Spray foam or cavity injection.

[RubyTuesday]

Hi everyone,

I have been looking at spray foam and I think that it has the possibility of being a royal pain in the backside and really rather inefficient use of space if you never really get the full use of the cavity.

 

I was thinking that originally the system was designed for injecting foam into wall cavities, this would then fill the entire cavity and you wouldn't have to faff about with trimming back overspill and you wouldn't have the wasted space where the insulation should be.

 

Has anyone had any direct experience of this method on a boat?

 

All the best,

Chris

[GUMPY]

Unless you get it exactly right you will need to catch the panels aas they pop off the walls

[Chalky]

This one has been posted before but it seems relevant...

 

On the Subject of the Expanding Foam
A friend of mine once built a canoe. He spent a long time
on it and it was a work of art.Almost the final phase was to fill both ends with polyurethane
expanding foam.He duly ordered the bits from Mr Glasplies (an excellent
purveyor of all things fibreglass) and it arrived in two
packs covered with appropriately dire warnings about expansion
ratios and some very good notes on how to use it.Unfortunately he had a degree, worse still two of them. One
was in Chemistry, so the instructions got thrown away and the
other in something mathematical because in a few minutes he
was merrily calculating the volume of his craft to many
decimal places and the guidelines got binned as well.He propped the canoe up on one end, got a huge tin,
carefully measured the calculated amounts of glop, mixed
them and quickly poured the mixture in the end of the canoe
(The two pack expands very rapidly). I arrived as he was completing this and I looked in to
see the end chamber over half full of something Cawdors
Witches would have been proud of. Two thing occurred to me,
one was the label which said in big letters:
"Caution - expansion ration 50:1" (or something similar)
and the other that the now empty tins said "approximately
enough for 20 small craft"Any comment was drowned out by a sea of yellow brown foam
suddenly pouring out of the middle of the canoe and the
end of the canoe bursting open. My friend screamed and
leapt at his pride and joy which was knocked to the ground
as he started trying to bale handfuls of this stuff out
with his hands.Knocking the craft over allowed the still liquid and not
yet fully expanded foam to flow to the other end of the
canoe where it expanded and shattered that end as well.A few seconds later and we had a canoe with two exploded
ends, a mountain of solid foam about 4ft high growing out
of the middle, and a chemist firmly embedded up to his
armpits in it.At this stage he discovered the reaction was exothermic
and his hands and arms were getting very hot indeed.
Running about in small circles in a confined space while
glued to the remains of a fairly large canoe proved
ineffective so he resorted to screaming a bit instead.Fortunately a Kukri was to hand so I attacked the foam
around his hands with some enthusiasm. The process was
hindered by the noise he was making and the fact he was
trying to escape while still attached to the canoe.Eventually I managed to hack out a lump of foam still
including most of his arms and hands. Unfortunately my
tears of laughter were not helping as they accelerated
the foam setting.Seeking medical help was obviously out of the question,
the embarrassment of having to explain his occupation
(Chief Research Chemist at a major petrochemical
organisation) would simply never have been lived down.
Several hours and much acrimony later we had removed
sufficient foam (and much hair) to allow him to move
again. However he still looked something like a failed
audition for Quasimodo with red burns on his arms and
expanded blobs of foam sticking everywhere. My comment
that the scalding simple made the hairs the foam was
sticking to come out easier was not met with the
enthusiasm I felt it deserved.I forgot to add that in retrospect rather unwisely he had
set out to do this deed in the hallway of his house (the
only place he later explained with sufficient headroom
for the canoe - achieved by poking it up the stairwell.Having extricated him we now were faced with the problem
of a canoe construction kit embedded in a still gurgling
block of foam which was now irrevocably bonded to the hall
and stairs carpet as well as several banister rails and
quite a lot of wallpaper.At this point his wife and her mother came back from
shopping......Oh yes - and he had been wearing the pullover Mum in law
had knitted him for his birthday the week before.

[blackrose]

Hi everyone,

I have been looking at spray foam and I think that it has the possibility of being a royal pain in the backside and really rather inefficient use of space if you never really get the full use of the cavity.

 

I was thinking that originally the system was designed for injecting foam into wall cavities, this would then fill the entire cavity and you wouldn't have to faff about with trimming back overspill and you wouldn't have the wasted space where the insulation should be.

 

Has anyone had any direct experience of this method on a boat?

 

All the best,

Chris

 

I've done it on 2 boats but it isn't easy and as Julian says, if you get it wrong you can rip your lining off the walls.

 

The only circumstances that one should even consider injecting foam into the cavities on a boat is if the lining is already in place and removing it would be too difficult or destructive. If the lining isn't in yet then sprayfoam the shell and if you're not satisfied fill the cavites with rockwool.

 

If you really want to inject sprayfoam then I think I've written some detailed descriptions which will be somewhere in the archives. Or PM me and I will give you my number and we can have a chat.

Edited November 16, 2013 by blackrose

[RubyTuesday]

Right well it's not going to be a DIY job, I will be getting a professional to do the job.

 

My concern is that if you spray you can form a more complete sealed layer but with injection you are hopping that it will cover all the areas. I can build in vents behind where the coving will go so that there is always somewhere for the foam to expand out of.

[GUMPY]

Doing it the normal way there is no reason for any voids.

You get the foam put on to the depth of the battens, you will be able to get the foam into any odd angles and corners with ease. Then cut back where its proud and then there will only be a 1or2mm gap between the foam and the linings.

Ask yourself this how are you going to fill all the nooks and crannies in the steelwork if you can't see them, the foam wont just expand into them.

[blackrose]

Right well it's not going to be a DIY job, I will be getting a professional to do the job.

 

My concern is that if you spray you can form a more complete sealed layer but with injection you are hopping that it will cover all the areas. I can build in vents behind where the coving will go so that there is always somewhere for the foam to expand out of.

 

That won't work I'm afraid. Foam doesn't necessarily expand in the way you wish it too. It prefers to expand spherically so although the foam near your vent will expand out of the vent, the pressure from the foam which is 2ft away won't be relieved by the vent. It will be relieved elsewhere and if that means bulging or even ripping the ling off the walls then that's what it will do. It only works in brick cavity walls because the bricks are stronger than the foam and the foam is forced to follow the cavity. However, with thin ply walls held on by screws or panel pins, the expansion of the foam is far stronger than the strength of the panels!

 

Is your lining already fitted or not? If not you'd be making the wrong choice if you inject. Plus the fact that you're very unlikely to find any professsional tradespeople who would be willing to do this because it's not a professional way to do it.

 

Edit: If you don't want to use sprayfoam then use Cellotex or Kingspan PU boards bonded to the steel with Marinefex and then use handheld cans of foam to fill in any gaps before taping over all joints with aluminium tape. A professional should be able to do that job.

 

Available in different thicknesses: http://www.building-supplies-online.co.uk/celotex-tb4000-insulation-board-3680-p.asp

Edited November 16, 2013 by blackrose

[DHutch]

This one has been posted before but it seems relevant...

 

On the Subject of the Expanding Foam

....so the instructions got thrown away...

"Caution - expansion ration 50:1" ...at this stage he discovered the reaction was exothermic/

...I forgot to add that he had set out to do this deed in the hallway of his house

....block of foam which was now irrevocably bonded to the hall and stairs carpet as well as several banister rails

...t this point his wife and her mother came back from shopping......

Oh yes - and he had been wearing the pullover Mum in law

had knitted him for his birthday the week before.

 

I like that!

[Ex- Member]

I've done it on 2 boats but it isn't easy and as Julian says, if you get it wrong you can rip your lining off the walls.

 

 

Well not much of anything is easy if you get it wrong You simply drill appropriate holes in the right place. Simples

[Ex- Member]

Hi everyone,

I have been looking at spray foam and I think that it has the possibility of being a royal pain in the backside and really rather inefficient use of space if you never really get the full use of the cavity.

 

I was thinking that originally the system was designed for injecting foam into wall cavities, this would then fill the entire cavity and you wouldn't have to faff about with trimming back overspill and you wouldn't have the wasted space where the insulation should be.

 

Has anyone had any direct experience of this method on a boat?

 

All the best,

Chris

 

I would apply spray foam before new panelling, the only times I've suggested doing cavities is in older boats where the owner cant afford to rip out linings and or remove linings with cavities. I've seen it done a few times and have myself helped someone to do it. Never had a problem with linings being forced of walls, clearly some people who haven't a clue what they're doing might have such problems.

 

The main reason to spray foam first is a boat is very sectional with lots of small cavity areas between ribbing, you'll not guarantee complete filling unless you drill lots of holes in the new panelling, especially corners.

 

Also it's a good idea to spray foam inside the ribbing before spray foam by drilling 10mm holes about every 300mm or f/t as you fill one hole, wait a minuet and it will appear from the next. This stops condensation forming in the tube. Using aerosol tins for this is easy.

 

If you get a spray foam company in, Just ensure you get 50mm if you have room for it, you have to allow for some tolerance about 5mm would be acceptable as a good sprayer should be able to achieve this ball park level with batten surface. A nice big old fashion saw blade with the handle removed and a 2x1 wood batten fitted to one edge of the blades blunt edge is the best tool I've seen yet for trimming spray foam as it's length easily spans the battens. Taping battens first with Brown shiny packing tape is also o good idea too.

[blackrose]

ave

Well not much of anything is easy if you get it wrong You simply drill appropriate holes in the right place. Simples

 

Quite the opposite. It's very easy to get it wrong and not very easy to get it right.

 

It's not simples at all and people come out with that sort of nonsense have obviously never actually done the job on a boat despite what they may tell us..

 

I would apply spray foam before new panelling, the only times I've suggested doing cavities is in older boats where the owner cant afford to rip out linings and or remove linings with cavities. I've seen it done a few times and have myself helped someone to do it. Never had a problem with linings being forced of walls, clearly some people who haven't a clue what they're doing might have such problems.

 

 

So you're saying that Loddon doesn't know what he's talking about either? You really do come out with some nonsense sometimes. I do know what I'm talking about because I've actually done the job by myself on two boats - I haven't just watched or "helped" someone. What did you do - hand him the tools?

 

It's well known that injecting sprayfoam can easily rip wooden linings off walls even if holes are drilled in the appropriate places, because it's very difficult to judge how much you're injecting in and it will expand much faster than it can get out. Also, the foam can begin to cure around the holes but continue to expand within the cavity. If these facts aren't well-known to you then you then perhaps you need to watch your friend do the job again and pay a bit more attention next time.

Edited November 16, 2013 by blackrose

[Ex- Member]

 

Quite the opposite. It's very easy to get it wrong and not very easy to get it right.

 

It's not simples at all and people come out with that sort of nonsense have obviously never actually done the job on a boat.

 

 

Well we built ours on our own from a steel shell including fitting the engine, and I've also worked on many other boats.

 

Earlier it was fitting bottle traps you commented on finding complicated, and now it's filling a cavity with some spray foam.

 

Clearly you for some reason you find these tasks problematic. The fact that you do speaks volumes, I rather think the problem is with your work ethic rather than the so called difficulty of the job in hand.

[blackrose]

 

 

Quite the opposite. It's very easy to get it wrong and not very easy to get it right.

 

It's not simples at all and people come out with that sort of nonsense have obviously never actually done the job on a boat.

 

 

Well we built ours on our own from a steel shell including fitting the engine, and I've also worked on many other boats.

 

Earlier it was fitting bottle traps you commented on finding complicated, and now it's filling a cavity with some spray foam.

 

Clearly you for some reason you find these tasks problematic. The fact that you do speaks volumes, I rather think the problem is with your work ethic rather than the so called difficulty of the job in hand.

 

 

Fitting bottle traps? I think you've got the wrong person.

 

Some people here have got a lot more experience on boats than you (A LOT MORE!), and they also say that injecting sprayfoam into cavities isn't easy, it's not just me.

 

Since you mentioned work ethic, the fact that it took you about 6 years to fit out your boat is what really speaks volumes. (Not build it, just fit it out!).

 

Edit: Quote from the first post of your own build blog "The boat is 10f/t 6” X 60f/t wide beam constructed by R&D Fabrications in Newark in 2004." So you didn't build the boat!

Edited November 16, 2013 by blackrose

[Ex- Member]

 

Fitting bottle traps? I think you've got the wrong person.

 

 

 

The fact that it took you about 6 years to fit out your boat is what really speaks volumes. (Not build it, just fit it out!) Clearly you're not cut out for boats at all.

 

Some people here have got a lot more experience on boats than you (A LOT MORE!), and they also say that injecting sprayfoam into cavities isn't easy, it's not just me.

 

 

Maybe I'm a quick learner, clearly you aren't

 

The fact that it took you about 6 years to fit out your boat is what really speaks volumes. (Not build it, just fit it out!) Clearly you're not cut out for boats at all.

 

Hardly any relevance at all, it's well documented the our boat project was put on hold for several years before completing.

[blackrose]

 

 

Maybe I'm a quick learner, clearly you aren't

 

 

Hardly any relevance at all, it's well documented the our boat project was put on hold for several years before completing.

 

I'm not going to bother to continue trading slurs with you because most people reading this will be able to see for themselves who is right. You don't seem to be able to engage with the fact that it's not just me who is saying the same thing on this thread - you have conveniently ignored that point despite me repeating it several times.

 

If I'm honest about finding certain jobs tricky then it has nothing to do with my work ethic, it's simply because I'm honest! That's what the forum is here for. If you want to take me to task for that then you can **** right off. On some subjects such as this one I do know what I'm talking about and on others I don't and I will ask for advice. I'm afraid that I've never seen that level of honesty from you because you are a know-it-all.

 

And I will say no more on this...

Edited December 8, 2013 by Lady Muck

[Ex- Member]

 

Fitting bottle traps? I think you've got the wrong person.

 

Some people here have got a lot more experience on boats than you (A LOT MORE!), and they also say that injecting sprayfoam into cavities isn't easy, it's not just me.

 

Since you mentioned work ethic, the fact that it took you about 6 years to fit out your boat is what really speaks volumes. (Not build it, just fit it out!).

 

Edit: Quote from the first post of your own build blog "The boat is 10f/t 6” X 60f/t wide beam constructed by R&D Fabrications in Newark in 2004." So you didn't build the boat!

 

From the shell up As you know well

[RubyTuesday]

Ok dip sticks,

I asked a genuine question here, of the areas that experienced advice is actually needed for the work that we are about to carry out on the boat and that I thought this site may be truly useful with people that may have some useful information. All any of you want to do is argue with each other, it's really very sad you know.

 

I have a rule with forums, if I do not have personal experience or a real understanding of what is going on then I keep my mouth shut, if someone provokes then I do not react, at the end of the day, no one gets anywhere and lots of people blood pressure gets pushed far higher than it should.

 

So here are my final thoughts, we are going to get the work done to the boat following the advise of the specific industry experts (for example I am going to gave the bilge of my boat spray foamed, and as has bean mentioned on the forum by those that have had it done and shown that it works or talked about by those that understand that it works and works well and yet people still insist that it won't work.

 

Th constant negativity and lack of ability to adopt new technology is why nothing moves forward, it's really very sad. And I'm not talking about everyone having touch screen computer, I'm just talking about the basics that will keep (what is for many of us) our homes safe and efficient into the future.

 

For example I am trying to find a spray foam installer that uses compounds that are made from recycled or natural and non destructive parts. We want every ounce of energy that goes into the boat to be used as efficiently as possible. I dare not say it but we are looking at having an electric induction hob in our boat.... I'm sure that most here would thing that mad but with 2000W of solar panels and the induction hob ring 40% more efficient than a as hob (even after an inverter and top up from a charger) that is far more efficient than using gas as no one takes into account in their calculations the environmental cost of obtaining the gas in the first place.

 

I give up but I hope that you take interest when we start a blog for the work that will be carried out and how we find living on the boat.

[Ex- Member]

 

I'm not going to bother to continue trading slurs with you because most people reading this will be able to see for themselves who is right. You don't seem to be able to engage with the fact that it's not just me who is saying the same thing on this thread - you have conveniently ignored that point despite me repeating it several times.

 

If I'm honest about finding certain jobs tricky then it has nothing to do with my work ethic, it's simply because I'm honest! That's what the forum is here for. If you want to take me to task for that then

you can ****right off.

 

On some subjects such as this one I do know what I'm talking about and on others I don't and I will ask for advice. I'm afraid that I've never seen that level of honesty from you because you are a know-it-all.

 

And I will say no more on this...

 

DEeeeery oh me You do have issues don't you

 

I've asked numerous questions on here with regard to things I don't know And received some much appreciated and valuable information on fitting out.

 

I do I seem to notice that much of the time you prefer criticizing other peoples boats for no other reason to make yours seem superior. Typically in a recent thread on condensation.

 

I reckon the chip on your shoulder is big enough to fit nicely on your boat

Edited December 8, 2013 by Lady Muck
swearing

[blackrose]

Argue with some injection foam insulation experts if you want. These people say:

 

Polyurethane Foams, both high density and medium density, expand at a very rapid rate [once] dispensed into the wall cavity (often 20-200 times their liquid volume). This expansion can often create damage to existing wall sheathing and interior sheetrock, if not carefully and correctly applied.

 

http://www.injectionfoamcontractor.com/injection-foam-insulation.html

(last paragraph)

 

That is all I was saying. Cavity insulation on boats can certainly be done - I've done it successfully on 2 boats. However, it's not as "simples" as you were suggesting. It has to be done carefully and I was trying to make the OP aware of that. For some reason you then felt the need to imply that I haven't got a clue. I really think your response says more about you than it does about me. I have a PhD in engineering research into the mechanical, thermal and acoustic behaviour of polymer foams.

 

http://bura.brunel.ac.uk/handle/2438/6872

Edited November 17, 2013 by blackrose

[Ex- Member]

Argue with some injection foam insulation experts if you want. These people say:

Polyurethane Foams, both high density and medium density, expand at a very rapid rate [once] dispensed into the wall cavity (often 20-200 times their liquid volume). This expansion can often create damage to existing wall sheathing and interior sheetrock,

if not carefully and correctly applied.

 

 

http://www.injectionfoamcontractor.com/injection-foam-insulation.html

(last paragraph)

 

That is all I was saying. Cavity insulation on boats can certainly be done - I've done it successfully on 2 boats. However, it's not as "simples" as you were suggesting. It has to be done carefully and I was trying to make the OP aware of that.

For some reason you then felt the need to imply that I haven't got a clue.

 

I really think your response says more about you than it does about me. I have a PhD in engineering research into the mechanical, thermal and acoustic behaviour of polymer foams.

 

http://bura.brunel.ac.uk/handle/2438/6872

 

 

Clearly what's simple and straight forward for me, isn't for you You seem to have gone off on one when I stated that drilling holes was SIMPLES! as is injecting foam in to a properly prepared cavity.

 

I really think your response says more about you than it does about me.

 

 

You're the one throwing a hissy fit, not me

[ditchcrawler]

I have lost track who was for and who was against drilling holes and injecting foam

[Ex- Member]

I have lost track who was for and who was against drilling holes and injecting foam

 

Post 10 is my position

[smileypete]

Ok dip sticks,

I asked a genuine question here, of the areas that experienced advice is actually needed for the work that we are about to carry out on the boat and that I thought this site may be truly useful with people that may have some useful information. All any of you want to do is argue with each other, it's really very sad you know.

 

You're not going to get the best response if you address everyone as dipsticks!

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

[Tuscan]

We used spray foam, professionally done before boarding out. Seems to have worked well.

[RubyTuesday]

You're not going to get the best response if you address everyone as dipsticks!

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Sorry Pete, it was only aimed at those individuals that had decided to be a tad silly.. Edited November 20, 2013 by RubyTuesday