Budget for a second-hand boat and some questions

[David Mack]

20 minutes ago, MajorJones said:

 

As for the painting - I'm going to go to one of the shops, not doing it myself (after all I want it to look stellar, and the boat painting is not the skill I have under my belt).

Well, there's most of your £10k gone already.

[MajorJones]

10 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Well, there's most of your £10k gone already.

It seems I need to itemise properly what's missing and get relevant quotes from shops and merchants. Thank you for sobering me up!

[David Mack]

A previous thread on repainting costs:

 

[TheBiscuits]

Just now, MajorJones said:

It seems I need to itemise properly what's missing and get relevant quotes from shops and merchants. Thank you for sobering me up!

 

We get quite a few people who decide to buy a secondhand boat, strip it back to bare steel and start over.  Some of them get quite cross when we (gently) point out that it costs the same in time/materials to fit an old hull out as a new hull, and that a 40 year old Springer is unlikely to ever be worth what they have spent on refitting it.  

 

You just approached it from the opposite direction, but it's always worth asking the question.  I do agree with other comments above though - the old joke is it costs three times as much and takes twice as long as you think to fit out a boat.

[MajorJones]

11 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

We get quite a few people who decide to buy a secondhand boat, strip it back to bare steel and start over.  Some of them get quite cross when we (gently) point out that it costs the same in time/materials to fit an old hull out as a new hull, and that a 40 year old Springer is unlikely to ever be worth what they have spent on refitting it.  

 

You just approached it from the opposite direction, but it's always worth asking the question.  I do agree with other comments above though - the old joke is it costs three times as much and takes twice as long as you think to fit out a boat.

I do fully appreciate all comments and thoughts here - I have no illusion I may have a better understanding of the situation compared to someone who did it before, after all - it's my first rodeo. 

 

As for my journey - I do have an ideal boat in mind, but it's from Ortomarine and alike, and starts from 135k so not this time, hence the whole wiggle between second-hand for 50-60k vs should I spend a "tad bit" more and aim for a 70k but have a boat that is brand spanking new. Having a broad selection of second-hand NBs that fit my requirements I would not probably even consider a new build this time.

Edited September 8, 2020 by MajorJones

[Alan de Enfield]

54 minutes ago, MajorJones said:

I'm trying to understand what's the difference between 'finished' boat and what LMBS is offering as lined+, so far I understand I'm missing:

- "kitchen" (galley, appliances)

- dinette, furniture

- webasto

- radiators

 

I don't want/need stove - it's a holiday boat for us, so I'd rather have more space and go dust free.

As for the gas - I've decided that if we go second-hand it will be a traditional engine+gas, but if we decide to take lined+ to finish it I'd go with the Hybrid Marine 10kw system (so no gas at all). 

 

Have I missed something still?

 

The 'Elephant in the room' is replacing the electricity used for both propulsion, heating and cooking.

 

There are many who have tried to 'make an all electric' boat work and very very few have succeeded.

It seems counter-intuitive to run an engine to charge the batteries (and get the 10% losses) the use the batteries to to drive a motor (and get X% losses), its is far more efficient to use the engine to turn the prop.

Heating with electricity is really a no-no unless you have a generator running to keep the batteries charged.

Remember a 2kw immersion heater will take 200Ah from you batteries for each hour it is 'on'.

 

You could investigate using lithium batteries but battery management becomes critical and the cost (for many) is prohibitive (£10k ?) There are many threads on using lithium and electric drives and several members have electric boats.

 

For me, the technology is neither robust enough or cheap enough.

[MajorJones]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The 'Elephant in the room' is replacing the electricity used for both propulsion, heating and cooking.

If I go with the hybrid system I'm copying what has done few times already in the last two years using ready kit from Hybrid Marine, but I have no intensions of going "ultra green" - idea of a hybrid kit and webasto doesn't sound wrong to me. 

 

[MrsM]

Hi there. Absolutely see the temptation of a sailaway but from what I've heard it is EXTREMELY easy to underestimate the skills needed, the time and the cost of finishing a boat; which is one of the reasons quite a few come on to the market as unfinished projects. Also keep in mind that the resale value of a DIY fitout can be less than for the same boat with a professional fitout. Saying that we saw at least one DIY boat that was finished to an exceptional standard (I loved it but it didn't have the reverse layout we were after and o'half put his foot down ?). You will also need to find a base that will permit you to work on your boat - not all marinas will. You are after a family holiday boat; your budget would buy you a nice ready-made holiday boat that you and your family can start enjoying immediately. All said, we need people to support the build and supply of new boats so good luck whichever way you decide to go. 

Ps good boats, well priced sell quickly regardless of the time of year. Also a decent professional paint job is not cheap and could double your £10k fitout budget! 

[TheBiscuits]

7 minutes ago, MajorJones said:

If I go with the hybrid system I'm copying what has done few times already in the last two years using ready kit from Hybrid Marine

 

That's a significant chunk of your budget gone before you even choose a boat! 

 

I quite like the idea of the hybrid kits personally, but there are very few of them around to get a good feel of how they perform in practice. 

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, MajorJones said:

If I go with the hybrid system I'm copying what has done few times already in the last two years using ready kit from Hybrid Marine,

Just as a matter of interest what is the cost of such a system - I cannot find anything online,

 

The 400Ah battery bank gives 3-5 hours cruising - when do you re-charge you batteries ?

Is it that you run the engine whilst cruising, or wait until you moor up and then run the engine ? (remembering that you cannot run the engine 8pm to 8am)

 

I know 'electric' is coming but I really don't see any benefit (just loads more complexity) with a hybrid system - you are still having to produce as much energy as you would using the engine to power the gearbox, and if you are gas-free will need to produce 100's of Ah extra for heating / cooking.

 

Your money, your choice, your boat - but - for me it just doesn't make sense.

[MajorJones]

1 hour ago, MrsM said:

Hi there. Absolutely see the temptation of a sailaway but from what I've heard it is EXTREMELY easy to underestimate the skills needed, the time and the cost of finishing a boat; which is one of the reasons quite a few come on to the market as unfinished projects. Also keep in mind that the resale value of a DIY fitout can be less than for the same boat with a professional fitout. Saying that we saw at least one DIY boat that was finished to an exceptional standard (I loved it but it didn't have the reverse layout we were after and o'half put his foot down ?). You will also need to find a base that will permit you to work on your boat - not all marinas will. You are after a family holiday boat; your budget would buy you a nice ready-made holiday boat that you and your family can start enjoying immediately. All said, we need people to support the build and supply of new boats so good luck whichever way you decide to go. 

Ps good boats, well priced sell quickly regardless of the time of year. Also a decent professional paint job is not cheap and could double your £10k fitout budget! 

All things considered it seems it won't save us any money, I'm still toying with idea to get a lined+ sailaway and finish it myself as a way to know our boat inside out, that includes taking her from a boat builder to my shop in Kent and then moving to Oxford when done. But the more I calculate everything the more obvious it is that there is no saving in it even before I add cost of my time. (so tempting though! lol)

1 hour ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

That's a significant chunk of your budget gone before you even choose a boat! 

 

I quite like the idea of the hybrid kits personally, but there are very few of them around to get a good feel of how they perform in practice. 

It's more than my budget, but the idea is if I go hybrid the cost associated comes from a different budget.

[MajorJones]

54 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Just as a matter of interest what is the cost of such a system - I cannot find anything online,

 

The 400Ah battery bank gives 3-5 hours cruising - when do you re-charge you batteries ?

Is it that you run the engine whilst cruising, or wait until you moor up and then run the engine ? (remembering that you cannot run the engine 8pm to 8am)

 

I know 'electric' is coming but I really don't see any benefit (just loads more complexity) with a hybrid system - you are still having to produce as much energy as you would using the engine to power the gearbox, and if you are gas-free will need to produce 100's of Ah extra for heating / cooking.

 

Your money, your choice, your boat - but - for me it just doesn't make sense.

400ah will set you back in a region of £24k and they have a 'double the battery' offer with the larger inverter ( 5kVA / 10kVA peak) for around £27k so you can get up to 12h cruising. Also, The nice side effect is that you can remote control your boat (handy when you do locks alone).

The best way to charge it is when cruising - 1200rpm gives you 7kW generation capability.
Plus, I don't think it makes total sense without an array of solar panels (something like 8 x 160W).

 

So for me personally it all sounds absolutely fantastic. The only thing that doesn't - is the price.

[Alan de Enfield]

42 minutes ago, MajorJones said:

400ah will set you back in a region of £24k and they have a 'double the battery' offer with the larger inverter ( 5kVA / 10kVA peak) for around £27k so you can get up to 12h cruising. Also, The nice side effect is that you can remote control your boat (handy when you do locks alone).

The best way to charge it is when cruising - 1200rpm gives you 7kW generation capability.
Plus, I don't think it makes total sense without an array of solar panels (something like 8 x 160W).

 

So for me personally it all sounds absolutely fantastic. The only thing that doesn't - is the price.

 

Thankyou - you buy buy a reasonable boat for £24-£27k

 

You still need to put fuel in the 'hybrid' so you are not even saving that, if you are 'green' the emissions are not dissimilar to an 'engine powered boat', you are going to have the same amount of noise for a similar time each day.

 

You only get 3-5 hours from the standard batteries and 6-10 hours** on the 'double battery pack, but that does not include  the 200Ah + (boaters with a stove and gas average about 100Ah per day) that you will use - you will need to run the engine many additional hours on a 'non-gas' boat.

 

I find it questionably viable that you get between 1 and 2 hours  propulsion for each hour the engine is run

 

"Every hour of engine drive can store enough energy in the batteries to travel between 1 and 2 hours in electric drive".

 

- where is the additional energy going to come from to supply the 'gas free boat' how many extra hours will it need to run for  ?

 

 

Maybe being a bit of a technophobe  but I just cannot see how you can say "it sounds absolutely fantastic", I can see no gains over a conventional boat.

 

** Manufacturers figures.

In normal calm canal conditions you can drive on the electric motor for prolonged periods. How long you can go on electric drive depends on the size of your batteries. A 48V / 400Ah battery bank would last around 3 to 5 hours, a larger bank of around 48V/800Ah would last 6-10 hours.

 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[TheBiscuits]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Maybe being a bit of a technophobe  but I just cannot see how you can say "it sounds absolutely fantastic", I can see no gains over a conventional boat.

 

Silent cruising for some of the time, no fumes in locks. 

 

Both nice to haves, but not worth £27k to me.  That said, you can knock off ~£8k for the core Beta 43, but that still leaves £20k extra cost for a big battery bank and an inverter if you aren't intending to use the electric motor drive.

 

I'd have one, but wouldn't try and go gas free with it.  I'd fit a damn sight more than 1.2 kW of solar as well!

 

There was recently a rant thread about one of the boats that has a built-in genset and all electric drive who moored up silently then started the genny running at 9pm ...

[peterboat]

4 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The boat will have no electrics or gas (just cables / pipes sticking out of the wall, no appliances, no heating, no stove, no decorative 'stuff' no cupboards, worktops, etc

 

Basically just a long thin steel tube with a wooden lining and an engine at the back.

 

Here is what you get :

 

 

What’s included in our Sailaway specification

 

• New steel hull of customers choice
• Steel spec of 10-6-4-4 or higher
• New diesel engine fitted
• Twin 12 volt alternators for charging
• Engine starter battery fitted
• Windows and/or port holes fitted
• Rear doors & front doors
• One set of side doors
• Bilge pump fitted

 

• Diesel tank
• Gas bottle locker
• Ballasted with concrete block
• Floored with high quality plywood
• Craned onto the water at the boatyard
• Professional boat commission & handover
• Turn the key sail away
• Boat to comply to RCD 2013/53EU  from 3rd August 2017
• Builder plate & CE marked
• Boat owners manual

 

 

 

 

A Sailaway Insulated boat also includes

 

• Roof & cabin sides battened

 

• Spray foamed insulated applied

 

 

 

 

A Standard Lined boat also includes 

 

• Spray insulation cut & trimmed
• Lower battens fitted on sides
• Full 12volt & 240volt wire tails to customers requirements
• 12v main circuit board connected to wire tails
• 12v domestic battery bank fitted (4 x 100ah battery’s)
• 12v engine alternator connected to battery bank
• 12v LED lights fitted (up to 20)
• 12v horn and head light fitted
• 12v voltage gauge  for domestic battery bank
• 240v outside hook up point
• 240v main circuit board connected to tails
• Galvanic isolator fitted
• 240v sockets fitted (up to 6)

 

• Cabin fully lined in high quality ash veneered plywood
• Trimmed with ash hardwood
• Rear doors and hatch lined
• Side doors lined
• Front doors lined and glazed
• 3 bulkheads fitted
• Stainless steel water tank fitted
• Roof vents and internal covers
• Low level vent covers
• Anodes fitted
• Boat to comply with RCD 2013/53/EU
• Annex IV declaration of conformity
• Craft identification number issued
• Owners manual
• Builders plate and CE marked

Lined additions gives you more Alan

[MajorJones]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Thankyou - you buy buy a reasonable boat for £24-£27k

 

You still need to put fuel in the 'hybrid' so you are not even saving that, if you are 'green' the emissions are not dissimilar to an 'engine powered boat', you are going to have the same amount of noise for a similar time each day.

 

You only get 3-5 hours from the standard batteries and 6-10 hours on the 'double battery pack, but that does not include  the 200Ah + (boaters with a stove and gas average about 100Ah per day) that you will use - you will need to run the engine many additional hours on a 'non-gas' boat.

 

I find it questionably viable that you get between 1 and 2 hours  propulsion for each hour the engine is run

 

"Every hour of engine drive can store enough energy in the batteries to travel between 1 and 2 hours in electric drive".

 

- where is the additional energy going to come from to supply the 'gas free boat' how many extra hours will it need to run for  ?

 

 

Maybe being a bit of a technophobe  but I just cannot see how you can say "it sounds absolutely fantastic", I can see no gains over a conventional boat.

Based on their math and generation of 7KW I don't see an issue of getting 1 hour of electric propulsion from 1 hour of diesel propulsion (but that doesn't include any other consumption). 

 

As for the benefits - I see some:

- having 3 hours of 'silent' cruising every day (we tend to cruise for 6-7 hours a day)

- going through the locks without diesel exhaust

- no need to think about gas bottles

- I find non-gas hobs and stoves much cleaner (and we all are a bit OCD when it comes to clean kitchen).

- We plan to have half of our cruises to be short trips (2-3 days) - so batteries can be charged from the shore, where diesel generation is an addition.

 

Having said that - I do understand that it all could be better, and the price is frightening. And I'm sure in a couple of years hybrid generators will produce more, while batteries will cost less. So my original plan to get a second-hand NB and only few years after that get a new build with a hybrid system seems the most reasonable to me (I do understand hybrids are not everyones cup of tea, of course).

 

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Silent cruising for some of the time, no fumes in locks. 

I guess if you have a normal stove, cooker heating etc , then YES, you may get 50% of the time as 'silent cruising', but having to heat the water (shower), cook and heat the boat then I reckon you'd be running the engine 100% (or more) of the time spent moving to have some 'amps' available for everything else.

 

Agreed that on top of your £20k, you''d need to invest in the maximum area of solar.

 

Only benefit ' no fumes in locks (but you can always turn the diesel engine of for 10 / 15 / 20 minutes)

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, MajorJones said:

So my original plan to get a second-hand NB and only few years after that get a new build with a hybrid system seems the most reasonable to me

 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[peterboat]

58 minutes ago, MajorJones said:

400ah will set you back in a region of £24k and they have a 'double the battery' offer with the larger inverter ( 5kVA / 10kVA peak) for around £27k so you can get up to 12h cruising. Also, The nice side effect is that you can remote control your boat (handy when you do locks alone).

The best way to charge it is when cruising - 1200rpm gives you 7kW generation capability.
Plus, I don't think it makes total sense without an array of solar panels (something like 8 x 160W).

 

So for me personally it all sounds absolutely fantastic. The only thing that doesn't - is the price.

I have a full electric drive boat motor fitted by myself, I have secondhand LifePo4s as they are way better than the traction batteries on offer from the Hybrid makers and only cost 2.5k for 36 KWHs  the rest cost me about 1.5K. The Hybrid system on offer for me is way overpriced. I would go full electric, large solar array, large LifePo4 battery bank and built in Genny that way you get the 25% discount on the license which I can assure you is a good saving

[MajorJones]

19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I guess if you have a normal stove, cooker heating etc , then YES, you may get 50% of the time as 'silent cruising', but having to heat the water (shower), cook and heat the boat then I reckon you'd be running the engine 100% (or more) of the time spent moving to have some 'amps' available for everything else.

I may be wrong, but I thought that heating of a boat is done with webasto/eberspacher and it uses diesel rather than electricity or gas?

 

As for the calorifier - I thought it is plumbed into the engine coolant re-circulation system plus it has electric immersion heater?

 

So to summarise - my understanding was that the only use for gas is a hob and a stove - am I wrong?

Edited September 8, 2020 by MajorJones

[MajorJones]

2 minutes ago, peterboat said:

I have a full electric drive boat motor fitted by myself, I have secondhand LifePo4s as they are way better than the traction batteries on offer from the Hybrid makers and only cost 2.5k for 36 KWHs  the rest cost me about 1.5K. The Hybrid system on offer for me is way overpriced. I would go full electric, large solar array, large LifePo4 battery bank and built in Genny that way you get the 25% discount on the license which I can assure you is a good saving

Full electric boat frightens me in the same way as Tesla does. I do understand the concept, I do understand I don't need more than it can provide, but I still do not feel comfortable with the idea. Perhaps for me it's a matter of making sure I won't be left stranded with the empty battery in the middle of a motorway canal.

 

Is there a post or an article where you have talked about your build? It will be super interesting to read about it!!

[TheBiscuits]

10 minutes ago, MajorJones said:

I find non-gas hobs and stoves much cleaner (and we all are a bit OCD when it comes to clean kitchen).

 

Have a look at the Wallas range of diesel stoves/hobs/ovens.

 

https://www.kuranda.co.uk/product-category/wallas/wallas-diesel-hobs-and-ovens/

[MajorJones]

Just now, TheBiscuits said:

 

Have a look at the Wallas range of diesel stoves/hobs/ovens.

 

https://www.kuranda.co.uk/product-category/wallas/wallas-diesel-hobs-and-ovens/

My gosh, I didn't even know such thing exists!

 

p.s. Read the brochure and the manual of a hob - such an ingenious thing. Definitely bookmarked for the new build. (So easy to overspend when you want to have nice things)

[TheBiscuits]

3 minutes ago, MajorJones said:

My gosh, I didn't even know such thing exists!

 

p.s. Read the brochure and the manual of a hob - such an ingenious thing. Definitely bookmarked for the new build. (So easy to overspend when you want to have nice things)

 

It's the only sensible way to have a gas free boat, but cooking over an open fire of £10 notes works out about the same cost! 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

17 minutes ago, MajorJones said:

I may be wrong, but I thought that heating of a boat is done with webasto/eberspacher and it uses diesel rather than electricity or gas?

Apologies - I forgot the Webasto.

 

But it is still a 'diesel' user so going against the (alleged) green benefits of a Hybrid.

 

Worst of both worlds - Go Electric or Diesel why try and do both ?

[MajorJones]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Apologies - I forgot the Webasto.

 

But it is still a 'diesel' user so going against the (alleged) green benefits of a Hybrid.

 

Worst of both worlds - Go Electric or Diesel why try and do both ?

I believe I have mentioned it above, but don't mind saying it again - in my head it's not about being 'green', but about nice things I can have with the electric propulsion explained in my previous post (I totally understand they may not make sense for anyone but me). Except the price.