Starter motor solenoid dreaded click.

[rusty69]

Our Yanmar ysb 12 is suffering the dreaded solenoid click.

 

Things tried so far.

 

1.Starter motor checked to be ok by auto technician.

 

2.No significant voltage drops along circuit. 

 

3.New starter switch on remote panel. 

 

4.New cable between starter switch and motor.

 

5.New battery cables between battery-switch-starter,and battery - engine negative.

 

6.Alternative new switch connected directly to back of starter, bypassing main ignition switch.

 

Next step, dismantle starter motor and check brushes, and solenoid contacts  (if possible).

 

Any other suggestions before I get the spanners out gratefully received.

 

It is an intermittent fault. 

Edited September 28, 2018 by rusty69

[mrsmelly]

10 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Our Yanmar ysb 12 is suffering the dreaded solenoid click.

 

Things tried so far.

 

1.Starter motor checked to be ok by auto technician.

 

2.No significant voltage drops along circuit. 

 

3.New starter switch on remote panel. 

 

4.New cable between starter switch and motor.

 

5.New battery cables between battery-switch-starter,and battery - engine negative.

 

6.Alternative new switch connected directly to back of starter, bypassing main ignition switch.

 

Next step, dismantle starter motor and check brushes, and solenoid contacts  (if possible).

 

Any other suggestions before I get the spanners out gratefully received.

 

It is an intermittent fault. 

Smack it with a hammer whilst power on and see if it engages and spins?

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, mrsmelly said:

Smack it with a hammer whilst power on and see if it engages and spins?

Access is a bit limited, but as it is you, i will give it a go! 

[Boater Sam]

Good battery and connections?  Seems you have checked.

 

Is it possible to turn the engine by hand a bit?

[rusty69]

Just now, Boater Sam said:

Good battery and connections?  Seems you have checked.

 

Is it possible to turn the engine by hand a bit?

Yes. 

 

Yes, it has a crank handle. 

[Sea Dog]

You are actually activating the starter by ignition key (or whatever) and not having a car related brain fart and pushing the button which gives a similar click but is actually only there to stop the engine, aren't you? (Don't ask why I'm checking this...!)

 

[Boater Sam]

So turn it a bit to get fresh teeth in line.

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

You are actually activating the starter by ignition key (or whatever) and not having a car related brain fart and pushing the button which gives a similar click but is actually only there to stop the engine, aren't you? (Don't ask why I'm checking this...!)

 

Ha ha. Nope. It doesn't have a stop button. 

2 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

So turn it a bit to get fresh teeth in line.

Ok, thanks I will try. 

31 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Our Yanmar ysb 12 is suffering the dreaded solenoid click.

 

Things tried so far.

 

1.Starter motor checked to be ok by auto technician.

 

2.No significant voltage drops along circuit. 

 

3.New starter switch on remote panel. 

 

4.New cable between starter switch and motor.

 

5.New battery cables between battery-switch-starter,and battery - engine negative.

 

6.Alternative new switch connected directly to back of starter, bypassing main ignition switch.

 

Next step, dismantle starter motor and check brushes, and solenoid contacts  (if possible).

 

Any other suggestions before I get the spanners out gratefully received.

 

It is an intermittent fault. 

Forgot. 

 

7. Jump leads connected directly to starter from starter battery. 

[Sea Dog]

1 minute ago, rusty69 said:

Ha ha. Nope. It doesn't have a stop button. 

Oh good. It was a very strange moment indeed, but quite a relief once whoever did it(!) realised what was going on! ?

[Gareth E]

Similar fault here. Brand new starter motor last year. 'Clicked' only very occasionally during the summer (dry?) but now, around half the time, the first attempt to turn the engine over will result in a click, the second one usually turns the engine over. The only other issue is the very odd time I notice a slight flicker on the battery (or is it alternator?) light on the control panel. I've checked and re-done the connections to the battery and starter motor.

 

Any ideas?   

[rusty69]

18 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

So turn it a bit to get fresh teeth in line.

Ok. Result = no change by rotating engine. 

33 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

Smack it with a hammer whilst power on and see if it engages and spins?

Right. Out of 10 taps on the solenoid, it turned over once. So it is a likely candidate,which is why i originally had it checked, as that is what I thought it was at the time. 

 

Possibly i need a new auto engineer and new solenoid! 

[mrsmelly]

3 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Ok. Result = no change by rotating engine. 

Right. Out of 10 taps on the solenoid, it turned over once. So it is a likely candidate,which is why i originally had it checked, as that is what I thought it was at the time. 

 

Possibly i need a new auto engineer and new solenoid! 

Yes I do agree. The oldest tests are the best innitt. Dont force it use a bigger hammer springs to mind ?

[rusty69]

13 minutes ago, Gareth E said:

Similar fault here. Brand new starter motor last year. 'Clicked' only very occasionally during the summer (dry?) but now, around half the time, the first attempt to turn the engine over will result in a click, the second one usually turns the engine over. The only other issue is the very odd time I notice a slight flicker on the battery (or is it alternator?) light on the control panel. I've checked and re-done the connections to the battery and starter motor.

 

Any ideas?   

Check for voltage drop along the circuit. I checked as per tony b's website. Switches, crimps, relays etc. 

Edited September 28, 2018 by rusty69

[rusty69]

So. Next question. Are the solenoid contacts likely to be user serviceable? 

Edited September 28, 2018 by rusty69

[Boater Sam]

Yes but not easily.

Auto electricians do overhaul solenoids, they are not cheap to buy as replacements.

[Sir Nibble]

This is my bread and butter. It sounds like a starter problem to me checked or not. How big a click? little *tic* or big CLUNK! Second, can you post a picture of the unit? I can probably tell you what's wrong and talk you through the repair if so. Too late now but it's not a good idea to beat starters with a hammer unless you know what you are looking at because lots of starters these days have permanent magnets and the traditional theraputic tap can shatter the magnets.

Contact serviceability varies, sometimes easy nut and bolt job, sometimes special press tools are needed. I can and will get parts at 57% discount if need be.

[Gareth E]

23 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

This is my bread and butter. It sounds like a starter problem to me checked or not. How big a click? little *tic* or big CLUNK! Second, can you post a picture of the unit? I can probably tell you what's wrong and talk you through the repair if so. Too late now but it's not a good idea to beat starters with a hammer unless you know what you are looking at because lots of starters these days have permanent magnets and the traditional theraputic tap can shatter the magnets.

Contact serviceability varies, sometimes easy nut and bolt job, sometimes special press tools are needed. I can and will get parts at 57% discount if need be.

In my case, definitely a tic rather than a clunk.

[rusty69]

19 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

This is my bread and butter. It sounds like a starter problem to me checked or not. How big a click? little *tic* or big CLUNK! Second, can you post a picture of the unit? I can probably tell you what's wrong and talk you through the repair if so. Too late now but it's not a good idea to beat starters with a hammer unless you know what you are looking at because lots of starters these days have permanent magnets and the traditional theraputic tap can shatter the magnets.

Contact serviceability varies, sometimes easy nut and bolt job, sometimes special press tools are needed. I can and will get parts at 57% discount if need be.

Many thanks.

 

I would say its a small click rather than a large clunk.

 

I have attached some pics,appologies, as access is difficult,kinda stick the camera in and hope. I will see if I can find some pics I took when it was off the engine.Its a Yanmar YSB engine on a sailing boat.

[Sir Nibble]

That's a rather elderly Hitachi unit and it's age together with the small *tic* suggests brush wear as the problem. If you get desperate for a start then connect a fuseholder and 20A fuse from the motor side of the solenoid to earth and try again, that would also confirm the diagnosis. I can have a set in my hand by tuesday if i dont have some squirreled away. You will need a serious soldering iron around 80W to replace them

If you undo the two screws on the back there is an "E" clip and washer behind the little cover. Remove the clip and washer and undo the two 8mm headed through bolts and the back will come off so you can visually inspect the brushes.

Edited September 28, 2018 by Sir Nibble

[rusty69]

5 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

That's a rather elderly Hitachi unit and it's age together with the small *tic* suggests brush wear as the problem. If you get desperate for a start then connect a fuseholder and 20A fuse from the motor side of the solenoid to earth and try again, that would also confirm the diagnosis. I can have a set in my hand by tuesday if i dont have some squirreled away. You will need a serious soldering iron around 80W to replace them

If you undo the two screws on the back there is an "E" clip and washer behind. Remove the clip and washer and undo the two 8mm headed through bolts and the back will come off so you can visually inspect the brushes.

Many thanks Sir Nibs.It will occasionally start, so I am not desperate, and I have the crank handle too.

 

I will have a look tomorrow in the daylight. Currently on a swinging mooring, so will have to take it home for any soldering. I have a big iron somewhere.

 

Cheers again

[Tony Brooks]

In no way doubting Sir N but before changing the brushes do you by any chance have a relay or external old car type solenoid feeding the starter energize terminal From what you say I doubt it but worth a check because solenoids often clonk, relays tend to tick more.

[rusty69]

32 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

In no way doubting Sir N but before changing the brushes do you by any chance have a relay or external old car type solenoid feeding the starter energize terminal From what you say I doubt it but worth a check because solenoids often clonk, relays tend to tick more.

Hi Tony, no relays in circuit

1 hour ago, Sir Nibble said:

This is my bread and butter. It sounds like a starter problem to me checked or not. How big a click? little *tic* or big CLUNK! Second, can you post a picture of the unit? I can probably tell you what's wrong and talk you through the repair if so. Too late now but it's not a good idea to beat starters with a hammer unless you know what you are looking at because lots of starters these days have permanent magnets and the traditional theraputic tap can shatter the magnets.

I would say a little click as opposed to big clunk. 

Recording attached (5 attempts at starting)

 

Click:-

 

click.mp3

Edited September 28, 2018 by rusty69

[Sir Nibble]

A recording! Lovely. Ok, that's more clunky than ticky. Could easily be a solenoid contact issue. Over the weekend see if you can try the fuse holder trick. If the fuse blows and it cranks, brushes, if the fuse stays intact, contacts. I am not 100% sure but I think the contact cap is held by a couple of screws on that old thing so do the test and I will look up the parts accordingly.

[rusty69]

12 minutes ago, Sir Nibble said:

A recording! Lovely. Ok, that's more clunky than ticky. Could easily be a solenoid contact issue. Over the weekend see if you can try the fuse holder trick. If the fuse blows and it cranks, brushes, if the fuse stays intact, contacts. I am not 100% sure but I think the contact cap is held by a couple of screws on that old thing so do the test and I will look up the parts accordingly.

Okay, it maybe clunky. Fuse holder and 20A fuse located. Now connect where? Braided terminal on motor and engine case? 

Edited September 28, 2018 by rusty69

[Sir Nibble]

That's it. Not everyone appreciates that the solenoid has two windings, engagement, which is multo powerful and earth's through the motor and hold in which has its own earth. If the brushes fail the engagement winding doesn't work and all you get is a faint tick as the hold in winding does little more than line up the plunger with the coils. The fuse gives an alternative path to earth for the engagement winding, engages the starter and blows the fuse when the contacts close. The arrival of 12V usually recalls the brushes to their duty and amidst much sparking the motor cranks.