Woodburner safety requirements

[egg]

Hey guys!

I am fitting a 5 kw multifuel burner in the corner of our narrowboat. We have already built a base and tiled the surrounding walls on a layer of mountboard, We have placed the stove at an angle in the front corner of the room and were all ready to fit the flue when we realised that one of the back corners of the stove is only 1 1/2 inches from the wall and we have been told that the minimum requirement for safety standards is 3 inches, I have tried to find verification of this on the BSS website but haven't managed. Can any of you wiley people advise me? I think we will have to move the stove which we don't really want to do as it means completely rebuilding our base and tiled sides. Oh well, you live and learn!

Thanks!

[John Orentas]

Hey guys!

I am fitting a 5 kw multifuel burner in the corner of our narrowboat. We have already built a base and tiled the surrounding walls on a layer of mountboard, We have placed the stove at an angle in the front corner of the room and were all ready to fit the flue when we realised that one of the back corners of the stove is only 1 1/2 inches from the wall and we have been told that the minimum requirement for safety standards is 3 inches, I have tried to find verification of this on the BSS website but haven't managed. Can any of you wiley people advise me? I think we will have to move the stove which we don't really want to do as it means completely rebuilding our base and tiled sides. Oh well, you live and learn!

Thanks!

 

 

Hi Egg.

 

I don't think there is any rigid standard for this sort of thing. In practise however though everyone rightly fits heat insulating materials on the hull and cabin sides the most important thing is not the standard of insulation of that medium or even the air gap stove to boat. The most significant thing to guard against is the radiated heat that passes across the gap.

 

It is most important to have a thermally reflective surface, tiles are good, I happen to have a sheet of polished stainless steel behind the stove and a decorative and functional polished brass backing mounted on the cabin side opposite the flu pipe. I am frequently amazed just how cool these guards remain even when the stove (a wood-burner is working flat out).

 

I would advise, install your stove and monitor it closely for a while in the most extreme conditions, if you can stand the back of your hand on things you have no problem.

Edited June 14, 2007 by John Orentas

[DHutch]

Yeah, our stove is mounted diagonally, and the nearest part is well under 3inchs, so its clearly not a issue with the BSS over that.

 

- Obvously its a case of common sence, and we do have heatproof board behind, and thats covered with brass sheet, which as john says, remains stupidly cool considering the close proxcimity of 5kw's of glowing squiral power.

 

 

 

Daniel

[Supermalc]

I was assisting a BSS inspector to examine a friends boat last week, and while there asked him to have a quick look at mine, as I've fitted the stove since last time.

 

Because it is possible to close the outer door, it requires vents top and bottom....

 

I've sheeted around, behind and below with steel sheet, and all that is satisfactory, only he said I should have a small lip around the steel in the front, just to catch any hot embers that should accidently roll out.

 

 

I do now have a bit of carpet, so basic common sense.

[Ernie]

I have just fitted a 5kw multi fuel stove and lit it last night for the first time.

 

Mine is also mounted at an angle with the rear left hand corner about an inch from the wall.

 

The walls behind the stove are tiled with what appear to be ordinary ceramic tiles. The tiles that are closest to the stove are very hot, too hot to touch. One of the tiles has just dropped off. The tiles are glued onto ordinary half inch ply. All of this has happened with the fire being on at a very low level !!!

 

Has any one got any ideas as to what I can put between the stove and the tiles to stop the heat getting through ??

 

See photo at bottom of web page: http://www.erniesplace.com/CanalBoating/Ju..._June_12_07.htm

[nigel carton]

a couple of pictures I posted on here a while back showing the effects of poor heat insulation, or in this case none at all!

 

 

 

[Ernie]

I have just spoken to a boat builer and he recommended using Asbestolux sheet between the stove and the wood as a heat shield. Sounds like it will work but will not look very nice !!!

[bottle]

I have just spoken to a boat builer and he recommended using Asbestolux sheet between the stove and the wood as a heat shield. Sounds like it will work but will not look very nice !!!

 

Ernie

 

If you have the space you can put tiles or metal sheet on the Asbetolux

[Ernie]

Ernie

 

If you have the space you can put tiles or metal sheet on the Asbetolux

Thanks Keith,

 

I have just spoken to a builders merchant and he thinks it may be possible to glue tiles onto the asbestolux but I think I am going to have heat problems with the glue for the tiles as the tiles will be very hot.

 

The asbestolux is only a quarter of an inch thick so I will have space for both the asbestolux and the tiles.

 

Things are never simple - are they????

[stuart]

Does your fire have fire bricks inside? These help to redirect the heat out the front. I doubt that the fire in the pictures above has fire bricks so the heat is radiated 360 degrees.

[nigel carton]

Does your fire have fire bricks inside? These help to redirect the heat out the front. I doubt that the fire in the pictures above has fire bricks so the heat is radiated 360 degrees.

 

Your quite right, it didn't have fire bricks lining the inside. I think a lot of pot bellyied stoves are like this.

[Lt Cmdr Willi Gofarr ( rtd]

Your quite right, it didn't have fire bricks lining the inside. I think a lot of pot bellyied stoves are like this.

 

A very useful tip is when you are mounting the fireproof backing board space it away from the wall with some nuts behind the board

this will reduce ANY direct heat transfer to your lining

Having had a wood lining start to smoulder through an asbestolux borad years ago I always do this when refitting a stove

Bit fiddly to do BUT it may save your life

Chris

 

Edited because I meant to post this as Baldock not my alter ego ! opps

Edited June 15, 2007 by Lt Cmdr Willi Gofarr ( rtd

[dor]

The surveyor who is doing my RCD tells me that there is no specific gap written into the standard and in cases like that then the manufacturer's installation instructions should be followed.

 

For a squirrel, that means a minimum gap of 150 mm to sides and rear with an area extending for 500 mm in front. He did suggest that to reduce the amount of floor space taken up, the hearth could extend for 150 mm with a removable section to cover the rest which could be lifted when the stove isn't lit.

 

OK, so that is what he would like to see. I pointed out that I didn't think there was a boat on the water that met those criteria, including plenty of new builds which clearly have their CE mark. He grudgingly accepted that "common or best practice" would be acceptable, but didn't want to see less than 75 mm between the corners and the cabin side.

 

I also asked what the situation is at a Crick stall that was selling several different types of stoves. He said that if you asked the stove manufacturers where to put the stove in a boat they would say "in the middle of the boat" and still not be happy about it. So clearly there is a conflict between what the manufacturers recommend, which will no doubt be erring on the side of caution, and what is practical. For a diagonally mounted stove in a corner, I think 3" is more than enough at the corners provided you have some thermally resistant surface. I intend having 20mm of granite which should be enough.

 

What you have to guard against is going out, leaving the damper more open than you intended and the stove getting far hotter than you would normally have.

[King Canute]

A very useful tip is when you are mounting the fireproof backing board space it away from the wall with some nuts behind the board

this will reduce ANY direct heat transfer to your lining

Having had a wood lining start to smoulder through an asbestolux borad years ago I always do this when refitting a stove

Bit fiddly to do BUT it may save your life

Chris

 

Edited because I meant to post this as Baldock not my alter ego ! opps

 

Maybe there should be a separate forum purely for alter egos to discuss matters of import.

 

Back on topic though. Yes I too have removed insulating material to reveal charred wood behind (scary!). Since then I've always spaced the insulator from the wall.

[Ernie]

Does your fire have fire bricks inside? These help to redirect the heat out the front. I doubt that the fire in the pictures above has fire bricks so the heat is radiated 360 degrees.

Not sure who the question is directed at? My fire is brand new and has three fire bricks inside, one agains each side.

 

A very useful tip is when you are mounting the fireproof backing board space it away from the wall with some nuts behind the board

this will reduce ANY direct heat transfer to your lining

Having had a wood lining start to smoulder through an asbestolux borad years ago I always do this when refitting a stove

Bit fiddly to do BUT it may save your life

Chris

 

Edited because I meant to post this as Baldock not my alter ego ! opps

Thanks, I will do this. Hope to get the Asbestolux board tomorrow and fit over the weekend.

[John Orentas]

I have just spoken to a builders merchant and he thinks it may be possible to glue tiles onto the asbestolux but I think I am going to have heat problems with the glue for the tiles as the tiles will be very hot.

 

The asbestolux is only a quarter of an inch thick so I will have space for both the asbestolux and the tiles.

 

 

 

Equally important to select tiles that are reflective in colour and texture. Not sure that the internal fire bricks would make much difference at all.

Edited June 15, 2007 by John Orentas

[magnetman]

'Pot belly' stoves are terrifically dangerous in narrowboats above about 25ft because in order to get sensible heat out of them they need to be run hotter than they are designed to i've heard of them glowing red. No firebricks and a tiny firebox they are deadly if overloaded. I ran a villager heron about 2 inches from uninsulated pine for 6 winters no problems it had firebricks & good kw output.

[egg]

Thanks for all your responses, for anybody else wondering about the same thing, here is a reply I got to the same question I asked a memeber of the Boating Safety Standards.

 

Dear Eryka

 

Many thanks for your query. As yet, there are no general standards or codes of practice for the installation of solid fuel stove on boats. In the absence of such national or international guidance, it is important that you follow the advice of the stove manufacturer, not just for installation, but so too concerning operation, fuel choice and fuel storage. These matters can affect the heat output and the potential for causing carbon monoxide, which is a deadly toxin.

 

Solid fuel stoves provide a cosy, dry heat and there are many in use of boats presenting no risks or hazards. However, solid fuel stoves are significant cause of fire on boats. Fire incidents have arisen out of

 

> faulty installation, when vital parts of stove have fallen away

 

> radiated heat from the stove setting fire to nearby combustible materials such as wood frames and panelling

 

> poorly insulated flues setting fire to the cabin roof

 

> fabrics being left too close to the hot parts of the stove installation

 

> embers and coals falling from stove when the door was left open

 

> fuels being stored too close to the stove

 

> fuel oil falling onto the hot stove body

 

> stray flammable gas or petrol vapours being ignited by a stove in use.

 

That is why we believe it is important to follow the manufacturer’s advice.

 

We are anticipating work leading to the development of standards to begin soon at one leading UK authority, but even so, we do not expect any codes to be published for some time.

[AlanH]

'Pot belly' stoves are terrifically dangerous in narrowboats above about 25ft because in order to get sensible heat out of them they need to be run hotter than they are designed to i've heard of them glowing red. No firebricks and a tiny firebox they are deadly if overloaded. I ran a villager heron about 2 inches from uninsulated pine for 6 winters no problems it had firebricks & good kw output.

 

 

I'd agree with that plus the pot belly stove that we had in our boat was vitually uncontrollable. It was vitually impossible to shut it down and it often glowed red hot. It never burned the wood through the tiled surround though but the boat was often uncomforably hot and it wouldn't stay in all night. I've now replaced it with a Torgem to which I've added a couple of extra firebrick cheeks in order to reduce the volume inside. The Torgem is only a couple of inches from the surround but it doesn't come close to overheating the surround even when run wide open.

[dor]

it is important that you follow the advice of the stove manufacturer

 

The problem with this is that most manufacturers say you must leave 150mm (6") clear between the stove and the wall. This is impractical in many boat installations. Many stoves are fitted into a corner - if the distance between the corners of the stove and the lining is 150mm, the stove would be almost in the middle of the boat.

 

If the stove side or back was parallel to the lining I agree that a good gap is necessary, but when it is only the corners, I would think that 50 - 75 mm would be plenty. Looking at the boats at Crick, it would appear that the majority of the boat builders agree, and presumably they all meet the RCD requirements.

[Supermalc]

I'm really really sorry, but it seems to me, the safety requirement for any solid fuel stove, nowmatter where it is situated, in a boat, car, aeroplane etc. is that when it is running flat out, i.e. with the maximum air draught and filled with fuel, it should not be close enough to anything to set fire to it.

[Barry]

A very useful tip is when you are mounting the fireproof backing board space it away from the wall with some nuts behind the board

this will reduce ANY direct heat transfer to your lining

Having had a wood lining start to smoulder through an asbestolux borad years ago I always do this when refitting a stove

Bit fiddly to do BUT it may save your life

Chris

 

Edited because I meant to post this as Baldock not my alter ego ! opps

 

Ha!!!

 

You've outed yourself you B****r - get back to the Fidaaay thread where you belong!!!

[Rob@BSSOffice]

... and presumably they all meet the RCD requirements.

 

There are no standards for the installation of stoves on small craft and the RCD does not cover such an installation and probably will not offer you protection. Supply of stoves might be covered by the General Product Safety Directive. I'm not sure how Trading Standards would view such enforcement.

 

Rob@BSS Office

[Ernie]

I have now completed the re-installation of my stove and have had it lit for two days, mostly to burn off the new paint, but also to test the effectiveness of the Asbestolux boarding.

 

The board to the left, along the side of the boat, is spaced off the wood behind it by a couple of inches. The board to the right is spaced off the wood panel by a quarter of an inch (I used a couple of thin strips of Asbestolux in stead of nuts for the spacers).

 

With the fire on for 12 hours, the wood panel behind the boarding on the right is only just warm. Likewise, the wood behind the sheet on the left is slightly warm.

 

All in all, I am very pleased with the result and will now sleep at nights when the fire is on. All I have to do now is tile over the boards as they are ugly. I tried fixing a tile to a test piece of the board and it adhered OK (I was worried that the tile cement may not stick).

 

The smallest gap between the stove and the board is now four inches and this is at the two rear corners of the stove.

 

The above may make more sense by looking at the photos ???

 

Some photos of the boarding at:

 

http://www.erniesplace.com/CanalBoating/Ju..._June_19_07.htm

 

and

 

http://www.erniesplace.com/CanalBoating/Ju..._June_20_07.htm

Edited June 22, 2007 by Ernie