people don't want to do this and simply want to buy/install something off-the-shelf that works and is supported if anything goes wrong.

 

[peterboat]

12 minutes ago, IanD said:

A series hybrid narrowboat is very like a small-scale off-grid (no mains) or grid-tied (reduced mains) power system, with the same target (use as much solar energy as possible) and all the same issues -- how to control charging, connect generator/solar, monitor/protect system and batteries, when to run a generator, what SoC to maintain batteries at and so on.

 

Fortunately for us on the canals, we don't have to reinvent the wheel and solve all these problems ourselves (just like "where does renewable power for BEV come from?) and come up with a working system, the hard work has already been done for a far bigger market so we might as well take advantage of it. Some examples using the BYD batteries:

 

https://www.victronenergy.com/live/battery_compatibility:byd_b-box

https://www.victronenergy.com/live/battery_compatibility:byd_b-box-steps

https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2020/06/09/byd-battery-box-premium-lvl-installation/

https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2020/05/08/off-grid-solar-provides-air-source-heating/

https://www.zerohomebills.com/product/byd-premium-lvl-15-4-kw-solar-battery-with-victron-multiplus-ii-5kw/

https://www.commodoreaustralia.com.au/product/managers-choice-victron-off-grid-solar-power-system-with-byd-lithium-bank-custom/

 

There's a comment on this video around 6:30 about the same technology being applied to the marine/inland waterways market:

 

 

Of course there's nothing stopping people who know what they're doing and are willing to put the effort in (or want to do it as a project) from rolling-their-own system like Peter and Bob (which also saves money, important if you're not buying a new boat), but the vast majority of people don't want to do this and simply want to buy/install something off-the-shelf that works and is supported if anything goes wrong.

 

Go to finess job done if you want an electric boat 

Edited January 12, 2021 by peterboat

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, peterboat said:

Go to fitness job done if you want an electric boat 

 

I thought all the gyms were closed, or are they now diversifying into boat sales so as to remain open ?