private mooring fees?

[TheBiscuits]

18 minutes ago, Higgs said:

You're willing to accept that a marina has to expel a boat from a marina, before having no licence becomes an issue in law. ??

What's your take on BSS and insurance in or out of a marina?

[mayalld]

19 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

You're willing to accept that a marina has to expel a boat from a marina, before having no licence becomes an issue in law. ??

 

I consider it a matter of no consequence.

 

But whilst the boat remains in the marina, it is a matter of Contract Law.

 

It is all very well spouting about more power to the boater's elbow, but that is meaningless, because the consequences for him are the same come what may.

[Arthur Marshall]

53 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

More power to the boaters' elbow.

It's about as enforceable as someone pushing your SORN car onto the public highway, and claiming you're breaking the law.

It's still enforceable though, surely (as, no doubt, if someone pushed your SORN car onto the road, so would that. The liability would be the owners).  Enforced by the marina on the boater, and by CRT threatening to withhold the licence to the marina if they don't include it in their T&Cs.  The logic is that generally speaking, people with boats go boating, or, at least, they have the ability to do so should they choose and CRT can't afford to check every time a non-compliant boater would nip out of the marina for a day or two. Which they mostly would (present company excepted).  It may not be fair on those who only stay in the marina, but much of life isn't particularly fair - if you park your car on the road, but only actually drive it once every six months because otherwise you find it more convenient to take the bus, you still have to tax/MOT/insure the thing because the potential for use is there.

I presume a marina would also insist that a non-moving boat have insurance as well - 3rd party would do even though if the boat never moved it would be pointless.

[David Mack]

I suspect many marinas like the fact that all craft have to be licenced. It means that the boats are also insured and have a BSC. Which provides some assurance that boats are less likely to pose risks to other boats in the marina or to marina infrastructure.

[Higgs]

31 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

What's your take on BSS and insurance in or out of a marina?

 

Support it, all the way.

 

 

[Higgs]

30 minutes ago, mayalld said:

I consider it a matter of no consequence.

 

But whilst the boat remains in the marina, it is a matter of Contract Law.

 

It is all very well spouting about more power to the boater's elbow, but that is meaningless, because the consequences for him are the same come what may.

 

I think some contracts can be questioned, as too, and is done frequently, people question how much of the terms and conditions that CRT draw up would actually survive legal scrutiny.  

 

If I thought it was meaningless, believe me, I wouldn't be doing it for my health.

 

 

 

[TheBiscuits]

3 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

Support it, all the way.

 

 

My insurance (Craftinsure / Zurich) has the clause:

 

You possess a current Canal & River Trust or Environment Agency Licence, or the equivalent Licence from the local Navigation Authority as appropriate, and a current Boat Safety Certificate

 

With no licence, I am not insured.

[Higgs]

14 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

It's still enforceable though, surely (as, no doubt, if someone pushed your SORN car onto the road, so would that. The liability would be the owners). 

 

I would not encourage you to create a legal problem for someone. I'm not sure that I'd find you innocent.

 

 

 

[john6767]

1 hour ago, Higgs said:

 

CRT licence checkers may indeed visit the marina. This practice is to check up on the marina's adherence to the contract. For the most part.

 

 

 

I does not matter though, in practice the marina will not let you moor there unless you have a licence, and if it expired then the licence checkers would find that out, and presumably inform the marina operator who would throw you out for breach of their terms.  What ever way unless it is one of the special case marinas, you need to have a licence on the boat when it is in the marina.

[Higgs]

1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

My insurance (Craftinsure / Zurich) has the clause:

 

You possess a current Canal & River Trust or Environment Agency Licence, or the equivalent Licence from the local Navigation Authority as appropriate, and a current Boat Safety Certificate

 

With no licence, I am not insured.

 

Within the confines of a marina, there is no 'appropriate' licence. They my as well ask you for an 'appropriate' driving licence.

 

 

[john6767]

9 minutes ago, David Mack said:

I suspect many marinas like the fact that all craft have to be licenced. It means that the boats are also insured and have a BSC. Which provides some assurance that boats are less likely to pose risks to other boats in the marina or to marina infrastructure.

I know marinas will be different but I have to provide the insurance certificate and BSC to the marina, they keep track of when those run out. I don’t think they actually keep track of the CRT licence though.  Similar with short term moorings in marinas that I have had, although I can think of a few that did not ask for anything, and others that want the emails for licence, BSC and insurance before they would accept a booking.

[Higgs]

28 minutes ago, john6767 said:

I does not matter though, in practice the marina will not let you moor there unless you have a licence, and if it expired then the licence checkers would find that out, and presumably inform the marina operator who would throw you out for breach of their terms.  What ever way unless it is one of the special case marinas, you need to have a licence on the boat when it is in the marina.

 

It is true, the marina will not let you moor, without a licence. What, in the marina, does the licence do for you, apart from helping one business to help another business, and in turn, it allows itself to have a business.

 

Your boat licence is only an enabling device in the marina, for the marina. The licence itself carries no other meaning, in the marina.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 11, 2020 by Higgs

[Jim Riley]

56 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

Within the confines of a marina, there is no 'appropriate' licence. They my as well ask you for an 'appropriate' driving licence.

 

 

Of course there is, one that appropriately satisfies the terms of your mooring contract with the marina. Try showing them your TV licence, you may find that one isn't appropriate. 

[cuthound]

1 hour ago, Higgs said:

 

I think some contracts can be questioned, as too, and is done frequently, people question how much of the terms and conditions that CRT draw up would actually survive legal scrutiny.  

 

If I thought it was meaningless, believe me, I wouldn't be doing it for my health.

 

 

 

 

Indeed they can under the Unfair Contract terms Act 1977.

 

The fact that no one has legally challenged CRT on this suggests that no one, other than you, considers it unfair, or if they do that it is at worst only a minor irritstion to them.

[Higgs]

26 minutes ago, Jim Riley said:

Of course there is, one that appropriately satisfies the terms of your mooring contract with the marina. Try showing them your TV licence, you may find that one isn't appropriate. 

 

It is not appropriate within the law governing that licence. Why is it the marina's T&Cs don't demand a TV licence, and do the same job for the BBC. A TV, on a boat, in a marina. The marina doesn't need the BBC, that's why. More to the point, if the marina demanded you had a TV licence, even if you never used one or intend to.

 

 

 

[tree monkey]

1 minute ago, Higgs said:

 

It is not appropriate within the law governing that licence. Why is it the marina's T&Cs don't demand a TV licence, and do the same job for the BBC. A TV, on a boat, in a marina. The marina doesn't need the BBC, that's why. More to the point, if the marina demanded you had a TV licence, even if you never used one or intend to.

 

 

 

That's the important bit the marina does need CRT

[Jim Riley]

Oi! Iggsy, on the back row... Do keep up lad! It's not "the law", it's "the contract". The law applies when you break the contract. 

The beeb have no contract with the marina mandating a TV licence. 

 

 

Edited March 11, 2020 by Jim Riley

[Higgs]

2 minutes ago, tree monkey said:

That's the important bit the marina does need CRT

 

Yes, but I don't need a licence in it. And what law does apply to the licence.

 

 

[TheBiscuits]

7 minutes ago, Higgs said:

More to the point, if the marina demanded you had a TV licence, even if you never used one or intend to.

But if there were other marinas that did not demand this strange example, you would have a choice of where to moor.

 

Much the same as with your crusade against CRT licences on boats in marinas - there are plenty of other options available if people do not think they should be forced to have CRT licences.

 

 

Edited March 11, 2020 by TheBiscuits
spellink

[Higgs]

2 minutes ago, Jim Riley said:

Oi! Iggsy, on the back row... Do keep up lad, it's not "the law", it's "the contract". The law applies when you break the contract. 

 

 

 

Yes, Jimbo, it isn't CRT law. CRT doesn't apply in the marina.

 

 

 

 

[Jim Riley]

2 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

Yes, but I don't need a licence in it. And what law does apply to the licence.

 

 

Yawn! I'm bored now, as, obviously, are you. Go boating, that'll cure you. Or are you in a no licence marina with no licence? 

[Arthur Marshall]

It's obviously simpler and therefore cheaper for the marina to have a catch-all policy and as I would presume that Higgs, who never leaves the marina, is in a pretty small minority of boat owners, he and the few others like him get caught.

If CRT ever accepts a role as a housing authority, presumably that would change. Until then, the presumption by CRT, marinas and the law is that boats are made to move and should be licenced to do so and it is then down to the owner to choose to or not. There are plenty who spend most of their life unmoving simply because the owners have more or less forgotten them. It may not be fair, but fairness has nothing to do with the law.

[Higgs]

29 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

But if there were other marinas that did not demand this strange example, you would have a choice of where to moor.

 

Much the same as with your crusade against CRT licences on boats in marinas - there are plenty of other options available if people do not think they should be forced to have CRT licences.

 

 

 

I always point out, if I hadn't got a boat, it would change nothing. I guess you'd approve of car VED requirements being extended up the private driveway, as a good idea to raise cash, because that's all licencing in marina is the equivalent of.  

 

 

 

26 minutes ago, Jim Riley said:

Yawn! I'm bored now, as, obviously, are you. Go boating, that'll cure you. Or are you in a no licence marina with no licence? 

 

Sorry, if it too taxing.

 

 

21 minutes ago, Arthur Marshall said:

It's obviously simpler and therefore cheaper for the marina to have a catch-all policy and as I would presume that Higgs, who never leaves the marina, is in a pretty small minority of boat owners, he and the few others like him get caught.

If CRT ever accepts a role as a housing authority, presumably that would change. Until then, the presumption by CRT, marinas and the law is that boats are made to move and should be licenced to do so and it is then down to the owner to choose to or not. There are plenty who spend most of their life unmoving simply because the owners have more or less forgotten them. It may not be fair, but fairness has nothing to do with the law.

 

I am fully legal. So, you can get off your pompous high horse quick. That being said, it is not your busy how anyone uses their boat, unless you wish to buy them, to have that privilege. And, as things are as they stand, people who do not use their boats are not freeloaders. 

 

 

Edited March 11, 2020 by Higgs

[TheBiscuits]

10 minutes ago, Higgs said:

I always point out, if I hadn't got a boat, it would change nothing. I guess you'd approve of car VED requirements being extended up the private driveway, as a good idea to raise cash, because that's all licencing in marina is the equivalent of.

What a good idea.  Yes I approve, because the driveway is connected to the public highway.

 

Helpfully, this would reduce the stress caused to the registered keeper when some random stranger decides to push the car onto the road one night ...

[Jim Riley]

17 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

I always point out, if I hadn't got a boat, it would change nothing. I guess you'd approve of car VED requirements being extended up the private driveway, as a good idea to raise cash, because that's all licencing in marina is the equivalent of.  

 

 

 

 

Sorry, if it too taxing.

 

 

 

I am fully legal. So, you can get off your pompous high horse quick.

 

 

If my landlord had a contract with dvla then passed on the terms in the rent agreement then I'd either go elsewhere or just have to swallow it. Constantly whining and whinging would make diddley squat of a difference to owt! Apart from annoying my mates. ????

 

PS, if you just want a proper argument, the full 10 minutes, robust debate, I suggest you go over the the other channel. Mincemeat comes to mind. Way too polite with you here. ??????

Edited March 11, 2020 by Jim Riley