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BrandyMark

Removing Kelvin K2 exhaust manifold

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My first time working on my K2 and no workshop manuals available! so could do with some guidance. I am in the progress of removing the water cooled exhaust manifold so need access to the top securing nuts. I have removed the rocker cover and I now need to remove the base the covers sit on (see arrow on pic) to get to the manifold nuts. I am assuming this can be done without removing the heads completely? There are two nuts under the rocker arm with virtually no clearance to get a socket in! Do I need to remove these nuts? Do I need to get a socket turned down in a machine shop to do this or is there another way? Next job will be to remove the rocker arm - is there any thing I should watch out for and/or check? Will I need to remove valve springs? and would it be worth taking the heads off for inspection even if it turns out they do not need to be removed? Hopefully someone will have done this job before - any advice welcome.

 

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Parts diagram at  http://www.sky-net.org.uk/kelvin/diesel/k_range/k_parts_list/index.html  also the instruction book and installation instructions.  There is no other Kelvin documentation, though Kevin Whittle may have written something.

 

From where you are  in the pics:

 

Remove  the rockers first, by undoing the two nuts between the rockers. You can see these in pic 3 .  The rockers and their pivot will now come off in one.    Lift out the pushrods and note which hole they come from.

 After that, the rocker plate and the rocker pivot suport block will then all go upwards together.   You might need to insert a thin blade where the arrow is on your first pic   and work if round.  A sharpened machins hacksaw  blade is useful.   The  push rod tubes may remain behind on the tappet holders or may come up with the rocker plate.  Catch them, as they ought to go back in the same place they came from.

The valves will stay put but the oil in the rocker plate round the valve stems and head nuts will run everywhere.  You will now be able to see the whole of the cylinder head nut in pic 2, but it does not need to be disturbed to remove the manifold

 

Do both cylinder tops like this.

 

You will now be able to get at the manifold nuts, which are/were behind the pushrod tubes.   There is no need to disturb the head nuts at all.

 

With the exhaust off have a look in the valve ports.  If they are well carboned up a decoke is indicated, which is a head off job.  Otherwise if it runs OK leave well alone.

 

Reassembly  is the reverse of dismantling, but you will need new gaskets.  Cut them from oil resistant gasket paper.  Fiddling the push rod tubes back into place can be a hassle. Put the push rods back in their original holes. Don't forget to reset the valve clearances before you put on the rocker covers and inlet manifolds. 

 

Any more queries HTH.

N

 

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Brilliant, Just what I needed, will hopefully finish getting the manifold off tomorrow. Thankyou.

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Water cooled exhaust manifolds are virtually unobtainable (most destroyed by saltwater) so I can understand why a lot of Kelvins are retrofitted without them also, maybe if the engines were originally used in shore side application such as for powering compressors on fog horns etc. they were fitted with dry exhaust. I wanted to maintain a water cooled exhaust on my  boat so I can use the hot water to faster warn up the engine when recirculated and, I can direct the water flow to heat up to a large header tank, from which water is pumped around rads and calorifier as required. I also have the Webasto linked into the same system so I can preheat the K2 during winter. Although the heat generated by the K2 is not anywhere near a modern engine it all helps heat the boat.

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For those interested, I could not buy, beg, steal or borrow an original cast manifold replacement so I'm fitting a fabricated mild steel manifold as per picture:

 

 

New Exhaust Manifold02.JPG

  • Greenie 1

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5 hours ago, BrandyMark said:

For those interested, I could not buy, beg, steal or borrow an original cast manifold replacement so I'm fitting a fabricated mild steel manifold as per picture:

 

 

New Exhaust Manifold02.JPG

Looking good.  Are you quite sure you couldn't borrow one?!

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8 hours ago, BrandyMark said:

For those interested, I could not buy, beg, steal or borrow an original cast manifold replacement so I'm fitting a fabricated mild steel manifold as per picture:

 

 

New Exhaust Manifold02.JPG

 

Yes very smart and tidy. May I ask why it has four water connections?

 

I'm sure the answer will be obvious but I don't have a water cooled manifold on either of my Kelvins and my Gleniffer manifold has two water connections. 

 

Thanks!

 

 

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Lovely job.  Bet that took longer than an afternoon.

 

The original has 3 water connections:

Inlet from the by pass; inlet from the cylinder heads and an outlet.  First two on the bottom and the outlet on top.  The head inlet is at the front of the main manifold body and the bypass inlet and the outlet are on the front end cap.

 

Thinking of rebuild, if you need copper sandwich exhaust gaskets the guy at Gaskets to Go is really good.  Made me some great ones for my J2.   See his website for details.  No connection to me except as a customer.

 

N

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, noddyboater said:

Looking good.  Are you quite sure you couldn't borrow one?!

I stand corrected! I did borrow one to use as a pattern for the replacement to be fabricated. Thanks for your help noddyboater,

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5 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

I'm fitting a fabricated mild steel manifold as per picture:

Beautifully fabricated on board  by the Reverie Canal Trading company with whom I have no connection other than being a very satisfied customer. Regards, HughC.

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5 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Yes very smart and tidy. May I ask why it has four water connections?

 

I'm sure the answer will be obvious but I don't have a water cooled manifold on either of my Kelvins and my Gleniffer manifold has two water connections. 

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

3 hours ago, BEngo said:

Lovely job.  Bet that took longer than an afternoon.

 

The original has 3 water connections:

Inlet from the by pass; inlet from the cylinder heads and an outlet.  First two on the bottom and the outlet on top.  The head inlet is at the front of the main manifold body and the bypass inlet and the outlet are on the front end cap.

 

Thinking of rebuild, if you need copper sandwich exhaust gaskets the guy at Gaskets to Go is really good.  Made me some great ones for my J2.   See his website for details.  No connection to me except as a customer.

 

N

 

 

 

 

The bottom left will be the inlet from the cylinder head as per the original. The water flows to the far end and back (under and over the exhaust) to the top outlet to header tank. The pipework to the header tank will have a tee to re-circulate back to the K2 water pump outlet via gate valve - this is how I control the K2 running temperature. As stated by BEngo, on the original Kelvin manifold, the re-circulating outlet was built into the manifold end cap. The two outlet on the other end (gearbox end), the bottom fitting will have a temperature sensor/alarm - a bit over the top for a K2 but the control panel as a temperature gauge fitted so I wanted to make use of it and I like the idea of an audible alarm I can hear from the helm (engine control panel is in engine room). And finally, I have a nice brass sika temperature gauge which I will fit into the remaining top outlet which will allow me a quick visual check engine temp as well as looking good.

 

The exhaust was fabricated by Dan at www.reveriecanaltradingco.co.uk who has a fabricating workshop on a narrowboat. I have no connection but I do like to support canal boat traders and can testify to the very high standard of work he produces.

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One more thought.  If I am teaching granny about egg sucking, sorry.

 

Though you have not disturbed the heads, worth checking with straight edges that the two cylinder head manifold mounting faces are in line and not in winding.  (Both in the same plane).  Normally one would either bolt the manifold to the heads and so line everything up, then bolt the heads down, or you would refit the original manifold,  which was lined up previously, to undisturbed heads. You have a new manifold on fixed heads so any misalignment would cause stress somewhere. 

N

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41 minutes ago, hughc said:

Beautifully fabricated on board  by the Reverie Canal Trading company with whom I have no connection other than being a very satisfied customer. Regards, HughC.

For those that have not met them, Reverie are roving traders on a pair of boats (modern motor? historic butty). They make mostly "arty" stuff to sell but have a serious engineering background.

 

...........Dave   (Another satisfied and impressed customer).

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I'm not familiar with this engine, but is there a reason why the manifold fixings are under the rocker assembly rather than the manifold simply being bolted to the side of the cylinder heads as on other engines?

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The manifold is  just fastened to the cylinder head with studs and nuts.  However, the push rod tubes run upward,  directly behind the manifold fixings and either side of the exhaust branch itself. So even if you have a special curved and bent spanner to get at the manifold nuts, the manifold flanges will not pass the push rod tubes.  So the valve gear has to come off to remove the push rod tubes.

 

Why is it like that?  Because, and that is the way Mr Walter Bergius designed it.  It may have been to discourage inexpert Scottish fishermen from meddling with the company's first diesel, it may have been to make work for his service department,  it may even have been because the end product is a neat and effective package (by 1930's standards) and it allowed him to put on the engine even more things that could be polished.  The part count is high by modern standards, but there are few complicated castings or difficult machining, standfast the cylinder heads and the (bought in) injection gear  so the engines were relatively easy to make.

Both Walter and George Bergius have gone so we will never know.

 

N

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1 hour ago, BEngo said:

The manifold is  just fastened to the cylinder head with studs and nuts.  However, the push rod tubes run upward,  directly behind the manifold fixings and either side of the exhaust branch itself. So even if you have a special curved and bent spanner to get at the manifold nuts, the manifold flanges will not pass the push rod tubes.  So the valve gear has to come off to remove the push rod tubes.

 

Why is it like that?  Because, and that is the way Mr Walter Bergius designed it.  It may have been to discourage inexpert Scottish fishermen from meddling with the company's first diesel, it may have been to make work for his service department,  it may even have been because the end product is a neat and effective package (by 1930's standards) and it allowed him to put on the engine even more things that could be polished.  The part count is high by modern standards, but there are few complicated castings or difficult machining, standfast the cylinder heads and the (bought in) injection gear  so the engines were relatively easy to make.

Both Walter and George Bergius have gone so we will never know.

 

N

If you look at the start of this video of my "very dusty" K2, you will see what BEngo is referring to.

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9 hours ago, dmr said:

For those that have not met them, Reverie are roving traders on a pair of boats (modern motor? historic butty). They make mostly "arty" stuff to sell but have a serious engineering background.

 

...........Dave   (Another satisfied and impressed customer).

They run on the modern motor Harrier and small Northwich butty Lyra. They do really good work, I am another satisfied customer, they cut a load of 12th scale model parts for my project boat I am working on. 

 

Their website can be found here...

 

https://www.reveriecanaltradingco.co.uk/

 

They also have a facebook page, Instagram feed and you tube channel for those inclined.

I have no hesitation in recommending them for any fabrication works required.

 

Kind regards 

 

Dan

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Work progressing. Offered up the new manifold and found I will have to adjust the position of the stern cylinder a fraction to line up the manifold (as per BEngo advice). Having trouble with the back two head nuts, they are to close to the petrol compression chamber to fit a socket on, will have to find a open ended spanner and give it another go tomorrow.

Spent Saturday night making gaskets ready for top end rebuild - the exciting life of a vintage engine owner! love it.

 

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Very nice gasket cutting, its never quite as easy as it looks.

 

.................Dave

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It is quicker to tap the gaskets out with a small ball-pein hammer.

 

Don't forget there is a seventh  cylinder head securing nut underneath the head on the right hand side behind the injector.  The stud points downwards!

N

 

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14 hours ago, BEngo said:

It is quicker to tap the gaskets out with a small ball-pein hammer.

 

Don't forget there is a seventh  cylinder head securing nut underneath the head on the right hand side behind the injector.  The stud points downwards!

N

 

Yes I do tap out gaskets sometimes!

 

Thanks for letting me know about the "seventh nut", there is a good chance I would have missed it!

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48 minutes ago, BrandyMark said:

 

Thanks for letting me know about the "seventh nut", there is a good chance I would have missed it!

 

On reflection there's no way you would have missed it, Shirley. Them heads would have just, like, stayed down!!

 

 

 

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The under head nut has caught a few folks out.  As MtB says, you cannot shift the head with it fastened, but its existence is counter intuitive to many mechanics, good and not so good,   and much time has been wasted looking for another fastener on top. 

I was lucky enough to have started with a disassembled engine, when the extra stud sticks out like a sore thumb.

 

N

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