Victron gone off

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, frangar said:

For the price of a decent isolator what’s to lose? Standards are a minimum...nothing to say you can’t add to them....given the questionable build quality of some inverters & combis from eBay I know what I’d do! But as always if it’s not my boat or build then others can do as they think best. 

 

Is your alternator wired thru' the isolator switch as well ?

[frangar]

Just now, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Is your alternator wired thru' the isolator switch as well ?

Yes! And it’s got a ANL fuse as well...next?...never blown a diode or reg yet! 

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, frangar said:

Yes! And it’s got a ANL fuse as well...next?...never blown a diode or reg yet! 

That's good to know.

[WotEver]

3 hours ago, frangar said:

What’s your argument against a properly rated isolation switch...eg blue sea not eBay!...I’d much rather have one fitted so in case of a component failure one can isolate the supply sharpish rather than waiting for a 200A plus fuse to blow. 

The fact that you can't leave the boat with the electrics isolated and still charge the batteries.

[frangar]

Just now, WotEver said:

The fact that you can't leave the boat with the electrics isolated and still charge the batteries.

Fit a dedicated isolator for the combi if thats an issue for you

[WotEver]

5 minutes ago, frangar said:

Fit a dedicated isolator for the combi if thats an issue for you

Or save your money and don't introduce more resistance and another point of failure.  That's more of an issue for me.

[frangar]

Just now, WotEver said:

Or save your money and don't introduce more resistance and another point of failure.  That's more of an issue for me.

Thats why I say fit blue sea....but as I said its your boat not mine!

[WotEver]

Just now, frangar said:

Thats why I say fit blue sea....but as I said its your boat not mine!

Absolutely.  You do it your way, and I'll do it in accordance with the BSS and introduce the least number of failure points.

[frangar]

Never had a blue sea isolator fail yet and ive fitted a fair few over the years....and the BSS is a minimum..nothing to say you cant make additions....and extra isolation is a never going to be a BSS fail is it?...Id rather be able to easily isolate parts of system without having to find a tool to remove a fuse.

[WotEver]

21 minutes ago, frangar said:

Never had a blue sea isolator fail yet and ive fitted a fair few over the years....and the BSS is a minimum..nothing to say you cant make additions....and extra isolation is a never going to be a BSS fail is it?...Id rather be able to easily isolate parts of system without having to find a tool to remove a fuse.

Good for you

[nicknorman]

19 minutes ago, frangar said:

Never had a blue sea isolator fail yet and ive fitted a fair few over the years....and the BSS is a minimum..nothing to say you cant make additions....and extra isolation is a never going to be a BSS fail is it?...Id rather be able to easily isolate parts of system without having to find a tool to remove a fuse.

When you are dealing with 2 or 3 hundred amps, every connection and switch, even if it is blue seas, drops voltage.

So what is to be gained? Well I suppose if the Combi failed in some way that it was drawing enough current to go on fire, but not enough to blow the fuse, then you could isolate it with your switch. But only if you were there. Our Combi has been on permanently for 10 years. Most of the time, no-one is there and even if we are on the boat we might be asleep, shopping, working locks etc or otherwise unavailable to isolate the Combi in its time of distress. And how many Combis have gone on fire with the owners present but unable to turn off the power due to no isolation switch? Can you cite any occurrences at all, in the history of the universe? No, I thought not.

[WotEver]

27 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

So what is to be gained?

Nowt, as you pointed out. In fact you lose far more than you gain. But if it makes him happy then fair enough, it’s his boat. 

[blackrose]

These Victron combis are well built and sophisticated bits of kit, but unfortunately they're just far too sensitive for use on boats. In my opinion anyway. 

 

A few years ago i helped a friend in a marina to remove his Victron after it stopped working. It wouldn't provide power direct from the mains.

 

It was checked by Victron and found to be fine and in the end I found that the cause was that the voltage in the marina was a bit high so the Victron had cut out. All the while the sterling battery charger in my boat was working fine. I don't like combis. When a combi fails you lose everything. I'd much rather have a separate charger and inverter. Victrons have some nice features but their kit isn't robust enough for marine use.

Edited August 29, 2020 by blackrose

[frangar]

7 hours ago, nicknorman said:

When you are dealing with 2 or 3 hundred amps, every connection and switch, even if it is blue seas, drops voltage.

So what is to be gained? Well I suppose if the Combi failed in some way that it was drawing enough current to go on fire, but not enough to blow the fuse, then you could isolate it with your switch. But only if you were there. Our Combi has been on permanently for 10 years. Most of the time, no-one is there and even if we are on the boat we might be asleep, shopping, working locks etc or otherwise unavailable to isolate the Combi in its time of distress. And how many Combis have gone on fire with the owners present but unable to turn off the power due to no isolation switch? Can you cite any occurrences at all, in the history of the universe? No, I thought not.

Ahhh. How did I know this would turn into a willy waving contest with certain people. Never mind.

 

Given that even with a calibrated fluke the voltage drop at full load is negligible with my system and in reality never given any problems in real life on any of the boats I’ve wired I’ll continue doing it my way and as I said others can do how they wish. 

Edited August 30, 2020 by frangar

[nicknorman]

1 hour ago, frangar said:

Ahhh. How did I know this would turn into a willy waving contest with certain people. Never mind.

 

Given that even with a calibrated fluke the voltage drop at full load is negligible with my system and in reality never given any problems in real life on any of the boats I’ve wired I’ll continue doing it my way and as I said others can do how they wish. 

At least I have a willy, not just a rolled up sock. Anyway your answer is so typical of the “Ive always done it this way and I’m too old to change regardless of any evidence” brigade. “Negligible” not defined, current not defined, and no answer to any of my other points. I have no problem with you doing what you like, installing it not in accordance with the installation instructions, it’s just that I’d hate it if anyone else was sucked into your world of illogic.

[frangar]

18 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

At least I have a willy, not just a rolled up sock. Anyway your answer is so typical of the “Ive always done it this way and I’m too old to change regardless of any evidence” brigade. “Negligible” not defined, current not defined, and no answer to any of my other points. I have no problem with you doing what you like, installing it not in accordance with the installation instructions, it’s just that I’d hate it if anyone else was sucked into your world of illogic.

So if using a mastervolt masterconnect system including the shunt & dc distribution system you wouldn’t fit any isolators? Even though all loads go through the system and that is indeed how it’s designed to operate?
 

Of course the shunt adds a voltage drop and as you seem paranoid about even small amounts I hope you’ve no current shunts in the system you have. Or do you rely on inductive units and put up with inaccuracies at low current? 

[nicknorman]

3 minutes ago, frangar said:

So if using a mastervolt masterconnect system including the shunt & dc distribution system you wouldn’t fit any isolators? Even though all loads go through the system and that is indeed how it’s designed to operate?
 

Of course the shunt adds a voltage drop and as you seem paranoid about even small amounts I hope you’ve no current shunts in the system you have. Or do you rely on inductive units and put up with inaccuracies at low current? 

I’m not sure what a “masterconnect system” is, neither is google. We do have a Mastershunt which has a shunt(!) and so drops a maximum of 75mV at 500A, but that is serving a purpose ie a battery monitor. Yes of course there is an isolator for the domestic services fitted after the Mastershunt, apart from anything else it’s required by the BSS and the ISO. But the Combi and the Mastershunt are connected direct to the batteries (via a fuse in the case of the combi) as they are supposed to be.

[nicknorman]

8 hours ago, blackrose said:

These Victron combis are well built and sophisticated bits of kit, but unfortunately they're just far too sensitive for use on boats. In my opinion anyway. 

 

A few years ago i helped a friend in a marina to remove his Victron after it stopped working. It wouldn't provide power direct from the mains.

 

It was checked by Victron and found to be fine and in the end I found that the cause was that the voltage in the marina was a bit high so the Victron had cut out. All the while the sterling battery charger in my boat was working fine. I don't like combis. When a combi fails you lose everything. I'd much rather have a separate charger and inverter. Victrons have some nice features but their kit isn't robust enough for marine use.

Yes Combis do have a shut-off for too high or low voltage, but I think that’s a good thing. You don’t want a very high voltage coming into your boat and overloading appliances. Remember power is a function of voltage squared so a relatively small increase in voltage creates a much bigger increase in power for any resistive load, risk of overheating etc.

 

Marina supplies should be within the legally specified range, the Combi’s range is quite a bit wider so if it is tripping on over voltage, the supply is way outside what it should be.

 

I just checked, Mastervolt max input voltage 265v, Victron 265 adjustable up to 270. In the U.K., maximum permitted supply voltage is 253.

Edited August 30, 2020 by nicknorman

[frangar]

12 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I’m not sure what a “masterconnect system” is, neither is google. We do have a Mastershunt which has a shunt(!) and so drops a maximum of 75mV at 500A, but that is serving a purpose ie a battery monitor. Yes of course there is an isolator for the domestic services fitted after the Mastershunt, apart from anything else it’s required by the BSS and the ISO. But the Combi and the Mastershunt are connected direct to the batteries (via a fuse in the case of the combi) as they are supposed to be.

Masterconnect is/was the system name that has been used. The particular item is a DC distribution 500 fused high current distribution block that connects directly via solid links to the mastershunt. It also connects to the master view displays.  
 

https://www.mastervolt.com/products/masterbus-network-components/dc-distribution-500-4industrial-fuses/

If you are happy with your way then fine. I’m happy with mine as are various surveyors etc who have inspected my systems over the years. 

 

[WotEver]

12 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

In the U.K., maximum permitted supply voltage is 253

Yes, 230V -6%, +10%, so if in @blackrosecase it was in excess of 265V it wasn’t ‘a bit’ high, it was considerably out of spec. 

[nicknorman]

3 minutes ago, frangar said:

Masterconnect is/was the system name that has been used. The particular item is a DC distribution 500 fused high current distribution block that connects directly via solid links to the mastershunt. It also connects to the master view displays.  
 

https://www.mastervolt.com/products/masterbus-network-components/dc-distribution-500-4industrial-fuses/

If you are happy with your way then fine. I’m happy with mine as are various surveyors etc who have inspected my systems over the years. 

 

No we don’t have the DC500 thingy, I didn’t see the point of it, we have the Empirbus system for DC distribution and control.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

33 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Yes, 230V -6%, +10%, so if in @blackrosecase it was in excess of 265V it wasn’t ‘a bit’ high, it was considerably out of spec. 

We had a similar problem at our marina for years. Very high mains voltages, pushing, or outside the spec. Some people moving here had problems resulting from it. Victron kit seemed especially likely to throw a tantrum when fed so many volts at once, though mine seemed happy enough. Eventually, after many complaints and much evidence gathering, we managed to get the grid transformer  up a pole that supplied the marina checked. First go, they tried adjusting it downwards. Second go, they replaced it with a new shiny one. All OK now.

Jen

[WotEver]

2 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

We had a similar problem at our marina for years. Very high mains voltages, pushing, or outside the spec. Some people moving here had problems resulting from it. Victron kit seemed especially likely to throw a tantrum when fed so many volts at once, though mine seemed happy enough. Eventually, after many complaints and much evidence gathering, we managed to get the grid transformer  up a pole that supplied the marina checked. First go, they tried adjusting it downwards. Second go, they replaced it with a new shiny one. All OK now.

Jen

They recently replaced the ‘transformer-up-a-pole’ at the farm where our business is based. I was well impressed with the huge Genny that they used as a temporary supply while they did the work. 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

10 minutes ago, WotEver said:

They recently replaced the ‘transformer-up-a-pole’ at the farm where our business is based. I was well impressed with the huge Genny that they used as a temporary supply while they did the work. 

Yes, similar thing here. They came with a big generator set to keep the place going while they worked. It isn't just the boats, which can mostly run on batteries when required, but the facilities block, the boat club building and a pair of houses that are supplied from the transformer.