Budget for a second-hand boat and some questions

[peterboat]

43 minutes ago, MajorJones said:

Full electric boat frightens me in the same way as Tesla does. I do understand the concept, I do understand I don't need more than it can provide, but I still do not feel comfortable with the idea. Perhaps for me it's a matter of making sure I won't be left stranded with the empty battery in the middle of a motorway canal.

 

Is there a post or an article where you have talked about your build? It will be super interesting to read about it!!

You need to talk to Finness boats Richard who is Johnathan Wilson's Son in law is heavily involved in electric boats. Its really the future and will be far better than a hybrid honestly 

[MajorJones]

Just now, peterboat said:

You need to talk to Finness boats Richard who is Johnathan Wilson's Son in law is heavily involved in electric boats. Its really the future and will be far better than a hybrid honestly 

II will, thank you! I've seen their boats - expensive, but quality is top-notch!

[peterboat]

2 hours ago, MajorJones said:

II will, thank you! I've seen their boats - expensive, but quality is top-notch!

Mine is a Jonny boat and the quality is very good 

[MajorJones]

Guys, you've told me to be open-minded and do not disregard NBs that are not my ideal setup. Also you have advised to post here NBs I consider so you can give your pros and cons. So what do you think about this one?

 

https://newandusedboat.co.uk/used-boats-for-sale/1452

 

My concerts:

- 63ft rather than 57ft - is it a big problem? (My main mooring is about to be at Oxford/Union)

- Cruiser - Don't like cruiser type that much, but I assume I can remove half of the railing and weld benches each side?

 

Thoughts?

[matty40s]

63ft, possibly the most stupid length of a boat on the UK network, limited to everything a 70 footer can do, with 7feet less inside to enjoy it with.

 

Who are Findlay Properties, cupboards dont look to fit properly and kitchen looks very tight.

 

To sit on the toilet also looks a challenge.

Exterior looks Ok.(viewing on a mobile)

 

[TheBiscuits]

12 minutes ago, matty40s said:

63ft, possibly the most stupid length of a boat on the UK network, limited to everything a 70 footer can do, with 7feet less inside to enjoy it with.

 

Slightly disagree, having taken a 64ft narrowboat (carefully!) over the L&L.  Probably not the ideal boating introduction for a novice though.

 

15 minutes ago, matty40s said:

cupboards dont look to fit properly and kitchen looks very tight.

 

The galley would need reworking on that one, yes.

 

16 minutes ago, matty40s said:

 

To sit on the toilet also looks a challenge.

 

Swivel it out to use it, swivel it back to use the shower... not ideal!  

[MajorJones]

48 minutes ago, matty40s said:

63ft, possibly the most stupid length of a boat on the UK network, limited to everything a 70 footer can do, with 7feet less inside to enjoy it with.

 

Who are Findlay Properties, cupboards dont look to fit properly and kitchen looks very tight.

 

To sit on the toilet also looks a challenge.

Exterior looks Ok.(viewing on a mobile)

 

63ft is stupid, I agree. But the idea of 2 bedrooms + 2 guests is so tempting. I'm not sure I can fit that into 57ft?

 

As for 70ft - I hated it every time I had to cruise on it, size does matter and that one is just to big for my taste lol

 

Haven't even noticed the toilet position until you and @TheBiscuits have pointed out! I guess that's the reason why it makes sense to run it by you guys!

 

As for "Who are Findlay Properties" - It seems that when boat is fitted by an owner and not a well-known boat builder it's about 10% cheaper, not the case when this one was fitted by a London property management company (or so it seems). So apparently a big no?

22 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Probably not the ideal boating introduction for a novice though.

Why is that? I had my fair share of 70ft and yes, I don't like it still don't see it as an issue. Or are you referring to passing the locks diagonally? 

Edited September 8, 2020 by MajorJones

[TheBiscuits]

4 minutes ago, MajorJones said:

Why is that? I had my fair share of 70ft and yes, I don't like it still don't see it as an issue. Or are you referring to passing the locks diagonally? 

 

62 X 14 feet nominal on the locks, most of which have leaking headgate seals or waterfalls through the cill.  I have often offered 57 foot boats a roll of duct tape at the first lock, and they laugh it off because they won't be fooled by Northern humour.

 

By lock 2 I could sell the same roll to them for a couple of hundred quid, because it's less than the excess on their insurance ...

[peterboat]

14 minutes ago, MajorJones said:

63ft is stupid, I agree. But the idea of 2 bedrooms + 2 guests is so tempting. I'm not sure I can fit that into 57ft?

 

As for 70ft - I hated it every time I had to cruise on it, size does matter and that one is just to big for my taste lol

 

Haven't even noticed the toilet position until you and @TheBiscuits have pointed out! I guess that's the reason why it makes sense to run it by you guys!

 

As for "Who are Findlay Properties" - It seems that when boat is fitted by an owner and not a well-known boat builder it's about 10% cheaper, not the case when this one was fitted by a London property management company (or so it seems). So apparently a big no?

Why is that? I had my fair share of 70ft and yes, I don't like it still don't see it as an issue. Or are you referring to passing the locks diagonally? 

It's a bit to white for me I am afraid 

[MajorJones]

12 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

62 X 14 feet nominal on the locks, most of which have leaking headgate seals or waterfalls through the cill.  I have often offered 57 foot boats a roll of duct tape at the first lock, and they laugh it off because they won't be fooled by Northern humour.

 

By lock 2 I could sell the same roll to them for a couple of hundred quid, because it's less than the excess on their insurance ...

I'm afraid I'm too slow to understand that one. Can you explain please? You have 57ft (or up to 64 in that matter), you have cratch and pram and how duct tape is going to help?

[TheBiscuits]

3 minutes ago, MajorJones said:

I'm afraid I'm too slow to understand that one. Can you explain please? You have 57ft (or up to 64 in that matter), you have cratch and pram and how duct tape is going to help?

 

Not slow, just not done it I'd guess.

 

With a truly watertight cratch cover you'd be fine, but most of them are not quite as watertight as they seem. Without one, taped shut bow doors and vent grilles really do help. Uphill.

 

Downhill, where most get upset, the pram hood needs folding down to get through the lock bridges.  All of a sudden the companiable space on the cruiser stern is a boat sinking liability, so taping the deck boards and rear doors starts looking like a good idea!

[MajorJones]

16 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Not slow, just not done it I'd guess.

 

With a truly watertight cratch cover you'd be fine, but most of them are not quite as watertight as they seem. Without one, taped shut bow doors and vent grilles really do help. Uphill.

 

Downhill, where most get upset, the pram hood needs folding down to get through the lock bridges.  All of a sudden the companiable space on the cruiser stern is a boat sinking liability, so taping the deck boards and rear doors starts looking like a good idea!

Blimey, I guess you do learn something new every day! TBH, I've never been in the lock where water flow exceeds your cratch/pram capability. It seems I have to put a duct tape next to a tiller now!

[TheBiscuits]

5 minutes ago, MajorJones said:

Blimey, I guess you do learn something new every day! TBH, I've never been in the lock where water flow exceeds your cratch/pram capability. It seems I have to put a duct tape next to a tiller now!

 

Nah, I'll sell you some for £200 a roll! 

 

[restlessnomad]

6 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

62 X 14 feet nominal on the locks, most of which have leaking headgate seals or waterfalls through the cill.  I have often offered 57 foot boats a roll of duct tape at the first lock, and they laugh it off because they won't be fooled by Northern humour.

 

By lock 2 I could sell the same roll to them for a couple of hundred quid, because it's less than the excess on their insurance ...

I thought 57 ft is the most normal size of narrowboat sold? did not know they have that difficulty in locks.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, restlessnomad said:

I thought 57 ft is the most normal size of narrowboat sold? did not know they have that difficulty in locks.

 

It is not the NB that is the 'wrong size', it is the ever increasing lack of maintenance  resulting in ever bigger and bigger 'jets' of water below, between or down the sides of the gates that is the 'fault', remember that a lot of boats do not have a fore-deck cover.

[MoominPapa]

18 hours ago, MajorJones said:

If I go with the hybrid system I'm copying what has done few times already in the last two years using ready kit from Hybrid Marine, but I have no intensions of going "ultra green" - idea of a hybrid kit and webasto doesn't sound wrong to me. 

 

In my travels I've come across a boat fitted with that. I was poking around the engine compartment because the very complicated 48v charging system was bust. The electric motor had been removed because it got in the way and was never used. 

 

There's a  full electric boat stuck in the marina just down the river from us. Their generator is U/S and until it's fixed they have no choice but to stay put and pay marina fees, since without shore power they can't move, can't heat water and can't cook.

 

Finally, please don't become one of those boaters who have to fill the boat behind them with noise and diesel fumes in order to cook dinner.

 

MP.

[peterboat]

15 minutes ago, MoominPapa said:

In my travels I've come across a boat fitted with that. I was poking around the engine compartment because the very complicated 48v charging system was bust. The electric motor had been removed because it got in the way and was never used. 

 

There's a  full electric boat stuck in the marina just down the river from us. Their generator is U/S and until it's fixed they have no choice but to stay put and pay marina fees, since without shore power they can't move, can't heat water and can't cook.

 

Finally, please don't become one of those boaters who have to fill the boat behind them with noise and diesel fumes in order to cook dinner.

 

MP.

I can show you boats that have broken diesel engines in our marina MP it's a fact of life things break but electric motors less so because fewer. Moving parts. They are inherently reliable,  and the boat with the broken genny should have solar as well backup is always required 

[MajorJones]

45 minutes ago, MoominPapa said:

In my travels I've come across a boat fitted with that. I was poking around the engine compartment because the very complicated 48v charging system was bust. The electric motor had been removed because it got in the way and was never used. 

 

There's a  full electric boat stuck in the marina just down the river from us. Their generator is U/S and until it's fixed they have no choice but to stay put and pay marina fees, since without shore power they can't move, can't heat water and can't cook.

 

Finally, please don't become one of those boaters who have to fill the boat behind them with noise and diesel fumes in order to cook dinner.

 

MP.

I assume same applies to any type of engine - you can stuck with a diesel as well, the only difference I guess is how easy to source parts and someone who knows how to fix it.

In theory a fully electric system should be much more reliable and be less prone to faults, may be we are not there yet - after all I haven't see Tesla supercharge stations on the canals.

[Richard10002]

10 hours ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Downhill, where most get upset, the pram hood needs folding down to get through the lock bridges. 

Only if you have a pram hood. Surely this applies to any boat of any length with a hood of some kind?

 

Unless I'm missing something? 

[MrsM]

Wasted a few hours last night looking at boats on the market. You are right @MajorJones there are very few used boats that tick all your boxes, and the market is certainly more limited than it was when we started our hunt pre-lockdown. Given your experience hiring, the lack of a healthy supply of used boats and your clear vision for your boat I would have thought you are in a great position to consider a sailaway. If I was in your position and had the time and resources I would probably be very tempted. There's nothing to stop you getting out on the water by hiring again while you are working on your own boat. A dilemma!

Edited September 9, 2020 by MrsM
Change of tack after assessing the market

[MajorJones]

19 minutes ago, MrsM said:

Wasted a few hours last night looking at boats on the market. You are right @MajorJones there are very few used boats that tick all your boxes, and the market is certainly more limited than it was when we started our hunt pre-lockdown. Given your experience hiring, the lack of a healthy supply of used boats and your clear vision for your boat I would have thought you are in a great position to consider a sailaway. If I was in your position and had the time and resources I would probably be very tempted. There's nothing to stop you getting out on the water by hiring again while you are working on your own boat. A dilemma!

My god, what have you done! You've opened pandora box, again! I am so tempted by the idea, I believe I have skills and resources and tools to do so, but so many people are saying that it's a bad idea and 9 out of 10 sailaways are doomed to go on the market as an unfinished project. On the other hand - there is a massive benefit of working with sailaway - I will know every single details of how things are done on our boat.

 

I believe the current lack of boats will be a continuous trend - people with boats have realised they need to upgrade to have more space (hence the flux of shorter boats on the markets) as a lockdown in 35-40ft NB is no fun, people without boats have realised our current staycation is here for decades now and they need to have another type of vacation, people without boats have mortgages pulled and houses prices are as high as never before, so again - looking to buy, etc. So I guess it's just a bad time to buy now, and it will be a bad time to buy for quite a while.

[TheBiscuits]

1 hour ago, Richard10002 said:

Only if you have a pram hood. Surely this applies to any boat of any length with a hood of some kind?

 

Unless I'm missing something? 

 

You'll usually only get soaked or flooded if you're in a 60ft+ boat, because in anything smaller you can keep away from the headgates.  Mine is only 45 ft but I still ride the tailgates on L&L locks.

[MrsM]

Really sorry about lifting the lid! The wise sages on here (not me, I'm a newbie) have probably seen too many people underestimate the challenge of completing a sailaway and rightly urge caution - especially with a first boat. However there are plenty of new boats out on the water and I guess a proportion of these are successful sailaways. When we bought we had only a few months of narrowboating experience behind us and a limited budget so secondhand was definitely right for us. We also have our hands full with property restoration so wanted a boat we could enjoy immediately. Horses for courses ... If you do go for it have an eye on resale. I believe the NB market is generally fairly conservative and early adopters of tech can sometimes pay a high price and end up with a product with limited appeal (for an extreme example search on NB Whitefield!). 10 years ago we designed and built a state of the art modern "Grand Designs" type house. We loved it but knew that it would appeal to a very small market when we came to sell. In the end we covered our costs but would have made much more on a traditional style house built to the same standard. I know nothing about boat electric/hybrid engines (or any engines come to think of it ?) but would imagine the technology will develop and become more affordable in time, as is the case with houses and cars. Best case you will have your perfect boat for an affordable price; worst case you will hate every moment of it and run out of time and money. Even then you will have something to sell on - given the cost of boats at the moment you should at least recover your expenditure. Such a tricky decision. Again, like when buying a house, you never know whether the perfect one will be just round the corner. Guess it's down to how much you are willing to spend and how long you want to wait. Look forward to following your story. Mx

[peterboat]

1 hour ago, MajorJones said:

My god, what have you done! You've opened pandora box, again! I am so tempted by the idea, I believe I have skills and resources and tools to do so, but so many people are saying that it's a bad idea and 9 out of 10 sailaways are doomed to go on the market as an unfinished project. On the other hand - there is a massive benefit of working with sailaway - I will know every single details of how things are done on our boat.

 

I believe the current lack of boats will be a continuous trend - people with boats have realised they need to upgrade to have more space (hence the flux of shorter boats on the markets) as a lockdown in 35-40ft NB is no fun, people without boats have realised our current staycation is here for decades now and they need to have another type of vacation, people without boats have mortgages pulled and houses prices are as high as never before, so again - looking to buy, etc. So I guess it's just a bad time to buy now, and it will be a bad time to buy for quite a while.

Plenty do it and make great boats so give it a whirl

[MoominPapa]

2 hours ago, peterboat said:

I can show you boats that have broken diesel engines in our marina MP it's a fact of life things break but electric motors less so because fewer. Moving parts. They are inherently reliable,  and the boat with the broken genny should have solar as well backup is always required 

It's not the inability to move that's the problem, it's the inability to live on board. If our engine breaks down, we're stuck until it's fixed or we get a tow, but we can still heat the boat, and cook, and make enough electricity to keep the lights on and the computers running from solar and a suitcase generator.  Making all the systems depend on large quantities of electricity means that when your on-board supply is toast, you either have to move off, or stay plugged in, and if you're somewhere with no shore supply, better hope that what's left in the batteries is enough to get you somewhere where there is.

 

MP