Connection of gas appliances

[mango]

I am helping a friend fit out a boat and need some advice relating to LPG systems and compliance with BSS. There will be two propane bottles, an automatic changeover regulator, valve and bubble tester in the gas locker, and two appliances – a hob and a built-in oven/grill.

 

1. Is it better to connect the appliances using copper tubing or flexible hoses?

 

2. All joints have to be accessible for inspection and a removable inspection panel is allowed. Is this just the appliance connection or does it include connections in the appliance, as supplied by the manufacturer?

[churchward]

I am helping a friend fit out a boat and need some advice relating to LPG systems and compliance with BSS. There will be two propane bottles, an automatic changeover regulator, valve and bubble tester in the gas locker, and two appliances – a hob and a built-in oven/grill.

 

1. Is it better to connect the appliances using copper tubing or flexible hoses?

 

2. All joints have to be accessible for inspection and a removable inspection panel is allowed. Is this just the appliance connection or does it include connections in the appliance, as supplied by the manufacturer?

 

It is OK and preferable to use a flexible hose from a point close to the appliance and use a hose 600mm to 1000mm maximum. It will also serve as a way of being able to pull a cooker for instance out from its fixings a small way without having to disconnect solid pipework.

 

You can buy pre made flexible hoses with copper tupe on each end to fix to compression joints into the main system and to the appliance.

 

example here

 

http://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/Products/PlumbingGas/GasSystems/GasHoses/AH066.aspx

 

As you will see they tend to come with a braided out cover.

 

Out cooker has a connection just like this and passed the BSS last year.

 

I think the gas links inside the device as part of the manufacture of the appliance are no interest to the BSS checks as these will have gone through processes to achive correct standard ratings. Unless of course the leak test proved something was wrong.

Edited December 6, 2012 by churchward

[mango]

Thanks Churchward. It would certainly help to have a flexible hose on the oven/grill and I like the idea of pre-made hoses.

[the grinch]

I personally prefer rigid pipework to the hob, but unlike NG where flexible hoses are not allowed on hobs its common practice on boats. either seem to be acceptable

[alan_fincher]

From memory:

 

If you use flexible hoses, you must use the proper pre-made ones, IIRC, they must have the correct markings, be of the shortest length they can reasonably be, and in any case never more than 1 metre.

 

If you connect through hose, I think there has to be an individual isolation valve before the hose, in each case.

 

But I'm doing that from memory, so please download the regs and check.

 

Athough there is no specific rue about how old a hose cann be, (I think!), beware of buying hoses in chandleries that have a low turn-over rate - the manufacturing date may be some considerable time ago. Better to buy from somewhere with a high turnover, (e.g. BES), to ensure the tags on your new hoses indicate it is of recent manufacture.

[mango]

If the hob can be inspected from below, I think a hose is not needed. The BSS information warns that they have a limited life.

 

I think your memory serves you very well, Alan.

[MtB]

Is this a liveaboard or a leisure craft?

 

MtB

[mango]

Is this a liveaboard or a leisure craft?

 

MtB

It will probably become a liveaboard.

[Radiomariner]

I am helping a friend fit out a boat and need some advice relating to LPG systems and compliance with BSS. There will be two propane bottles, an automatic changeover regulator, valve and bubble tester in the gas locker, and two appliances – a hob and a built-in oven/grill.

 

1. Is it better to connect the appliances using copper tubing or flexible hoses?

 

2. All joints have to be accessible for inspection and a removable inspection panel is allowed. Is this just the appliance connection or does it include connections in the appliance, as supplied by the manufacturer?

 

 

Churchward, mango, and hamsterfan. All good advice.

As a boat examiner I like to be able to inspect the connections to the cooker and hob with as little hassle as possible. Some installers when using direct copper tube connections start with the cooker/hob connections then put the appliance in position then begin run the pipe towards the gas bottle making a nice tidy installations and solving the problem of making that connection behind the appliance. This however often makes inspection of the connection difficult without dismantling a lot of the boat. The hose option is often preferable as it allows the appliance to be removed far enough for such inspections. (A hose itself of course is subject to inspection)

 

I should add, where there is more than one appliance, where a hose is used, there should be an isolation valve fitted before the hose.

 

Connections, made by the appliance manufacturer inside the appliance do not have to be accessable. The connection connecting the appliance to the line does.

I perefer to be able to follow the complete line from gas locker to appliances, but inspection hatches at any couplings are acceptable. Tip. A smart ventilation plate makes a suitable cover.

[mango]

Thanks very much for all the advice.

 

My next problem is finding a suitable automatic changeover regulator to connect to two Calor propane bottles. I rang BES this morning and asked if there products were BSS compliant and the answer was 'no idea'. Not a good start, but he did give me part numbers for the bits needed to link a 1/2" female outlet to a 10 mm copper pipe, the size recommended by the intended BSS examiner.

 

BES offer various changeover regulators at different prices and I would be grateful for advice on which to go for. All are capable of handling the maximum demand of the appliances.

[RLWP]

Is this a liveaboard or a leisure craft?

 

MtB

 

 

It will probably become a liveaboard.

 

I suspect that providing that answer to Mike's question means that you are breaking the law.

 

Fortunately for you, I'm not qualified to know if that is exactly true, and Mike appears to have become suddenly deaf for professional reasons

 

Richard

[Grace and Favour]

I suspect that providing that answer to Mike's question means that you are breaking the law.

 

Fortunately for you, I'm not qualified to know if that is exactly true, and Mike appears to have become suddenly deaf for professional reasons

 

Richard

 

Mango - - - -

 

I believe (and I am no expert on this - - that a gas installation on a boat that is know will become a live aboard must be 'installed' by a gas installer with a 'Marine' ticket qualification

[mango]

I suspect that providing that answer to Mike's question means that you are breaking the law.

 

Fortunately for you, I'm not qualified to know if that is exactly true, and Mike appears to have become suddenly deaf for professional reasons

 

Richard

At the moment, I'm only trying to source the appropriate parts to do the job. Years ago I did a gas system on a boat and it has passed three or more BSS exams, and fixed gas leaks on other boats. Regulations have become tighter.

 

I had assumed that MtB was referring to the fact that not all BSS examiners can examine a liveaboard boat, but I don't know.

 

Whether the boat owner can legally do the installation, I'm not sure. I doubt that I can, or would want to take the responsibility.

 

I'm accustomed to working with thick wall stainless steel tubing and Swagelok connectors, which are so well engineered that they can't possibly leak – useful when working with hydrogen.

 

Mango - - - -

 

I believe (and I am no expert on this - - that a gas installation on a boat that is know will become a live aboard must be 'installed' by a gas installer with a 'Marine' ticket qualification

This is what the BSS has to say on the matter: http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/boat-examination/boats-with-gas/residential,-liveaboard-craft-and-houseboats

 

I assume that means that I could not legally do the installation because I would be working as an unqualified contractor, even if unpaid. What I am not sure about is whether the boat owner can legally do the work.

[Radiomariner]

Dare I step in where angels fear to tread?

The owner of a private boat may carry out such gas work on his own boat residential or not.I dont think there is any regulation or requirement enforcing this be otherwise. If he hires a contractor to do gas work, the contractor should be registered with Gas Safe to work on boats. It is a question of liability, the registered fitter has liability insurance for this. If you do it yourself you are liable. Remember this, you could be found liable for manslaughter!

 

Now, this is where folks get confused. Mango's link refers to BSS Examinations. It is a requirement that residential boats meet certain criteria (housing regulations) this forbids unregistered contractors from working on the gas system. The examiner, paid by you, is effictivly a contractor, so he is not permitted to carry out a tightness test that involves the removal of a component. (Screw on test nipple) unless he is properly registered with Gas Safe. He may however carry out a tightness test where a bubble tester is fitted, or witness a "manometer" test by a qualified person.

This ruling also applies to Hire and business craft which in addition to above have a different, stricter, set of examination procedures.

It was suggested on a thread some time ago that the examiner could witness a test carried out by the owner. but the examiner's remit is for it to be done by a properly and currently registered person.

 

In my opinion all a bit of legislative madness. All BSS examiners are trained to do tightness tests by British Gas. and have Liability and Indemnity cover to the sum of £5,000,000 for each.

 

I suppose the difference may be that examiners test like a MOT only says that it is safe only on the day of examination, while the registered fitters work should be safe indefinately

 

As the OP has a bubble tester fitted, hopefully in the gas locker, these issues should be of little concern.

Edited December 7, 2012 by Radiomariner

[MtB]

I suspect that providing that answer to Mike's question means that you are breaking the law.

 

Fortunately for you, I'm not qualified to know if that is exactly true, and Mike appears to have become suddenly deaf for professional reasons

 

Richard

 

No, not deaf, just busy, although I must say I am reluctant to post in gas threads these days as I feel my posts get buried and lost in the avalanche of misinformation from unqualified people that gas questions seem to attract! I also assumed (incorrectly as it turns out!) the OP might have noticed by now the other OTHER currently running about qualifications for fitting gas cookers, which covers this exact point. Here:

"Gas cooker, Does the fitter need a marine ticket for BSS?"

 

Copy N paste from my answer there:

 

"Residential boats fall under the scope of the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998, which demand fitters are registered if working for reward, and just 'competent' if no reward is given.

 

Leisure boats fall outside the scope so unqualified peeps may instal without contravening the GSIUR"

 

Hope that explains.

 

MtB

[mango]

No, not deaf, just busy, although I must say I am reluctant to post in gas threads these days as I feel my posts get buried and lost in the avalanche of misinformation from unqualified people that gas questions seem to attract! I also assumed (incorrectly as it turns out!) the OP might have noticed by now the other OTHER currently running about qualifications for fitting gas cookers, which covers this exact point. Here:

"Gas cooker, Does the fitter need a marine ticket for BSS?"

 

Copy N paste from my answer there:

 

"Residential boats fall under the scope of the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998, which demand fitters are registered if working for reward, and just 'competent' if no reward is given.

 

Leisure boats fall outside the scope so unqualified peeps may instal without contravening the GSIUR"

 

Hope that explains.

 

MtB

I believe the discussions about fitting cookers started after I posted my original question. Understanding the rules is certainly of interest but my main aim of posting is to find out what parts are needed for the job and where might be a good source of these parts.

[MtB]

I believe the discussions about fitting cookers started after I posted my original question. Understanding the rules is certainly of interest but my main aim of posting is to find out what parts are needed for the job and where might be a good source of these parts.

 

You posted your original question at 9.19pm last night. The other thread has been running since 4th December!

 

I'd suggest aquafax.co.uk for parts. It is too complex an installation to be able to give you a list of what you'll need. And I suggest you buy and study a copy of PD 5482-3:2005, it contains a lot of traps for the unwary DIY installer.

 

MtB

[mango]

You posted your original question at 9.19pm last night. The other thread has been running since 4th December!

 

I'd suggest aquafax.co.uk for parts. It is too complex an installation to be able to give you a list of what you'll need. And I suggest you buy and study a copy of PD 5482-3:2005, it contains a lot of traps for the unwary DIY installer.

 

MtB

To err is human.

 

I will have a look at Aquafax and know someone with an account with them. Hopefully they will know if their parts are BSS compliant. Thanks.

[smileypete]

I believe the discussions about fitting cookers started after I posted my original question. Understanding the rules is certainly of interest but my main aim of posting is to find out what parts are needed for the job and where might be a good source of these parts.

Would help to be more specific, what size pipe is it, what sort of fitting on the cooker? Any hoses or isolation valves MUST be suitable for LPG, any compression fittings MUST use soft copper olives, any PTFE tape that's used on threaded fittings MUST be 'gas grade', the soft copper pipe MUST be the correct thickness.

 

I'd strongly recommend your friend gets the install done by someone Gas Safe registered with the right ticket to work on houseboats, even if you and he supplies all the right bits. You can always run and clip the pipes neatly and correctly and accessibly, to save a bit of time, let the gas bod connect it all up.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

[mango]

Would help to be more specific, what size pipe is it, what sort of fitting on the cooker? Any hoses or isolation valves MUST be suitable for LPG, any compression fittings MUST use soft copper olives, any PTFE tape that's used on threaded fittings MUST be 'gas grade', the soft copper pipe MUST be the correct thickness.

 

I'd strongly recommend your friend gets the install done by someone Gas Safe registered with the right ticket to work on houseboats, even if you and he supplies all the right bits. You can always run and clip the pipes neatly and correctly and accessibly, to save a bit of time, let the gas bod connect it all up.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Thanks. The hob and oven/grill have 8 mm inlets, so I need compression fittings to take them to 10 mm and appropriate isolation valves if we go for flexible hoses to link in the appliances. I do appreciate the need for the right olives on compression fittings, having done work in science labs, though it's a good thing to point out. I appreciate that PTFE tape must be of the appropriate grade and is only for specific uses such as taper fittings. The BSS examiner has said that a 10 mm supply pipe is adequate for both appliances, so no need for anything bigger.

 

My main problem is to source an automatic changeover that is BSS compliant and will not cost a fortune. BES offer various possibilities for use with a two bottle system but were unable to say whether they are BSS compliant, though I cannot immediately see a problem since they have the appropriate grade flexible pipes, non-return valves and over-pressure protection. Mike mentioned Aquafax, but the one they offer is well over twice the price of some of the options offered by BES. I well remember when many boaters bought perfectly good fire extinguishers that were not BSS compliant, simply because they did not have the appropriate certification.

 

My intention is to install the pipework etc, supporting it at the correct intervals to save time and money. As far as I'm concerned, the gas bod can do the connections. If the owner wants DIY I will explain that this isn't permitted for a residential boat.

[bizzard]

Thanks. The hob and oven/grill have 8 mm inlets, so I need compression fittings to take them to 10 mm and appropriate isolation valves if we go for flexible hoses to link in the appliances. I do appreciate the need for the right olives on compression fittings, having done work in science labs, though it's a good thing to point out. I appreciate that PTFE tape must be of the appropriate grade and is only for specific uses such as taper fittings. The BSS examiner has said that a 10 mm supply pipe is adequate for both appliances, so no need for anything bigger.

 

My main problem is to source an automatic changeover that is BSS compliant and will not cost a fortune. BES offer various possibilities for use with a two bottle system but were unable to say whether they are BSS compliant, though I cannot immediately see a problem since they have the appropriate grade flexible pipes, non-return valves and over-pressure protection. Mike mentioned Aquafax, but the one they offer is well over twice the price of some of the options offered by BES. I well remember when many boaters bought perfectly good fire extinguishers that were not BSS compliant, simply because they did not have the appropriate certification.

 

My intention is to install the pipework etc, supporting it at the correct intervals to save time and money. As far as I'm concerned, the gas bod can do the connections. If the owner wants DIY I will explain that this isn't permitted for a residential boat.

Automatic change over is only really useful on hire boats to stop folk meddling and disconnecting and connecting the gas bottles ect when a bottle runs empty and are more connections that can leak. On a private boat i think its best to keep it simple with just one gas hose tail with a direct bottle fitting regulator on it.

Edited December 8, 2012 by bizzard

[MtB]

<snip> any compression fittings MUST use soft copper olives</snip>

 

Pete, can I pick you up on that please? I have often hear this stated but I am unaware of the source.

 

I have seen a clause saying olives must be "copper or copper alloy" (brass being a 'copper alloy' in my book!) but today, I can't even find that.

 

Can you cite a reference for 'soft copper olives only'?

 

Cheers,

MtB

 

" Any hoses or isolation valves MUST be suitable for LPG, any compression fittings MUST use soft copper olives, any PTFE tape that's used on threaded fittings MUST be 'gas grade', the soft copper pipe MUST be the correct thickness."

 

Mango, these are examples of the 'traps' I mentioned. There are others, for example 'no sealant or PTFE on the copper olives'. No soldered fittings allowed. All joints must be readily accessible. No unnecessary joints to be installed, i.e. use long enough lengths of pipe. There are loads of traps like this you may not find out about until the finished installation is inspected.

 

As far as auto changeover valves are concerned, the only thing BSS demands of them that I can think of is non-return valves in the ends of the flexible bottle tails.

 

MtB

[mango]

Automatic change over is only really useful on hire boats to stop folk meddling and disconnecting and connecting the gas bottles ect when a bottle runs empty and are more connections that can leak. On a private boat i think its best to keep it simple with just one gas hose tail with a direct bottle fitting regulator on it.

That is fine if everyone who might change a bottle is competent to do it and check for leaks and the bottle always runs out when it is daylight and dry. Having used boats with single connections, I prefer a manual or automatic changeover.

[system 4-50]

Automatic change over is only really useful on hire boats to stop folk meddling and disconnecting and connecting the gas bottles ect when a bottle runs empty and are more connections that can leak. On a private boat i think its best to keep it simple with just one gas hose tail with a direct bottle fitting regulator on it.

Absolutely right. There is nothing wrong with getting out of your shower, covered in soap and dripping wet, and wandering off to the stern to change a bottle so that your Morco can generate hot water. Better still just rinse off in cold water. Best of all, take your bottle down to your boatyard and get it changed, but in this case it is a good idea to wrap a towel around yourself. Look, we are not going to regain our empire by being soft, are we?

[bizzard]

That is fine if everyone who might change a bottle is competent to do it and check for leaks and the bottle always runs out when it is daylight and dry. Having used boats with single connections, I prefer a manual or automatic changeover.

How do you know when all the bottles have run out with automatic change over?. As you say a manual two-way tap might be best then. I wouldn't leave a tail with a one way valve in it disconnected, in my experience one way valves don't always remain one way for long, seen quite a few of them slightly leaking by and wasting gas.