Newboat swap-outs

[jddevel]

On 29/06/2018 at 17:18, Richard10002 said:

Nocturnal visits??

I`m of an age when visits to the loo are needed.

[PD1964]

Don't waste your time or sleep over these poster's they rarely buy a boat

[1233jackb]

On 29/06/2018 at 16:46, jddevel said:

Firstly the early comments regarding your "terminology". I met a similar response when when I joined the forum and enquired about boats for sale. You sometimes have to be thick skinned and take it on the chin. However welcome. Personally although never viewing my narrowboat as a liveaboard I`ve hired boats for over 50 years both in the UK and elsewhere. The vessels have moved a long way from the wooden Broads cruisers to the new widebeams where novelty has been superseded by well planned comfortable craft. Spending £100k on a boat is a huge investment and has to "feel" right for you.   To that end I would firstly list the items you currently feel are a must have in todays` society from a respectable standard of living to the inclusion of the needs of modern technology. Then consider the practicalities of living on a boat. Battery power, space and comfort. With proper planning you don`t need to be masochist and suffer.  Second step visit as many boats you can especially those occupied by liveaboards. Even ask them what they might change given the chance, bearing in mind the answers may not be totally honest. Next talk to as many boat builders as possible. Not only the hull producers but those who also fit out. See how flexibly they are with designs and your personal ideas. Don`t forget whilst difficult things come at a cost they should not necessarily dictate how YOUR craft is finished. Once you`ve crossed off some of the things you "must" have and realize what you will get -hopefully is what you want. Finally expect to wait sometime for a good product. Infact this as suggested will maybe allow you to purchase a less expensive craft to appreciate what living afloat in a narrowboat entails. I couldn`t find my ideal or have the patience to wait so I fitted out a "sailaway". Time it took allowed me to modify/change ideas as I progressed. So far extremely satisfied - although still needs some superficial finishing touches but then as a house builder I had some practical experiences. Only thing I currently fault is that the hideaway bed installed in the bedroom to provide a second social area could have been a bit narrower to help with my nocturnal visits. Will sort that. 

 

 

Thanks! - Yeah i totally agree with what your saying. A colleague of mine of whom actually lives afloat on a narrowboat has been helping me along the way so far, And your both saying the same thing essentially.  I think a good thing for me to do is to write down a list of WANTS and NEEDS - so i can prioritise what sort of features i need my (Hopefully!) future boat to feature. One thing he has said to me (And hes been living aboard narrow boats for a good proportion of his life on and off) is that he doesn't really like gas. Apparently it can be quite expensive depending on how the boat is fitted out and what sort of equipment it has on it. One change he said he would love to make on his boat if he had the money to do so would be a diesel powered AGA Rangemaster which not only you can cook on but also provides heat. 

 

- Do these also heat hot water? 

 

We have a Rayburn at home (Very similar to a AGA just a different brand i suppose) , Ours we can cook on, it provides hot water and central heating for our home, its also diesel fired so can be abit noisy when running at full whack. I have looked at sailaways - on another topic, However its something i really just cant see myself doing. Currently (i may be wrong) i feel the cost of fitting a sailaway out would cost just as much is not more than just buying a new boat. Further more i cannot afford a new boat!  ... Everyone seems to be saying the same thing that i should go and check out as many different boats as possible to get a feel for them. I have seen a few i quite like and i have went to go and see one, So i now understand what you mean about ' getting a feel for the boat '  and i think one thing im 99% sure on unless for exceptional reasons, i want a partitioned off bathroom with a corridor bypassing it. Its just if i inevitably have friends staying over going to the loo and having a shower is going to be a awkward job if its a a walk through bathroom (bare in mind im 21 at the moment so my friends will be similar age, we like our privacy!). 

 

On 01/07/2018 at 00:54, PD1964 said:

Don't waste your time or sleep over these poster's they rarely buy a boat

 

I wouldnt waste sleep over me at this point. Nor do i expect people to take an interest, but for those i do i thank.  Its still very early days at this point and all just an idea, If i didn't end up buying a boa i think it will definitely be a life long interest and will certainly involve hiring boats out for holiday for may years to come. 

[Tony Brooks]

Ask friend how he gets on with the Aga this weather. Yes gas central heating is expensive but then so is diesel for the Aga. This is why solid fuel stoves are so popular on boats. Lowest cost of fuel, no unwanted heat in summer, and the ability to run rads & hot water if suitably specified. It all depends upon how you use your boat and what you expect from it. Please try to get aboard a boat with an Aga stove  or similar during some hot, still weather.

 

Once a gas system is properly installed I do not see any significant danger as long as you keep the maintenance up. Its when maintenance slips and things fall off that arn't attended to when danger may creep in. If gas worries you or friend then fit (and regularly test) a gas alarm.

 

Remember gas burns cleaner than diesel so gas boiler maintenance is less and probably at longer intervals than on any sort of diesel burner except possibly a pressure jet burner that are no readily available for 12/24 volt operation. The diesel boilers that sound like jet engines do not have a good name for reliability and spares can be expensive. Whilst I would never suggest gas as the main form of boat heating it has a place in the "quick bit of heat or hot water" scenario. My feeling for what its worth is the ideal boat system is gas for cooking (and fridge if possible), wet solid fuel stove with gravity circulation for the main heating system, engine, stove & gas boiler heated calorifier, and a gas boiler for sort term use for quick warm up while the stove is getting going. Having had a Rayburn cooker at home I would never want another in high summer.

[Athy]

15 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Having had a Rayburn cooker at home I would never want another in high summer.

We have an oil-fired Rayburn at home. Frankly, we don't notice any problem in summer: it is very well insulated (a fairly modern model, installed new in 2011). We notice the heat only when we lift the lids to use the hob, but then any sort of cooker will exude heat when one is cooking on it.

[MtB]

3 hours ago, Athy said:

We have an oil-fired Rayburn at home. Frankly, we don't notice any problem in summer: it is very well insulated (a fairly modern model, installed new in 2011). We notice the heat only when we lift the lids to use the hob, but then any sort of cooker will exude heat when one is cooking on it.

 

Does it make toast?

 

(The staple diet of many 21 year old solo blokes like the OP!)

[Athy]

11 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Does it make toast?

 

(The staple diet of many 21 year old solo blokes like the OP!)

It has no grill as such, but we have a wire rack-type thing, with handles, in which we make toast on the hob.

Edited July 4, 2018 by Athy

[jddevel]

14 hours ago, 1233jackb said:

i want a partitioned off bathroom with a corridor bypassing it.

I`ve a wetroom. Only error was that installing a raised area for the shower(access to trap etc.) meant the "off the shelf" bi-fold doors were peanuts compared to the £1100 (must say great though) ones I had to have specially made from Spain. All for 20mm but didn`t want to undo work completed. BAD Planning on my part. Great idea but failed with the detail!!!!

Regarding heating although never lived aboard have experienced both peat burning stoves in Irish boats and wood/coal in the UK. Lovely warmth but I went for diesel (Webasto). If great attention is made to insulation it`s convenience to me out weighted cleaning and maintenance and as mentioned alarms essential. At home ( Cornwall)I`ve oil fired and a Rayburn. Oil qualified tradesmen readily available - not so the solid fuel with the additional hazard of carbon monoxide poisoning. My diesel heated rads./calorifier haven`t this problem and with the heater in the engine room all separate from the living space. My only gas is the full size cooker/oven which has a continuous feed (New type gas pipe-not copper) from the bow gas locker to the stop valve adjacent to the cooker. Just needs local ventilation (opening window) or else gets to hot. These are just my personal views which may well change as time and use goes by but then having designed a good number of homes both to sell and live in I guarantee what`s great today will seem mistaken in time. Planning, planning and more planning especially regarding detail. By the time you manage to get a boat you may be someway to knowing what you want. I would emphasize your boat your needs. As to cost of a sailaway -probably half price but then I`m fortunate that work has given me a good deal of practical experience and equipment. After the hull,engine fitted, windows and ballast in and outside primed ( Just under £30K 57foot semi-trad) biggest expense was sand blasting back to bare metal and professional painted and sign written (Just over £8K) . Next major cost will be the hull being blasted and zinc metal spraying next March at just under £5K. Hull delivered to my location on hard standing October put in the water the next August for final professional battery wiring etc. at a marina. Worked on it virtually 7 days a week on my own with just a couple of days with an extra pair of hands.

[Robbo]

On 16/06/2018 at 18:49, 1233jackb said:

3. Finally it has a solid fuel stove ( like solid fuel stoves dont get me wrong) However im interested in theese diesel stoves as its just one less cost having to buy coal and wood etc. can i saqp out the solid fuel stove for a diesel one?

 

It's easy to swap out to a diesel heater as long as you can route the copper pipe from the tank, and if you don't want to run a pump have a small gravity fed tank as well.   The only issue really is the size of the diesel tank.  You will be using around 5-8 litres a day (about 200litres a month) in the depths of winter, so you ideally want a tank that can hold 3-4 months worth.   With coal you can get a winter's worth of supply in one go, if you have a small tank then you'll be re-filling often which more of a pain than using solid fuel!   The cost will be more to run, but this is usually due to mainly having the stove on 24/7, Solid fuel is a bit harder to do 24/7 so you tend to use less (colder boat tho), especially if you work and not on the boat, etc.

[George and Dragon]

10 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Please try to get aboard a boat with an Aga stove or similar during some hot, still weather.

My mother has an Aga which is, unfortunately, her sole source of hot water. It's on the north side of a room about 7'x10'. Ceiling height is probably 9'6". There's a window on the southern side 7'x4'. 

I'll leave to your imagination what that room is like at the moment.

 

In winter, however, it's fantastic.

[1233jackb]

On 04/07/2018 at 13:53, Robbo said:

 

It's easy to swap out to a diesel heater as long as you can route the copper pipe from the tank, and if you don't want to run a pump have a small gravity fed tank as well.   The only issue really is the size of the diesel tank.  You will be using around 5-8 litres a day (about 200litres a month) in the depths of winter, so you ideally want a tank that can hold 3-4 months worth.   With coal you can get a winter's worth of supply in one go, if you have a small tank then you'll be re-filling often which more of a pain than using solid fuel!   The cost will be more to run, but this is usually due to mainly having the stove on 24/7, Solid fuel is a bit harder to do 24/7 so you tend to use less (colder boat tho), especially if you work and not on the boat, etc.

Wow i had no idea that they used so much diesel! - I presume thats on the basis of a fairly modern stove and not an older model say pre 2000 for example? 

 

Im not against a solid fuel stove, at all, i have one here at home. I was just thinking about the mess they can make, So i though about exploring the option of a diesel stove. After reading that however i think my mind may be changed. However im sure its one of those things i need to experience first hand to decide on for sure. 

 

 

On 04/07/2018 at 07:30, Athy said:

We have an oil-fired Rayburn at home. Frankly, we don't notice any problem in summer: it is very well insulated (a fairly modern model, installed new in 2011). We notice the heat only when we lift the lids to use the hob, but then any sort of cooker will exude heat when one is cooking on it.

I have to agree here ^^

On 04/07/2018 at 07:12, Tony Brooks said:

Ask friend how he gets on with the Aga this weather. Yes gas central heating is expensive but then so is diesel for the Aga. This is why solid fuel stoves are so popular on boats. Lowest cost of fuel, no unwanted heat in summer, and the ability to run rads & hot water if suitably specified. It all depends upon how you use your boat and what you expect from it. Please try to get aboard a boat with an Aga stove  or similar during some hot, still weather.

 

Once a gas system is properly installed I do not see any significant danger as long as you keep the maintenance up. Its when maintenance slips and things fall off that arn't attended to when danger may creep in. If gas worries you or friend then fit (and regularly test) a gas alarm.

 

Remember gas burns cleaner than diesel so gas boiler maintenance is less and probably at longer intervals than on any sort of diesel burner except possibly a pressure jet burner that are no readily available for 12/24 volt operation. The diesel boilers that sound like jet engines do not have a good name for reliability and spares can be expensive. Whilst I would never suggest gas as the main form of boat heating it has a place in the "quick bit of heat or hot water" scenario. My feeling for what its worth is the ideal boat system is gas for cooking (and fridge if possible), wet solid fuel stove with gravity circulation for the main heating system, engine, stove & gas boiler heated calorifier, and a gas boiler for sort term use for quick warm up while the stove is getting going. Having had a Rayburn cooker at home I would never want another in high summer.

 

 

And i also agree here, Our Rayburn does taker alot of maintenance, sometimes from ourselves just opening the service hatch and getting in their with the vacuum cleaner - we live in a fairly dusty old house! And the spares are indeed expensive. 

 

Having gas for a instant hot water and heating i think is also an ideal situation with use of the stove to keep the boat warm via a circulated system. my next question is how common is this in narrowboats? Do alot of people have set-ups like this? and can you buy a boat with a set-up like this pre installed? - i know it sounds lazy however installing something like this myself is wayy beyond my skill set as a humble Horticulturalist... i can appreciate their are engineers who can probably fit it for me but at what kind of cost? 

 

Thanks again for your input  Im rather enjoying this forum  

[WotEver]

41 minutes ago, 1233jackb said:

how common is this in narrowboats? 

Very. 

41 minutes ago, 1233jackb said:

Do alot of people have set-ups like this?

Yes. 

41 minutes ago, 1233jackb said:

can you buy a boat with a set-up like this pre installed?

Yes. 

[Robbo]

44 minutes ago, 1233jackb said:

Wow i had no idea that they used so much diesel! - I presume thats on the basis of a fairly modern stove and not an older model say pre 2000 for example?   

A drip fed stove is fairly basic technology and probably hasn’t changed in many years, they are fairly efficient, but not pressure jet technology efficient.   The cost in running one is similar to a solid fuel stove for the same amount of output.  

Both solid and diesel stoves have plus and negative points.   I went for diesel as I don’t want the dust of the solid fuel, but a real fire is nice as well.   In the end you have to weigh up what’s best for you.  You can always supplement some of solid fuels negatives with a secondary diesel boiler.

[howardang]

12 hours ago, 1233jackb said:

Wow i had no idea that they used so much diesel! - I presume thats on the basis of a fairly modern stove and not an older model say pre 2000 for example? 

 

Im not against a solid fuel stove, at all, i have one here at home. I was just thinking about the mess they can make, So i though about exploring the option of a diesel stove. After reading that however i think my mind may be changed. However im sure its one of those things i need to experience first hand to decide on for sure. 

 

 

I have to agree here ^^

 

 

And i also agree here, Our Rayburn does taker alot of maintenance, sometimes from ourselves just opening the service hatch and getting in their with the vacuum cleaner - we live in a fairly dusty old house! And the spares are indeed expensive. 

 

Having gas for a instant hot water and heating i think is also an ideal situation with use of the stove to keep the boat warm via a circulated system. my next question is how common is this in narrowboats? Do alot of people have set-ups like this? and can you buy a boat with a set-up like this pre installed? - i know it sounds lazy however installing something like this myself is wayy beyond my skill set as a humble Horticulturalist... i can appreciate their are engineers who can probably fit it for me but at what kind of cost? 

 

Thanks again for your input  Im rather enjoying this forum  

I have had a quick glance through your postings and can't see any mention of where you intend to base your boat and how much cruising you want to do, bearing in mind that you mention that you are an horticulturist therefore presumably still working. Finding a suitable mooring for a permanent live aboard can often be more difficult that some of the "Ivory Towers" press articles sometimes suggest. Have you ever been on a boat say over the winter when you may not be able to access the nearest pump out station for instance. If you are looking, say, for somewhere withing striking distance of London suitable moorings are like hens teeth or very expensive.

 

Good luck in your search for a suitable boat.

 

Howard

[Tony Brooks]

12 hours ago, 1233jackb said:

Wow i had no idea that they used so much diesel! - I presume thats on the basis of a fairly modern stove and not an older model say pre 2000 for example? 

 

Im not against a solid fuel stove, at all, i have one here at home. I was just thinking about the mess they can make, So i though about exploring the option of a diesel stove. After reading that however i think my mind may be changed. However im sure its one of those things i need to experience first hand to decide on for sure. 

 

 

I have to agree here ^^

 

 

And i also agree here, Our Rayburn does taker alot of maintenance, sometimes from ourselves just opening the service hatch and getting in their with the vacuum cleaner - we live in a fairly dusty old house! And the spares are indeed expensive. 

 

Having gas for a instant hot water and heating i think is also an ideal situation with use of the stove to keep the boat warm via a circulated system. my next question is how common is this in narrowboats? Do alot of people have set-ups like this? and can you buy a boat with a set-up like this pre installed? - i know it sounds lazy however installing something like this myself is wayy beyond my skill set as a humble Horticulturalist... i can appreciate their are engineers who can probably fit it for me but at what kind of cost? 

 

Thanks again for your input  Im rather enjoying this forum  

 

If by circulated system you mean pumped rather than gravity circulated then it is far from ideal and could be more dangerous than gas on a boat if the pump failed unnoticed. Unless you are in a marina and on a shoreline electricity is at a premium so gravity circulation save the electrical demands of the pump. You could be looking at needing to provide between 24 and 48 Ah per day or even more.

 

I would also point out that the degree of chimney draw tends to be vital for "pot burner" appliances if they are to minimise carbon build up and provide a clean burn. many narrowboat installations can not have the optimum height flue at least when cruising.

Edited July 7, 2018 by Tony Brooks

[1233jackb]

5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

If by circulated system you mean pumped rather than gravity circulated then it is far from ideal and could be more dangerous than gas on a boat if the pump failed unnoticed. Unless you are in a marina and on a shoreline electricity is at a premium so gravity circulation save the electrical demands of the pump. You could be looking at needing to provide between 24 and 48 Ah per day or even more.

 

I would also point out that the degree of chimney draw tends to be vital for "pot burner" appliances if they are to minimise carbon build up and provide a clean burn. many narrowboat installations can not have the optimum height flue at least when cruising.

 

Well im not sure haha! So after reading that i suppose a gravity fed system would be preferable. I understand that static water in the pipes (Should the pump fail, the water can be explosive from the pressure build up)  How do you mean by "pot burning?" appliances, is that Diesel stoves or solid fuel? 

[Tony Brooks]

19 minutes ago, 1233jackb said:

 

Well im not sure haha! So after reading that i suppose a gravity fed system would be preferable. I understand that static water in the pipes (Should the pump fail, the water can be explosive from the pressure build up)  How do you mean by "pot burning?" appliances, is that Diesel stoves or solid fuel? 

Most diesel "stoves" that do not sound like a jet engine so we are talking Bubble and judging from the oil fuel control valve diesel Agas and such like burn the fuel in what looks a bit like a fancy baked bean can with all sorts of air inlet holes in various parts of it. There are no moving parts apart from the float in the fuel control valve so they work without the need for electricity , which seem ideal at first but as I said take notice of the minimum flue length recommend. unless you are happy to have to clean the pot and holes from  carbon very frequently.

[1233jackb]

On 06/07/2018 at 22:09, WotEver said:

Very. 

Yes. 

Yes. 

Wow, i didnt realise how many times i had asked the same kinda question ?

On 07/07/2018 at 09:49, howardang said:

I have had a quick glance through your postings and can't see any mention of where you intend to base your boat and how much cruising you want to do, bearing in mind that you mention that you are an horticulturist therefore presumably still working. Finding a suitable mooring for a permanent live aboard can often be more difficult that some of the "Ivory Towers" press articles sometimes suggest. Have you ever been on a boat say over the winter when you may not be able to access the nearest pump out station for instance. If you are looking, say, for somewhere withing striking distance of London suitable moorings are like hens teeth or very expensive.

 

Good luck in your search for a suitable boat.

 

Howard

 

Hello, Yea i am indeed still working. And i would need to base my boat somewhere in a marina. I live in the West Midlands and my local marinas are places like Alvechurch, Droitwich and Hanbury. Im probably missing one, but thats the area i live in. Droitwich is my local and easiest to get to, However i know its fairly new, i remember it being built. So going of that basis i would imagine its quite expensive but i understand it offers some quite flashy facilities. 

 

I would like to go cruising in the majority of my spare time, so were talking weekends away from my mooring, and just an occasional late night cruise until dusk to my local canal side pub i imagine with some friends. Believe me i have NO INTENTION what so ever to go anywhere near London. Im a country boy, i cant stand city's, their too busy for me