Fried Travel Power

[Philippe]

Now this is getting silly. I've managed to completely fry my Domestic Travel Power generator 3 times now just by running the washing machine.

 

Got it repaired the first time and everyone thought it was the fault of the Travel Power unit. Turned on the washing machine and within 10/15 minutes it blew again.

 

Repaired again and the engineer suspected it was a fault in the Victron Filax switch that was causing power to feedback to the Travel Pack. As the Filax didn't appear to be working it was removed and the Travel Power wired directly to the input of my Victron Multiplus 12/2500/120. Turned on washing machine and 10/15 minutes later the Travel Power blew yet again.

 

The Travel Power has now been removed and sent back for repair again.

 

The engineer now thinks it must be a problem with the washing machine, but I can't see this as I can run it purely from the Victron, the only issue being there isn't enough power from the alternator alone and it drains the batteries pretty quickly which is why I want the Travel Power working.

 

I can't understand how anything could keep frying the electronics like this. Why doesn't a fuse blow if there is too much current being drawn? Anyway, how can there be too much current for a 3.5KW generator when a 2.5KW inverter can cope?

 

Anyone have any ideas on what may be happening here? At this rate I could have bought a brand new unit pretty soon with the cost of repairs.

[MtB]

From the Travel Power page at Beta Marine's site:

 

Beta has pioneered the use of engine mounted ‘Travel Power’ generators - developing 230 volts - 50 Hz from 1100 rpm to maximum engine speed. Travel Power output increases with engine speed achieving full output at approximately 1600 rpm - cruising speed. These provide compact solutions for electricity to power your washer / dryer, electric oven, kettle or microwave etc.

 

Are you running your engine at 1,600+ rpm? If not, then your washing machine will be overloading the Travel Power unit. I dunno how the TP deals with this situation, posssibly not very well!

 

Another approach is to disconnect the heater element in your washing machine and use the cold wash cycle only. And/or connect it to your hot water supply.

 

MtB

[dmr]

Are you using Cox Automotive to do the repairs? If so what do they have to say? They know a lot about TravelPower and so based upon which bits have gone they might have some suggestions. Do you have a black box or silver box travelpower?

How quickly does travelpower die???

I have just one suggestion....

Travelpower is a bit odd (and naughty) as it does not actually make 240v on the live wire, but instead makes 120v on the live and 120v on the neutral.

If for some reason the neutral is bonded to earth in the washing machine, or more likely in your boats wiring, then TP will die.

(I am only 95% sure that what I say here is the truth).

 

...........Dave

 

Forgot to say...

 

One of the reasons its naughty is that if something is turned off on a single pole switch it will still have 120v inside it! This includes wall sockets!

Still a damn good machine though!

 

..........Dave

[BruceinSanity]

From the Travel Power page at Beta Marine's site:

 

Beta has pioneered the use of engine mounted 'Travel Power' generators - developing 230 volts - 50 Hz from 1100 rpm to maximum engine speed. Travel Power output increases with engine speed achieving full output at approximately 1600 rpm - cruising speed. These provide compact solutions for electricity to power your washer / dryer, electric oven, kettle or microwave etc.

 

Are you running your engine at 1,600+ rpm? If not, then your washing machine will be overloading the Travel Power unit. I dunno how the TP deals with this situation, posssibly not very well!

 

Another approach is to disconnect the heater element in your washing machine and use the cold wash cycle only. And/or connect it to your hot water supply.

 

MtB

 

In the days when we had a TP, it just switched off if the demand was too great for the available output. I agree that Cox's are guys to go to for advice.

[Philippe]

Just using a local mechanic who sends the unit back to someone based in Scotland.

 

The engine speed required all depends on the pulley size chosen and needs to spin the Travel Power at about 4000/4500rpm to get full power and never more than 15000rpm. Not sure what size the pulley is on my boat, but even if I wasn't running the engine hard enough all that should happen would be that the washing wouldn't work or the TP would cut out. Why it would fry the entire electronics is beyond me.

 

The TP dies after about 10/15 minutes use of the washing machine. Doesn't thee heater element kick in immediately in a washing cycle? If so, it should have got past or have been drawing for a while the heaviest loading by the time the TP dies. As the washing machine carries on going using just alternator and battery power through the Victron inverter I can't see how it is drawing too much power.

 

The info on the "naughty" voltage setup is interesting. Not sure if this would have any bearing on any of these issues though.

 

I must say at this point I'm thinking of giving up and getting a Honda EU26i instead, before I spend more than one would cost in getting the TP repaired.

[nicknorman]

From the Travel Power page at Beta Marine's site:

 

Beta has pioneered the use of engine mounted ‘Travel Power’ generators - developing 230 volts - 50 Hz from 1100 rpm to maximum engine speed. Travel Power output increases with engine speed achieving full output at approximately 1600 rpm - cruising speed. These provide compact solutions for electricity to power your washer / dryer, electric oven, kettle or microwave etc.

 

Are you running your engine at 1,600+ rpm? If not, then your washing machine will be overloading the Travel Power unit. I dunno how the TP deals with this situation, posssibly not very well!

 

Another approach is to disconnect the heater element in your washing machine and use the cold wash cycle only. And/or connect it to your hot water supply.

 

MtB

We've go the remote panel and it says "low rpm" if the rpm is too low for the load and the voltage droops. I think it would cut out gracefully if running much too slow for the load. But we don't need 1600, more like 1200 to get full output (Beta 43). No probs running our washing machine, but is a Zanussi compact and only uses about 1400w max

Edited February 7, 2013 by nicknorman

[Philippe]

Seems that it is Cox who are dealing with the TP and in dialogue with my mechanic.

[OldGoat]

Now this is getting silly. I've managed to completely fry my Domestic Travel Power generator 3 times now just by running the washing machine.

 

Got it repaired the first time and everyone thought it was the fault of the Travel Power unit. Turned on the washing machine and within 10/15 minutes it blew again.

 

Repaired again and the engineer suspected it was a fault in the Victron Filax switch that was causing power to feedback to the Travel Pack. As the Filax didn't appear to be working it was removed and the Travel Power wired directly to the input of my Victron Multiplus 12/2500/120. Turned on washing machine and 10/15 minutes later the Travel Power blew yet again.

 

 

I don't understand the words in blod above. I assume you mean the output of the Multiplus (ie the 240V side).

Assuming that's correct, I always understood it was "not a good idea" to parallel AC supplies because the outputs have to be synchronised and not all generators can do that. Even if both the TP and the Victron do synchronise there might be a problem with one or both systems? After all you hadn't said you had looked at it from that angle.

 

Perhaps I'm old fashioned but I keep all power sources well isolated from one another.

Edited February 7, 2013 by OldGoat

[nb Innisfree]

We've go the remote panel and it says "low rpm" if the rpm is too low for the load and the voltage droops. I think it would cut out gracefully if running much too slow for the load. But we don't need 1600, more like 1200 to get full output (Beta 43). No probs running our washing machine, but is a Zanussi compact and only uses about 1400w max

If OPs TP is too slow his Multiplus (if switch is set to 'on') will make up any shortfall from batts.

 

I don't understand the words in blod above. I assume you mean the output of the Multiplus (ie the 240V side).

Assuming that's correct, I always understood it was "not a good idea" to parallel AC supplies because the outputs have to be synchronised and not all generators can do that. Even if both the TP and the Victron do synchronise there might be a problem with one or both systems? After all you hadn't said you had looked at it from that angle.

 

Perhaps I'm old fashioned but I keep all power sources well isolated from one another.

 

All incoming AC is connected to Victron AC input which is then switched through to consumer unit. Victron will mimic incoming waveform whatever that is and run parallel.

[NB Lola]

Similar problem way back. Found out that the washing machine wiring loom was shorting when the washer went into a particular cycle.

[nb Innisfree]

Similar problem way back. Found out that the washing machine wiring loom was shorting when the washer went into a particular cycle.

 

Didn't it trip your MCB? Was your TP damaged in any way?

[NB Lola]

Eventually yes but for a while it just caused washing machine to stop, summit to do with the cycling electronics

[Philippe]

I don't understand the words in blod above. I assume you mean the output of the Multiplus (ie the 240V side).

Assuming that's correct, I always understood it was "not a good idea" to parallel AC supplies because the outputs have to be synchronised and not all generators can do that. Even if both the TP and the Victron do synchronise there might be a problem with one or both systems? After all you hadn't said you had looked at it from that angle.

 

Perhaps I'm old fashioned but I keep all power sources well isolated from one another.

The output from the Travel Power (240v) goes to the 240V input of the Victron which then treats it just like shore power and the charger functionality kicks in. It's a Multiplus so is an inverter and charger. The 240V supply also passes through to the 240V output.

 

Didn't it trip your MCB? Was your TP damaged in any way?

 

Eventually yes but for a while it just caused washing machine to stop, summit to do with the cycling electronics

That's what I would expect which is why the frying of the TP mystifies me (and everyone working on it).

 

It's a silver TP by the way, not a black one (though I've no idea what the difference is)

 

Edited to add silver machine detail

Edited February 7, 2013 by Philippe

[nb Innisfree]

Eventually yes but for a while it just caused washing machine to stop, summit to do with the cycling electronics

Did it damage your Travelpower?

 

The output from the Travel Power (240v) goes to the 240V input of the Victron which then treats it just like shore power and the charger functionality kicks in. It's a Multiplus so is an inverter and charger. The 240V supply also passes through to the 240V output.

 

 

 

 

That's what I would expect which is why the frying of the TP mystifies me (and everyone working on it).

 

It's a silver TP by the way, not a black one (though I've no idea what the difference is)

 

Edited to add silver machine detail

 

Wasxyour Multiplus switched to 'on' or 'charger only'?

 

We need Gibbo.

[Philippe]

Did it damage your Travelpower?

 

 

 

Wasxyour Multiplus switched to 'on' or 'charger only'?

 

We need Gibbo.

It was switched to "On"

[NB Lola]

No damage to TP

[nb Innisfree]

It was switched to "On"

 

I gather you haven't tried running w/m directly from TP, If you haven't already tried it switch to 'charger only' then Victron will switch TP direct to consumer unit with no input from Victron inverter. If it runs it would indicate some sort of mismatch between Victron and TP, is Victron voltage matched to TPs? I don't know if that matters, just a thought.

[nicknorman]

Picking up on the earlier point about the TP being 120v on both live and neutral, on our system with Mastervolt Combi, its set to connect neutral to earth when inverting, and to open that relay when running from incoming shore power or TP. I don't know how it would handle assisting the TP by giving inverter plus TP - it's capable of doing that but I have that element turned off.

 

So just wondering if the Victron is going into power assist mode when the washer heater kicks in, closing the ground relay as a consequence, and thus putting a short circuit onto the TP "neutral" line.

 

Might be worth checking your settings on the Victron - that the shore power limit is set to 16A (max from the TP) and/or the power assist function is turned off.

 

Just to reinforce I am guessing here and could be completely wrong!

 

Also, did you get any info on what they did to fix it - might give a clue to the cause.

Edited February 7, 2013 by nicknorman

[Philippe]

The maximum setting on the Victron is 16 amps and that was what it was set on when the TP blew.

 

No idea what they fixed - they just said it was completely fried.

 

Interesting point about the neutral. Will put that to my mechanic and see what they say.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Philippe

[Justme]

Can the TP supply 16 amps?

[by'eck]

Picking up on the earlier point about the TP being 120v on both live and neutral, on our system with Mastervolt Combi, its set to connect neutral to earth when inverting, and to open that relay when running from incoming shore power or TP. I don't know how it would handle assisting the TP by giving inverter plus TP - it's capable of doing that but I have that element turned off.

 

So just wondering if the Victron is going into power assist mode when the washer heater kicks in, closing the ground relay as a consequence, and thus putting a short circuit onto the TP "neutral" line.

 

Might be worth checking your settings on the Victron - that the shore power limit is set to 16A (max from the TP) and/or the power assist function is turned off.

 

Just to reinforce I am guessing here and could be completely wrong!

 

Also, did you get any info on what they did to fix it - might give a clue to the cause.

 

Sounds like you may be onto something there Nick. The TP has the centre tapped earth connection and the Victron Combi (if it works like my Sterling) straps inverter neutral to earth, but only when its running. As you say this would place a direct short on one half the output windings of the TP if the two were connected.

 

If I'm right in this described scenario, how does your system cope? Not a challenge just interested

[nb Innisfree]

Just thinking aloud

 

On our earlier model Multiplus 24-300-70 there us no auto e/n bond so we have 120v on neutral and live, manually switching in bonding results in 230v on live and zero on neutral.

 

OPs Victron when connected to TP will disconnect e/n bond if it is auto disconnect model, so if it has no auto bond then result will be the same. Our inverter suitcase genny has no e/n bond and works fine with our Multiplus whether or not we have it bonded and Multiplus also is ok with incoming bonded shorepower, so on that basis TP should be ok whether TP is bonded or not?

Edited February 7, 2013 by nb Innisfree

[nb Innisfree]

Can the TP supply 16 amps?

 

Should do if it is 3.5 kva, though a little bell is ringing, doesn't one of the TP models produce less, 3kva or less?

[nicknorman]

Sounds like you may be onto something there Nick. The TP has the centre tapped earth connection and the Victron Combi (if it works like my Sterling) straps inverter neutral to earth, but only when its running. As you say this would place a direct short on one half the output windings of the TP if the two were connected.

 

If I'm right in this described scenario, how does your system cope? Not a challenge just interested

Well as I said, I have never tried it in power assist mode - the Mastervolt is either acting as an inverter, in which case auto E-N bond made, or as a pass-through for TP or shore power, in which case auto E-N bond opens.

 

Just thinking aloud

 

On our earlier model Multiplus 24-300-70 there us no auto e/n bond so we have 120v on neutral and live, manually switching in bonding results in 230v on live and zero on neutral.

 

OPs Victron when connected to TP will disconnect e/n bond if it is auto disconnect model, so if it has no auto bond then result will be the same. Our inverter suitcase genny has no e/n bond and works fine with our Multiplus whether or not we have it bonded and Multiplus also is ok with incoming bonded shorepower, so on that basis TP should be ok whether TP is bonded or not?

No, because the TP is also connected to hull / ground / 0v via its alternator and the shielded cable. Therefore both live and neutral are at 120v~ relative to ground, not floating. Connecting Neutral to Earth would put a direct short circuit on it.

 

Should do if it is 3.5 kva, though a little bell is ringing, doesn't one of the TP models produce less, 3kva or less?

OP said it was 3.5 kw.

[smileypete]

So just wondering if the Victron is going into power assist mode when the washer heater kicks in, closing the ground relay as a consequence, and thus putting a short circuit onto the TP "neutral" line.

I wonder what overload protection the TP itself has? If there isn't any it won't help much if the downstream MCB's are single pole . So possibly the TP should be protected by a double pole MCB, an RCD on it's output too might help, as it may trip faster than an MCB on neutral to earth shorts.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~