Survey on a new boat....

[ditchcrawler]

18 hours ago, 70liveaboard said:

If it was my new boat, I would say no to a survey. Its a little like buying a new car and running it around the corner to a local garage/testing centre and having them do an MOT on it.

 

But everyone is different and if you feel you need to survey it for some sort of peace of mind, then do it. But if you do feel that, then why did you pick that builder ?

How about if the new car was built by a chap on the canal bank to his own design including all the systems in it?

 

[MtB]

6 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

How about if the new car was built by a chap on the canal bank to his own design including all the systems in it?

 

 

Very well put. Have a Big Phat Greenie!

[Alan de Enfield]

11 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

How about if the new car was built by a chap on the canal bank to his own design including all the systems in it?

 

Very true (and greenied) but in this case the OP states :

 

"If I buy a new boat (i.e. already built but never sailed, not bespoke) from a named company (rather than first time individual). should I get a survey?" 

[MtB]

9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Very true (and greenied) but in this case the OP states :

 

"If I buy a new boat (i.e. already built but never sailed, not bespoke) from a named company (rather than first time individual). should I get a survey?" 

 

The big difference being that 'named companies' are still cottage industries making up designs and building the things with no independent supervision as they go, and in minuscule quantities compared to the motor industry.

 

The closest there is to supervision of the design and build is if the client employs an independent surveyor to oversee the build and make sure it is being done correctly. Now isn't that where we came in, in the first place??!

Edited June 17, 2018 by Mike the Boilerman
spellin'

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

The big difference being that 'named companies' are still cottage industries making up designs and building the things with no independent supervision as they go

All very true, and either the risk, or benefit of dealing with small volume boat builders (depending on your view)

 

Certainly 'volume' manufacturers (Colecraft, etc etc) should have built sufficient boats to have ironed out the worst of the problems.

As I suggested early in the thread (post #2) get a guarantee / warranty period then at least any issue you subsequently find can be fixed, or be prepared to use the law.

Edited June 17, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[70liveaboard]

3 hours ago, ditchcrawler said:

How about if the new car was built by a chap on the canal bank to his own design including all the systems in it?

 

It said in the post it was a named builder, I assume a boat building business.

 

Plus with the RCD it should come with a rack of paperwork, inc guarantees, corgi gas cert, engine details and so on, also believe it, or believe it not, a handbook.. Not sure if that still applies now, I would think it does, mainly to go over the safety points, gas cut off etc.

 

But like I say, the decision is upto the buyer, I would have gone in from the start with a certain knowledge of who was building it, prior to ordering.

Edited June 17, 2018 by 70liveaboard

[NealSmith100]

Thanks all - it was hypothetical in the sense that while i had a specific builder in mind I had not bought or committed to anything as of yet, 

[Alan de Enfield]

20 hours ago, 70liveaboard said:

It said in the post it was a named builder, I assume a boat building business.

 

Plus with the RCD it should come with a rack of paperwork, inc guarantees, corgi gas cert, engine details and so on, also believe it, or believe it not, a handbook.. Not sure if that still applies now, I would think it does, mainly to go over the safety points, gas cut off etc.

 

But like I say, the decision is upto the buyer, I would have gone in from the start with a certain knowledge of who was building it, prior to ordering.

The RCD still requires a manual which contains all of the necessary safety information, schematics of the water, 12v, 220v, Fuel, and gas systems.

 

Typical manual index :

 

CONTENTS:
1. INTRODUCTION....................................................................................................................................... 2
2. CHARACTERISTICS ................................................................................................................................ 4
2.1. THE BOAT’S IDENTITY SHEET................................................................................................................ 4
2.2. DIMENSIONS ......................................................................................................................................... 4
2.3. LOAD.................................................................................................................................................... 5
2.4. SAILS AND RIGGING .............................................................................................................................. 7
3. SAFETY ..................................................................................................................................................... 11
3.1. FIRE .................................................................................................................................................... 11
3.2. VISIBILITY .......................................................................................................................................... 13
3.3. STABILITY, RISK OF FLOODING............................................................................................................ 13
3.4. PREVENTION OF FALLING OVERBOARD ............................................................................................... 14
3.5. LIFE RAFT (NOT SUPPLIED).................................................................................................................. 14
4. EQUIPMENT ............................................................................................................................................ 15
4.1. ENGINE ............................................................................................................................................... 15
4.2. STEERING SYSTEM .............................................................................................................................. 17
4.3. ELECTRICAL SYSTEM.......................................................................................................................... 18
4.4. GAS SYSTEM....................................................................................................................................... 23
4.5. FRESHWATER AND BLACK WATER TANKS ........................................................................................... 24
4.6. PUMPS, SEACOCKS AND SKIN FITTINGS ............................................................................................... 26
5. ANCHORING, MOORING AND TOWING.......................................................................................... 28
6. HAULING OUT AND TRANSPORTATION ........................................................................................ 29
7. SNSM.......................................................................................................................................................... 30
8. CHARTER FOR THE SEA AND INLAND WATERWAYS ............................................................... 31

 

Example : 

Pumps Seacocks & Skin Fittings

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

3 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The RCD still requires a manual which contains all of the necessary safety information, schematics of the water, 12v, 220v, Fuel, and gas systems.

 

Typical manual index :

 

CONTENTS:
1. INTRODUCTION....................................................................................................................................... 2
2. CHARACTERISTICS ................................................................................................................................ 4
2.1. THE BOAT’S IDENTITY SHEET................................................................................................................ 4
2.2. DIMENSIONS ......................................................................................................................................... 4
2.3. LOAD.................................................................................................................................................... 5
2.4. SAILS AND RIGGING .............................................................................................................................. 7
3. SAFETY ..................................................................................................................................................... 11
3.1. FIRE .................................................................................................................................................... 11
3.2. VISIBILITY .......................................................................................................................................... 13
3.3. STABILITY, RISK OF FLOODING............................................................................................................ 13
3.4. PREVENTION OF FALLING OVERBOARD ............................................................................................... 14
3.5. LIFE RAFT (NOT SUPPLIED).................................................................................................................. 14
4. EQUIPMENT ............................................................................................................................................ 15
4.1. ENGINE ............................................................................................................................................... 15
4.2. STEERING SYSTEM .............................................................................................................................. 17
4.3. ELECTRICAL SYSTEM.......................................................................................................................... 18
4.4. GAS SYSTEM....................................................................................................................................... 23
4.5. FRESHWATER AND BLACK WATER TANKS ........................................................................................... 24
4.6. PUMPS, SEACOCKS AND SKIN FITTINGS ............................................................................................... 26
5. ANCHORING, MOORING AND TOWING.......................................................................................... 28
6. HAULING OUT AND TRANSPORTATION ........................................................................................ 29
7. SNSM.......................................................................................................................................................... 30
8. CHARTER FOR THE SEA AND INLAND WATERWAYS ............................................................... 31

 

Example : 

Pumps Seacocks & Skin Fittings

 

 

 

 

All this waffle is of course 'self-certified', so there is no actual scrutiny by anyone in authority of the boat this guff purports to describe, or verification it is correct and not a total fairy story. 

Edited June 18, 2018 by Mike the Boilerman

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

All this waffle is of course 'self-certified', so there is no actual scrutiny of the boat by anyone in authority this purports to describe, or verification it is correct and not a total fairy story. 

Are you not referring to the minority of boats that are DIY built and self-certified ?

The majority of boats, and those built and sold as part of a business should have independent assessments by a 'Notified Body'*. Even Category D boats need to have an Engine assessment, and noise assessment by a Notified Body 

If a boat is re-engined or has major structural changes (even a NB) then it must have a Post Construction Assessment by a Notified Body

 

* Notified Body
An organization, appointed by Government to undertake the mandatory third party RCD assessments as required by the RCD.

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The majority of boats, and those built and sold as part of a business should have independent assessments by a 'Notified Body'*.

 

Should? Or do?

 

Any why only 'the majority'? Which ones are exempted?

[70liveaboard]

21 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

All this waffle is of course 'self-certified', so there is no actual scrutiny by anyone in authority of the boat this guff purports to describe, or verification it is correct and not a total fairy story. 

This is why you should pick your builder well.

 

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Are you not referring to the minority of boats that are DIY built and self-certified ?

The majority of boats, and those built and sold as part of a business should have independent assessments by a 'Notified Body'*. Even Category D boats need to have an Engine assessment, and noise assessment by a Notified Body 

If a boat is re-engined or has major structural changes (even a NB) then it must have a Post Construction Assessment by a Notified Body

 

* Notified Body
An organization, appointed by Government to undertake the mandatory third party RCD assessments as required by the RCD.

No, its self certification. But most larger builders will have all it takes to do this properly. Putting a CE mark on an item follows the builder whether they remain trading or not. Certainly for the first years upto the first BSS test, which is 4 or 5yrs I believe.

 

Edit: Also there is a 2" thick reg book to adhere too. Not as easy to nip around as people think and if you do 'blag it' and get caught, its a criminal offence (I believe).

Edited June 18, 2018 by 70liveaboard
added bits

[blackrose]

On 15/06/2018 at 13:46, Alan de Enfield said:

 

As long as you are buying from a business 'selling the boat in the course of their business' (and not from a broker) then you have all the legal protection from the "Consumer Rights Act 2015"

 

The Act requires goods to be as described, of satisfactory quality and fit for purpose.

Fit for purpose means both for their everyday purpose, and also any specific purpose that you agreed with the seller (for example, if you specifically asked for a printer that would be compatible with your computer, or wall tiles that would be suitable for use in a bathroom). 

Goods sold must also match any sample you were shown in store, or any description in a brochure.

The only time goods are not required to be satisfactory quality is if a defect or issue was specifically drawn to your attention before you bought them.

So, if you examined the goods and had the opportunity to notice (but failed to do so) that they were not of satisfactory quality; or, in the case of sale by sample, if the lack of quality would have been obvious on a reasonable examination of the sample, you would not be able to argue that the goods were not of satisfactory quality.

 

If you engage a surveyor and he fails to note any 'failings' in the boat then you have abrogated your rights as a buyer as you 'had the chance to find the faults', you would then need to sue the Surveyor.

 

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-rights-act

So does that mean if you examine an item in a shop but don't notice a fault then you no longer have statutory rights under the Consumer Rights Act because you were given the opportunity but failed to find the defect? That surprises me. I thought the only time goods are not required to be of satisfactory quality is if a defect or issue was specifically drawn to your attention before you bought it, as you said earlier? 

Edited June 19, 2018 by blackrose

[70liveaboard]

A surveyor will survey a boat and pass it similar to an MOT for a car. Provided its good at the time of the survey, it will pass. (that day).. Once your surveyor walks away after a survey, he's gone. As said, you would have to sue if he missed something that has a real adverse effect on the vessel or its occupants. 

An RCD from the builder (new), will cover the boat for the first 5yrs of use, that is to say, provided the boat is kept without being altered (mainly points to safety things like, gas, engine, fuel, build, 12v/240v if any, etc) its a guarantee of sorts. General (item) guarantees will run their course and obviously drop out as the time is met, but they will all be with the boat from new. How all these items were fitted/installed is covered via the RCD.

 

The steel shell however, is not brought under the RCD in a way you would expect. The way the boat was built i.e. welded, tested, conform to flooding regs etc, will be covered. The steel on the other hand, lasting a period of time, will not be covered, too many variables. So it is worth asking for a steel guarantee from the builder. To be fair the builder should give at least 3yrs for steel/plate/section etc. If you pay for special hull covering that may help too (epoxy materials etc) and prolong any guarantee given. But the paint finish will more or less, never have a guarantee. That is the reason most steel is traceable, all builders in the UK use steel that will be quality checked. This nonsense regards lower quality steel, used in some underhand way, certainly for the past 20-30yrs is just tittle tattle. If the builder uses thin steel, he'll tell you, that is your steel spec (know what your buying). He will also tell you if it is traceable, which in 99% of cases it will be in the UK, even if its foreign steel, which more or less is all there is now.

This is why an RCD, if your buying new of course, is the route I would stay with, unless you think the builder is breaking any laws regards the boat and its safety. Then of course, you wouldn't use that builder. An RCD is far more wide ranging than a survey. That is one of the reasons it was introduced, to bring us in-line with Europe (CE marking etc).

Its just a matter of asking prior to ordering what comes with the boat paper wise after i.e. shell guarantee, RCD, general guarantees and so on.

 

Just to carry on from this:

If the builder does give a guarantee on steel, chances are he'll want you to dry dock/black/change anodes etc, within the RCD period. After that period, its up to you anyway.

 

Edited June 19, 2018 by 70liveaboard

[Alan de Enfield]

28 minutes ago, 70liveaboard said:

A surveyor will survey a boat and pass it similar to an MOT for a car. 

 

I must strongly disagree with this statement. It is extremely misleading to boat buying 'newbies'.

 

A boat survey is nothing like a car MOT, there is no 'pass' and no 'fail'.

The survey simply lists the condition of the boat and its equipment and it is up to the buyer to decide if the purchase price is acceptable in light of the reported condition of the boat.

 

Example :

A car MOT specifies the car tyres must have X amount of tread, if they have this (or more) the car passes its MOT, if it has less than X, it fails. It cannot be driven away from the garage and it cannot be licenced.

 

A surveyor finds a small pin-hole leak in the bottom of a boat that is weeping water inside the hull. The boat is slowly sinking. He reports on this, but NOTHING stops the boat from being sold / purchased or even licenced.

[70liveaboard]

10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I must strongly disagree with this statement. It is extremely misleading to boat buying 'newbies'.

 

A boat survey is nothing like a car MOT, there is no 'pass' and no 'fail'.

The survey simply lists the condition of the boat and its equipment and it is up to the buyer to decide if the purchase price is acceptable in light of the reported condition of the boat.

 

Example :

A car MOT specifies the car tyres must have X amount of tread, if they have this (or more) the car passes its MOT, if it has less than X, it fails. It cannot be driven away from the garage and it cannot be licenced.

 

A surveyor finds a small pin-hole leak in the bottom of a boat that is weeping water inside the hull. The boat is slowly sinking. He reports on this, but NOTHING stops the boat from being sold / purchased or even licenced.

I was really talking about when it comes to renewing your BSS, not so much an independent survey for a boat, that is to be bought second hand. That is understandably different.

Even in that case, a surveyor surveying a boat (new boat) will not be able to cover what a RCD covers.

Edited June 19, 2018 by 70liveaboard

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, 70liveaboard said:

I was really talking about when it comes to renewing your BSS, not so much an independent survey for a boat, that is to be bought second hand. That is understandably different.

Even in that case, a surveyor surveying a boat (new boat) will not be able to cover what a RCD covers.

That being the case, then you are correct, there is a 'pass' or 'fail'.

 

I was obviously basing my reply on the fact that the whole thread is about 'buying a new boat - should I have a survey ?'

[70liveaboard]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

That being the case, then you are correct, there is a 'pass' or 'fail'.

 

I was obviously basing my reply on the fact that the whole thread is about 'buying a new boat - should I have a survey ?'

Point taken.

 

But with a new boat RCD is beyond anything a surveyor could, or would, check.

Edited June 19, 2018 by 70liveaboard

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, 70liveaboard said:

To be fair the builder should give at least 3yrs for steel/plate/section etc. 

 

Just to carry on from this:

If the builder does give a guarantee on steel, chances are he'll want you to dry dock/black/change anodes etc, within the RCD period. After that period, its up to you anyway.

 

What is an RCD period. I would expect the steel used for a 205 lt drum not to fail in 3 years

[70liveaboard]

5 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

What is an RCD period. I would expect the steel used for a 205 lt drum not to fail in 3 years

Yeah I know. But its just one of those odd things.. Builders historically have not liked to guarantee steel. That would pass back to the supplier of the steel itself (traceable back to the mill), if there was to be a bad failure. Although we don't hear of any.

5yrs RCD period I think.

Edited June 19, 2018 by 70liveaboard

[Alan de Enfield]

26 minutes ago, 70liveaboard said:

Yeah I know. But its just one of those odd things.. Builders historically have not liked to guarantee steel. That would pass back to the supplier of the steel itself (traceable back to the mill), if there was to be a bad failure. Although we don't hear of any.

5yrs RCD period I think.

The RCD does not have an 'expiry period', in effect it is simply valid at the time the vessel was completed, (much like the car MOT is only valid at the time of test), the RCD can be invalidated the following day by changing the engine, removing fire extinguishers etc etc.

 

I think that you are maybe getting confused with the derogation allowing self-build to be non-RCD complaint as long as they do not sell the boat within 5 years of "first putting it on the market".

This derogation is to allow sufficient time for it to blow-up, burst into flames, sink or kill its builder without affecting any innocent purchaser. "If it hasn't blown up in 5 years, its likely to be fairly safe"

 

The BSS accepts that an RCD is equivalent to a BSS so allows 4 years before it needs a BSS test.

From the BSS website :

 

Most navigation authorities will accept a boat builders Declaration of Conformity or DoC (this must be provided with all new boats sold in Europe) in lieu of a BSS certificate. For part-built boats the Annex IIIa DoC will be accept for the first year. With complete boats, the Annex XV will be accepted for the first four years.

 

After that a BSS certificate may be required to support an application to use the waterway.

Self-built boats without a DoC will most likely need a BSS Certification from day one to support a licence/registration/mooring application.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[ditchcrawler]

At one time builders were selling boats with the RCD and no BSS certificate, 4 years later some failed, Lots of builders now sell a new boat with both as the BSS is interdependent. I have not heard of any builder that has their boat interdependently assessed to ensure it complies with the RCD requirements, I would have thought to do that on a completed vessel would be quite involved.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

At one time builders were selling boats with the RCD and no BSS certificate, 4 years later some failed, Lots of builders now sell a new boat with both as the BSS is interdependent. I have not heard of any builder that has their boat interdependently assessed to ensure it complies with the RCD requirements, I would have thought to do that on a completed vessel would be quite involved.

 

The idea is that the boat build is assessed during each stage of manufacture (like the building inspector when you build a new house), these 'inspectors are called a 'Notified Body' *

There is also a requirement for a 'post construction assessment' by a notified body if any major changes (including a re-engine) is involved.

 

Category D boats are exempted from much of this, as are (obviously) self builds that are not sold within 5 years of being 'put on the market, but the amended RCD in 2017 would include NBs that have 'major work' done to them / engines replaced.

 

 

* Notified Body
An organization, appointed by Government to undertake the mandatory third party RCD assessments as required by the RCD.

[Mike Todd]

14 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

At one time builders were selling boats with the RCD and no BSS certificate, 4 years later some failed, Lots of builders now sell a new boat with both as the BSS is interdependent. I have not heard of any builder that has their boat interdependently assessed to ensure it complies with the RCD requirements, I would have thought to do that on a completed vessel would be quite involved.

 

I believe that our builder (Stem to Stern) employs an independent surveyor to ensure that he complies with RCD. 

[70liveaboard]

16 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

I believe that our builder (Stem to Stern) employs an independent surveyor to ensure that he complies with RCD. 

But isn't that a little after the fact, plus he can't expect a surveyor to use anything but his word when it comes to the welding, wiring etc (if hidden) and so on. Any builder should know his work is compliant and to the regs. If he is not sure, he shouldn't really be doing it, in the first place.

The RCD helped educate builders into being more responsible for their product. This is why, when I read certain things about builders that I know of, it makes me wonder regards some buyers. Do they really know what they are buying. Once a boat is fitted, a surveyor will not un-fit it, to check.

 

Early on many builders got surveyors to act as consultants, as they went about building the first few after the RCD came in (during build). That way they overcame any problems that they may have not seen themselves. But that would be very costly for most buyers, although surveyors will offer that, if need be.

But once a builder got in-line with the RCD, you could be fairly sure that most, well certainly larger builders anyway, would stay within the regs. Its essentially as easy to build a right boat, as a wrong boat, for the builder.

 

 

40 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The RCD does not have an 'expiry period', in effect it is simply valid at the time the vessel was completed, (much like the car MOT is only valid at the time of test), the RCD can be invalidated the following day by changing the engine, removing fire extinguishers etc etc.

 

I think that you are maybe getting confused with the derogation allowing self-build to be non-RCD complaint as long as they do not sell the boat within 5 years of "first putting it on the market".

This derogation is to allow sufficient time for it to blow-up, burst into flames, sink or kill its builder without affecting any innocent purchaser. "If it hasn't blown up in 5 years, its likely to be fairly safe"

 

The BSS accepts that an RCD is equivalent to a BSS so allows 4 years before it needs a BSS test.

From the BSS website :

 

Most navigation authorities will accept a boat builders Declaration of Conformity or DoC (this must be provided with all new boats sold in Europe) in lieu of a BSS certificate. For part-built boats the Annex IIIa DoC will be accept for the first year. With complete boats, the Annex XV will be accepted for the first four years.

 

After that a BSS certificate may be required to support an application to use the waterway.

Self-built boats without a DoC will most likely need a BSS Certification from day one to support a licence/registration/mooring application.

Yes, your right in saying it (RCD) never runs out as such. But most boats are guaranteed for less than 5yrs, so if you have a 3yr one, it means little as the boat will go back to the builder should there be a problem that is covered by the RCD within that 5yr period. After 5yrs, that is not really the case.

The buyer/owner then has checks every period (BSS) required and repairs as needed.

 

This is why, if a builder goes out of business during that period, funds are put by for that reason, if the business was LTD. To cover boats upto the 5yr period. Sole traders, I'm not sure about. Its priority after government departments get their share.

Edited June 19, 2018 by 70liveaboard