Budget for a second-hand boat and some questions

[MajorJones]

@MoominPapa Yes, I see what you are saying. It's a perfect explanation for a live afloat case, less that much for a holiday boat. I personally believe that fully electric or hybrid is the future, not quite sure if now is the right time or should we wait couple of years to change diesel for electricity. I'll talk to few boat builders mentioned above in this thread to understand their perspective, as I hope they can build a strong case for or against the idea.

[MrsM]

https://www.abnb.co.uk/boat_pages/3608web/3608mobile.php?BoatID=3608

Not semi-trad but quite nice imho.

[MoominPapa]

26 minutes ago, MajorJones said:

@MoominPapa Yes, I see what you are saying. It's a perfect explanation for a live afloat case, less that much for a holiday boat. I personally believe that fully electric or hybrid is the future, not quite sure if now is the right time or should we wait couple of years to change diesel for electricity. I'll talk to few boat builders mentioned above in this thread to understand their perspective, as I hope they can build a strong case for or against the idea.

Yes, redundant systems are a must-have for a liveaboard boat.

 

It's also worth noting that the broken generator has had to have visits from specialists being paid to travel 80 miles each way, has taken weeks to fix and will cost thousands. You'd have to have a very unlucky to have a boat diesel which fails that badly.

 

MP

[cuthound]

22 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Silent cruising for some of the time, no fumes in locks. 

 

Both nice to haves, but not worth £27k to me.  That said, you can knock off ~£8k for the core Beta 43, but that still leaves £20k extra cost for a big battery bank and an inverter if you aren't intending to use the electric motor drive.

 

I'd have one, but wouldn't try and go gas free with it.  I'd fit a damn sight more than 1.2 kW of solar as well!

 

There was recently a rant thread about one of the boats that has a built-in genset and all electric drive who moored up silently then started the genny running at 9pm ...

 

If the boat uses lead acid batteries, then they will need replacing every 2-5 years, on top of the diesel costs. Ouch.

 

If it used lithium batteries, then they MAY last 10 years. No one really knows because one has used them in this type of application for that amount of time yet and batteties are chemical devices, so very difficult to factor in all the variables for computer modelling.

[Alan de Enfield]

29 minutes ago, cuthound said:

If the boat uses lead acid batteries, then they will need replacing every 2-5 years, on top of the diesel costs. Ouch.

But with the OPs proposed system you are going to have very similar fuel consumption as running the engine produces between 1 and 2 hours propulsion for very hour on the engine. 

If we take the 2 hours as being 'a bit of sales talk' and take one hour of propulsion per one hour on the engine as more achievable then the fuel consumption will be pretty much identical.

 

£30,000 for an 'electrical system'  (£10k for batteries ?) that might last 10 years, compared to 4x 110Ah batteries at £70 each lasting 2 years. = £140 per annum or £1400 over 10 years.

 

£10,000 or £1400, over 10 years and pretty much the same fuel costs.

[MajorJones]

@Alan de Enfield I don't think this is something that can be compared by the ownership costs over 10 years exclusively. Is it expensive? Yes it is. Does it have benefits for some type of boaters - for sure.

[peterboat]

On 09/09/2020 at 13:01, MoominPapa said:

It's not the inability to move that's the problem, it's the inability to live on board. If our engine breaks down, we're stuck until it's fixed or we get a tow, but we can still heat the boat, and cook, and make enough electricity to keep the lights on and the computers running from solar and a suitcase generator.  Making all the systems depend on large quantities of electricity means that when your on-board supply is toast, you either have to move off, or stay plugged in, and if you're somewhere with no shore supply, better hope that what's left in the batteries is enough to get you somewhere where there is.

 

MP

If my motor breaks and your engine breaks I will be fine solar and whispergen will keep me going forever, I think my outcome is way better than yours as I have so much less to go wrong in the first place? and I carry a spare speed controller already, your assumption is that all my supply systems have to go down very unlikely as is the same for you, also I have two MPPT controllers both of which can replace each other with switches, in fact you are much more at risk than me

[peterboat]

23 hours ago, MoominPapa said:

Yes, redundant systems are a must-have for a liveaboard boat.

 

It's also worth noting that the broken generator has had to have visits from specialists being paid to travel 80 miles each way, has taken weeks to fix and will cost thousands. You'd have to have a very unlucky to have a boat diesel which fails that badly.

 

MP

As an ex genny mechanic in the Army I can say latterly the gennys were very reliable probably as reliable as  the engine and gearbox of an average narrowboat

21 hours ago, cuthound said:

 

If the boat uses lead acid batteries, then they will need replacing every 2-5 years, on top of the diesel costs. Ouch.

 

If it used lithium batteries, then they MAY last 10 years. No one really knows because one has used them in this type of application for that amount of time yet and batteties are chemical devices, so very difficult to factor in all the variables for computer modelling.

My LifePo4 batteries are over ten years old already and I expect them to do a lot of years more, I dont stress them like they were in their original design job so they are coasting along enjoying life and the sunshine, with a very easy charging regime

[cuthound]

11 minutes ago, peterboat said:

As an ex genny mechanic in the Army I can say latterly the gennys were very reliable probably as reliable as  the engine and gearbox of an average narrowboat

My LifePo4 batteries are over ten years old already and I expect them to do a lot of years more, I dont stress them like they were in their original design job so they are coasting along enjoying life and the sunshine, with a very easy charging regime

 

According to this article you are on borrowed time then.

 

https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/articles/battery-articles/lithium-battery-overview.html#:~:text=LiFePO4 life expectancy is approximately,LiCoO2%2C or Lithium Cobalt Oxide.

[peterboat]

3 minutes ago, cuthound said:

 

According to this article you are on borrowed time then.

 

https://www.batterystuff.com/kb/articles/battery-articles/lithium-battery-overview.html#:~:text=LiFePO4 life expectancy is approximately,LiCoO2%2C or Lithium Cobalt Oxide.

Very old site and I would suspect out of date, I think for the time they were being careful which isnt a bad thing. Nowadays I would expect 20 years out of my batteries on my usage and maybe more

[MoominPapa]

1 hour ago, peterboat said:

If my motor breaks and your engine breaks I will be fine solar and whispergen will keep me going forever, I think my outcome is way better than yours as I have so much less to go wrong in the first place? and I carry a spare speed controller already, your assumption is that all my supply systems have to go down very unlikely as is the same for you, also I have two MPPT controllers both of which can replace each other with switches, in fact you are much more at risk than me

No argument, but one of the attractions of hybrid and electric boats for many people seems to be the ablility to go "all electric" with no stove and electric cooking. It's those boats that are up a creek without a paddle when the single power source fails.

 

MP.