pete harrison Posted September 5, 2018 Report Share Posted September 5, 2018 11 minutes ago, RLWP said: More likely is that the 1961 conversion is where the cabin and engine came from, not being another day boat in a fleet This is what was happening at the time, buying old day boats and converting them into pleasure craft. Floating Homes Ltd. bought several boats for conversion to house boats on the Basingstoke Canal. My understanding is that none were motorised at that time, although some were cut in two to produce two boats. It is my opinion that the motor conversion of PETRONELLA is much more recent, dating from the late 1980's or early 1990's - partly based upon the National still being in JOAN II in 1990 although it was removed and sold shortly afterwards. Clearly PETRONELLA could have had another engine before the National but I think it is unlikely 44 minutes ago, RLWP said: She would have been one of hundreds of open day boats on the BCN, possibly double ended (Pete?) Richard From the rake of the stem I would think No. 6 was a single ender, with the original fore end being the current fore end of PETRONELLA. Open B.C.N. day boats can be counted in the thousands rather than hundreds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RLWP Posted September 5, 2018 Report Share Posted September 5, 2018 10 minutes ago, pete harrison said: From the rake of the stem I would think No. 6 was a single ender, with the original fore end being the current fore end of PETRONELLA. Open B.C.N. day boats can be counted in the thousands rather than hundreds I was wary of exaggerating... I wonder what happened to No. 6's stern? Would it have become the fore end of another boat at that time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete harrison Posted September 5, 2018 Report Share Posted September 5, 2018 30 minutes ago, max's son said: (please repost your painted table picture be good to compare with my sisters) This painted item was a Cabin Stool, and was sold on Ebay today for £290 plus £7.00 postage (including a small Water Can). I had an interest up to about £50.00, although it had been at over £90.00 for a few days, and then forgot to watch at the end - thank goodness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete harrison Posted September 5, 2018 Report Share Posted September 5, 2018 Just now, RLWP said: I was wary of exaggerating... I wonder what happened to No. 6's stern? Would it have become the fore end of another boat at that time? The iron boats tended to stay full length when converted by Floating Homes Ltd.. As stated earlier I think this is a fairly recent motor conversion and I have no idea whether the redundant stern was used in another build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_fincher Posted September 5, 2018 Report Share Posted September 5, 2018 12 minutes ago, pete harrison said: The iron boats tended to stay full length when converted by Floating Homes Ltd.. As stated earlier I think this is a fairly recent motor conversion and I have no idea whether the redundant stern was used in another build The pictures are not that clear, but the motor stern conversion look to involve a fair amount of riveting. Although it may well be 1980s / 1990s I think converting a BCN boat by riveting would have been quite unusual then, (and more unusual than it might be now). The pictures also seem to show a fairly short swim without a lot of lines to it, being almost folded on a line, rather than progressing through a gentle curve. This is not untypical of Harris Brothers conversion of BCN boats around the late 1950s, early 1960s. However the Floating Homes thing, plus the counter not being at all a typical Harris offering, I think that is a red herring. Certainly an unusual conversion. If it is 1980s/1990s, I bet one of the usual suspects at one of the specialist yards will probably know the history. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete harrison Posted September 5, 2018 Report Share Posted September 5, 2018 (edited) 14 minutes ago, alan_fincher said: The pictures are not that clear, but the motor stern conversion look to involve a fair amount of riveting. Although it may well be 1980s / 1990s I think converting a BCN boat by riveting would have been quite unusual then, (and more unusual than it might be now). The pictures also seem to show a fairly short swim without a lot of lines to it, being almost folded on a line, rather than progressing through a gentle curve. This is not untypical of Harris Brothers conversion of BCN boats around the late 1950s, early 1960s. However the Floating Homes thing, plus the counter not being at all a typical Harris offering, I think that is a red herring. Certainly an unusual conversion. If it is 1980s/1990s, I bet one of the usual suspects at one of the specialist yards will probably know the history. I think the stern is not what it first appears to be. It looks to me like the side plates have been cut and shaped into the sides of the counter, and the stern most vertical row of rivets do not go through the semi-circular stern most part of the counter. I am inclined this is a 'home made' stern end edit = I can see why you think Harris may have carried out this motor conversion and perhaps the owner can tell us whether those rivets go though the semi-circular part of the counter Edited September 5, 2018 by pete harrison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_fincher Posted September 5, 2018 Report Share Posted September 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, pete harrison said: I think the stern is not what it first appears to be. It looks to me like the side plates have been cut and shaped into the sides of the counter, and the stern most vertical row of rivets do not go through the semi-circular stern most part of the counter. I am inclined this is a 'home made' stern end I'm not sure. There appears to be a line of closely spaced rivets along he bottom edge of the counter, and I can't imagine they happen to match something in the original straight sides from which the counter has been formed. You would not fake them for decoration, as they ar below the water line. Also that "guard", (I forget what it is called - something like "ovolo"???), is surely riveted on , and if this i a shortened boat, I doubt would originally have been here part way along the sides. I'm inclined to think that most of the forming of what we can see of the counter is genuinely riveted, but would need far more detailed pictures to be confident one way or the other. Do we know how long the boat is now? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike J Lewis Posted September 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2018 On 4 September 2018 at 15:02, alan_fincher said: See Mike - I told you at Alvecote that Pete Harrison would be able to correct some of the more "inventive" history that came with the boat's paperwork! Ok, getting the hang of this now, couldn't see why I couldn't reply to individuals, you did indeed Alan, thanks for the advice even though I did catch you at a very busy moment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete harrison Posted September 5, 2018 Report Share Posted September 5, 2018 2 minutes ago, alan_fincher said: I'm not sure. There appears to be a line of closely spaced rivets along he bottom edge of the counter, and I can't imagine they happen to match something in the original straight sides from which the counter has been formed. You would not fake them for decoration, as they ar below the water line. Also that "guard", (I forget what it is called - something like "ovolo"???), is surely riveted on , and if this i a shortened boat, I doubt would originally have been here part way along the sides. I'm inclined to think that most of the forming of what we can see of the counter is genuinely riveted, but would need far more detailed pictures to be confident one way or the other. Do we know how long the boat is now? I added the edit based upon the row of rivets along the bottom edge of the counter as it does add doubt. I am inclined to think they have used part of the original stern in order to get the slight rise towards the stern, and this would include the guard half way down the counter. I would like to apologise to the owner of PETRONELLA as we slowly dissect his pride and joy. 8 minutes ago, alan_fincher said: Do we know how long the boat is now? Petronella Built by Unknown - Length : 18.3 metres ( 60 feet ) - Beam : 2.14 metres ( 7 feet ). Metal hull N/A power of 20 HP. Registered with Canal & River Trust number 51867 as a Powered Motor Boat. ( Last updated on Saturday 19th April 2008 ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_fincher Posted September 5, 2018 Report Share Posted September 5, 2018 Whilst searching I found this, which seems to claim the National came from Leonard Leigh tug "Joan II" 6 minutes ago, pete harrison said: I added the edit based upon the row of rivets along the bottom edge of the counter as it does add doubt. I am inclined to think they have used part of the original stern in order to get the slight rise towards the stern, and this would include the guard half way down the counter Ah - not sure the edit was thee when I looked. I'm not saying it is Harris Brothers - just that it has some similarities, (and some considerable differences!) to their typical work. Of coursethey are famous that they only riveted - no welding. But if this was a Floating Homes boat at the date you suggest, surely the idea doesn't work anyway? I want to know now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete harrison Posted September 5, 2018 Report Share Posted September 5, 2018 5 minutes ago, alan_fincher said: Whilst searching I found this, which seems to claim the National came from Leonard Leigh tug "Joan II" As written by some clever dick know it all in post No. 2 of this thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob-M Posted September 5, 2018 Report Share Posted September 5, 2018 Just now, pete harrison said: As written by some clever dick know it all in post No. 2 of this thread And repeated in post #26. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_fincher Posted September 5, 2018 Report Share Posted September 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, pete harrison said: As written by some clever dick know it all in post No. 2 of this thread Oops! Must be right though - I found it on the Internet! 4 minutes ago, Rob-M said: And repeated in post #26. No need to rub it in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike J Lewis Posted September 5, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2018 Thought it might be easier to post these for discussion than try to reply to all, shots as the survey was happening And yes she is now 60ft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_fincher Posted September 5, 2018 Report Share Posted September 5, 2018 What does the surveyors report say about the construction of the rear swim and motor stern, please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek R. Posted September 6, 2018 Report Share Posted September 6, 2018 10 hours ago, alan_fincher said: What does the surveyors report say about the construction of the rear swim and motor stern, please? Oooh! Talk about poking a wasps nest! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bee Posted September 6, 2018 Report Share Posted September 6, 2018 Well the whole thing looks like a mixture to me. Fore end of a sort of Bantock look alike with solid stempost, back end from a different boat with a rolled sheet metal 'stem/sternpost' that was then made into a counter and joined together. Maybe the original back end became the front of an entirely different boat? Just thought I'd drop that in to simplify things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike J Lewis Posted September 6, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2018 12 hours ago, alan_fincher said: What does the surveyors report say about the construction of the rear swim and motor stern, please? The surveyors did not comment on the construction of the rear swim or motor stern specifically, only on condition and metal thicknesses. The word on the cut is that the previous owner shortened her by removing 10ft from midship, and I have heard no mention of work carried out to her stern as yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek R. Posted September 6, 2018 Report Share Posted September 6, 2018 (edited) I won't get into Bantock or not, as I don't know the finer points well enough, but there is a Bantock 'tug' for sale here: https://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/boat.phtml?id=561312 The fore end looks more rounded to me, and PETRONELLA looks more like ATLANTIC, at least the fore end: https://hnbc.org.uk/boats/atlantic Whatever, with the draught as it appears, she'll be skimming along quite nicely. Edited September 6, 2018 by Derek R. typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark99 Posted September 6, 2018 Report Share Posted September 6, 2018 I just seen it in the flesh again moored up today. It's an interesting looking boat in that it's striking to look <hard to ignore> at although not a beauty it's got a bit of presence. There is a welded towing eye or somesuch thing on the rear. Dunno if original or a later addition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted September 6, 2018 Report Share Posted September 6, 2018 5 hours ago, Derek R. said: I won't get into Bantock or not, as I don't know the finer points well enough, but there is a Bantock 'tug' for sale here: https://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/boat.phtml?id=561312 Jeez, it's the EMERALD yet again! Talk about pass the parcel. That boat spends more time on brokerage than being used. That cracked engine block must be more of a problem than each successive buyer expects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_fincher Posted September 6, 2018 Report Share Posted September 6, 2018 11 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said: Jeez, it's the EMERALD yet again! Talk about pass the parcel. That boat spends more time on brokerage than being used. That cracked engine block must be more of a problem than each successive buyer expects. Not sure it is "again" this time - it has been on sale for the latest occasion for several months, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob-M Posted September 6, 2018 Report Share Posted September 6, 2018 16 minutes ago, alan_fincher said: Not sure it is "again" this time - it has been on sale for the latest occasion for several months, I think. Yes, Emerald has been in Mercia marina on brokerage with New and Used for months, I think we first saw it around Easter in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike J Lewis Posted September 6, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2018 3 hours ago, mark99 said: I just seen it in the flesh again moored up today. It's an interesting looking boat in that it's striking to look <hard to ignore> at although not a beauty it's got a bit of presence. There is a welded towing eye or somesuch thing on the rear. Dunno if original or a later addition. Later I would have thought, although there seems to be some discussion about the stern. I might be a bit biased but I really like her looks, with a nice paint job and some TLC, I reckon she'll scrub up alright, pop round some time for a cuppa, I'll show you round Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete harrison Posted September 6, 2018 Report Share Posted September 6, 2018 2 hours ago, Mike J Lewis said: Later I would have thought, although there seems to be some discussion about the stern. I might be a bit biased but I really like her looks, with a nice paint job and some TLC, I reckon she'll scrub up alright, pop round some time for a cuppa, I'll show you round Please do not be put off by the discussion relating to your boat, as I am sure you will not be. All 'historic' boats have good and bad points, and these will be different to different people. Discussions such as this help to confirm details and it can be surprising what people know. I have no doubt that you have already learned a lot about PETRONELLA from this thread, and future conversations both here and across the towpath will answer almost all of your questions in the passing of time 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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