New here and looking for opinions

[HYBRID]

So here is my first post, I don’t own a boat even though I would love one, the plan is to pay off the mortgage first and then who knows, depends on my employment status, which leads me to my next point.

 

I am considering a career change and want out of the rat race, to be honest I fancy working for myself. Whilst I am still currently employed I fancy trying my hand at getting into the Narrowboat scene.

 

The internet is my only window into the canal network as with no boat I only have access to a virtual canal. I went to Crick and had a look around and as a relative newcomer to the scene I could only look on with confusion, if I were buying a boat I would be unable to establish which manufacturer was good or bad, The boats I saw were all pretty much finished to a high standard (if not to my taste) and it would seem you need insider knowledge to weed out the undesirables, if they do actualy exist.

 

I wondered if a few of you old hands would like to shoot me down in flames or offer a few words of wisdom as to my idea.

 

I work well with my hands and believe I can fit out a Narrowboat I have reasonable taste and can recognise what is cosy and what is not. Here lies the dilemma, Do I buy an unfinished project, finish it and try to resell for a profit, or do I buy a new sailaway from a middle of the road manufacturer, fit it out and sell it as an unused boat, no waiting list, just pay for it and take it away.

 

Obviously and boat I fitted out wouldn’t appeal to the purist wanting a bespoke craft, but it seems to me there is gap in the market for a boat that is new and ready to use off the shelf.

 

The other question relates to style, it would appear that trad or semi trad boats command higher prices than cruisers? If not there certainly appears to be more demand, or is that just my own preferences showing?

 

My question to the forum is, if you were a potential boat buyer would you consider a new boat fitted out by me, which lets face it would be classed as a DIY fit out and how would you expect it to be priced. Or would you dismiss it as a waste of time?

 

Obviously there are other issues and costs to consider , but for the purpose of this post I am just concerning myself with how my product would be perceived by a potential purchaser.

 

As said, please post freely as I would like to hear all the comments whatever they are.

 

Thanks in advance

Edited June 7, 2007 by HYBRID

[carlt]

Welcome to the forum!

You say you don't own a narrow boat but do you have any experience of them? If not then my suggestion would be to buy second hand, cruise it about for a bit to find out what the boater's needs are, then take the old fitout apart piece by piece and learn how it was put together. Then refit it using what you've learnt to (hopefully) improve on the original.

 

If you take a shell, with no experience of boat building, you may end up with something you like, but probably not sellable.

[tired old pirate]

So here is my first post, I don’t own a boat even though I would love one, the plan is to pay off the mortgage first and then who knows, depends on my employment status, which leads me to my next point.

 

I am considering a career change and want out of the rat race, to be honest I fancy working for myself. Whilst I am still currently employed I fancy trying my hand at getting into the Narrowboat scene.

 

The internet is my only window into the canal network as with no boat I only have access to a virtual canal. I went to Crick and had a look around and as a relative newcomer to the scene I could only look on with confusion, if I were buying a boat I would be unable to establish which manufacturer was good or bad, The boats I saw were all pretty much finished to a high standard (if not to my tatse) and it would seem you need insider knowledge to weed out the undesirables, if they do actualy exist.

 

I wondered if a few of you old hands would like to shoot me down in flames or offer a few words of wisdom as to my idea.

 

I work well with my hands and believe I can fit out a Narrowboat I have reasonable taste and can recognise what is cosy and what is not. Here lies the dilemma, Do I buy an unfinished project, finish it and try to resell for a profit, or do I buy a new sailaway from a middle of the road manufacturer, fit it out and sell it as an unused boat, no waiting list, just pay for it and take it away.

 

Obviously and boat I fitted out wouldn’t appeal to the purist wanting a bespoke craft, but it seems to me there is gap in the market for a boat that is new and ready to use off the shelf.

 

The other question relates to style, it would appear that trad or semi trad boats command higher prices than cruisers? If not there certainly appears to be more demand, or is that just my own preferences showing?

 

My question to the forum is, if you were a potential boat buyer would you consider a new boat fitted out by me, which lets face it would be classed as a DIY fit out and how would you expect it to be priced. Or would you dismiss it as a waste of time?

 

Obviously there are other issues and costs to consider , but for the purpose of this post I am just concerning myself with how my product would be perceived by a potential purchaser.

 

As said, please post freely as I would like to hear all the comments whatever they are.

 

Thanks in advance

 

 

Hi Hybrid

Welcome, hello,hows it going etc.. Lots of advice coming your way I'm sure. I would advise you to spend as much time on boats, talking to people who have actually done fit outs and live on older boats, theres lots of pros and cons either way.

You would be welcome to come visit me and my girfriend, I've got a 25yr old refitted ex hire boat which I love and shes got a new liverpool boats sailaway which shes done herself.

 

I think there are some good unfinished bargains to be had as folk have to sell up and get out fast sometimes, bear in mind though why that is! Its very stressfull, expensive and downright hard to fit out boats unless you have unlimited funds/time, are a really good chippy with tools and contacts. I know of several boats which have changed hands twice as unfinished projects and the stress and culture shock have killed the relationships of the folk involved!

 

I prefer an older boat, refitted and replated, I just feel that the steel and hulls etc of the new boats wont stand the test of time well and an older boat has matured and is unlikely to do anything really unexpected. I would advise to look out for replated ex hire boats or pick an ex hire and replate it. Depends a lot on your budget and what you need the boat to do when i spose

 

Spending as much time around boats is a good move tho, go to a few big marinas, reccomend whilton and sawley and Crick down this way. Pm me if you want come down and drain us of any experience we might have left....

 

Good luck

[Gary Peacock]

Be very careful you're considering entering a market many others are wishing they could get out of!

 

The cheap and mid range is rapidly been taken over by cheap narrowboats built abroad. Entering into competition against them isn't economically viable in the U.K.

 

The expensive broad beam market is much more lucrative but of course you need a lot more investment before you can actually complete the project to sell it.

 

Anyway good look with the idea just don't get your fingers burned!

[StoneHenge]

There is a good 15 yar old replated ex hire boat for sale in our marina. I know the hire company, and although pretty well done out (for holidays), it would make an excellent project if you were going to get into that sort of thing.

 

I agree wtih TOP though, you need to spend lots of time on boats and talking to people who own, live and have fitted out boats too. It's the only way to get into the thick of it.

 

good luck with whatever you chose though, and welcome to the forum!

[tired old pirate]

There is a good 15 yar old replated ex hire boat for sale in our marina. I know the hire company, and although pretty well done out (for holidays), it would make an excellent project if you were going to get into that sort of thing.

 

I agree wtih TOP though, you need to spend lots of time on boats and talking to people who own, live and have fitted out boats too. It's the only way to get into the thick of it.

 

good luck with whatever you chose though, and welcome to the forum!

 

Oooh whats for sale stonehenge? (sorry I know)

Edited June 7, 2007 by tired old pirate

[Theo]

I have seen a few sailaways that have only ever been sailed away. One without an engine but with an outboard clamped to the stern.

 

They are recognisable by the grey colour, the rust building up around the scratches, leaves on the roof and weed around the waterline (Mind you my boat has weed around the waterline too!).

 

I wonder if one of these would be the cheapest way to get afloat but it would not be the first choice for someone inexperienced.

 

Nick

[tired old pirate]

I have seen a few sailaways that have only ever been sailed away. One without an engine but with an outboard clamped to the stern.

 

They are recognisable by the grey colour, the rust building up around the scratches, leaves on the roof and weed around the waterline (Mind you my boat has weed around the waterline too!).

 

I wonder if one of these would be the cheapest way to get afloat but it would not be the first choice for someone inexperienced.

 

Nick

 

Hehehe my girfriends boat looks like that! (dont tell her I said)

 

It looks like a good idea and seems like the cheapest option but should probably not be undertaken without shed loads of time and skills to put into it otherwise you seem to end up with an obvious DIY fitout and a compromise on your eventual quality. The regulations and boat safety are an issue too....

[Alastair]

Wot Carl said.

 

There is a lot to fitting out a boat, it isn't like joinery on a house. Electrics are quite different, as is gas. Not complex, just there is a lot to learn.

[stuart]

As I've been through the sailaway route to completed boat (liv. boats shell) - see my build blog for more details.

 

What I did find is that I thoroughly enjoyed it! It does take a long time though and theres lots of hidden extra costs during the build - the simpliest things can take an age to sort out and can cost silly money. For instance - just trying to find a suitable connector for a shower tray without loosing too much head height in the shower!

[Lesd]

but it seems to me there is gap in the market for a boat that is new and ready to use off the shelf.

 

 

My question to the forum is, if you were a potential boat buyer would you consider a new boat fitted out by me, which lets face it would be classed as a DIY fit out and how would you expect it to be priced. Or would you dismiss it as a waste of time?

 

 

 

Hi and welcome. Regarding the first point above; I dont think there is a ''gap in the market'' as you suggest, there are dozens of brand new fully completed boats looking for new ownders out there. Lots of new boat fitters seem to be trying this approach, I'm not sure how succesful there are at selling the craft for a suitable return.

 

Regrding your specific question about perspective buyers and answering from a personal perspective I'm afraid I would not consider buying a new boat from a fitter who had never completed a boat before. I guess some would consider it and if a suitable survey was carried out to ensure your work had been completed to the necessary standards then I guess someone would buy it but Im afraid a zero track record wouldput me off.

 

Good luck with whatever you decide to do !

 

Rgds

Les

[dccruiser]

A good investment would be to buy the latest copy of the narrowboat builders handbook through waterways world , and the latest bss manual from the bss office to cross reference from , this will give you an idea of what you are up against also information on tried and tested "standard" recognised fit-outs, which are obviously favourable if you are fitting commercially.

 

The "narrowboat register" Sawley marinas selling catalogue has layouts of all the boats for sale, if you phone them and register they will send it you on a regular basis , it is another good source of layouts and will give you a good idea of what sells and at what price.

 

Hope this helps

Rick

[Gary Peacock]

You also need to consider the legal aspects of becoming a boat builder, Trading Standards are showing more of an interest lately and you can do without getting into a fencing match with them.

[ChrisPy]

.... and of course if you are putting a boat on the market for the first time (may apply to completing someone else's sailaway that has never been put on the market before, other than as a sailaway or a shell) you will need to comply with the RCD, which is separate from the BSS and requires a lot of documentation. And if the sailaway doesn't have an Annex 3 certificate already you could find it an uphill struggle.

 

Gary is right, you can't just start refurbishing boats for a living without some formalities.

[carlt]

A good investment would be to buy the latest copy of the narrowboat builders handbook through waterways world , and the latest bss manual from the bss office to cross reference from , this will give you an idea of what you are up against also information on tried and tested "standard" recognised fit-outs, which are obviously favourable if you are fitting commercially.

 

The "narrowboat register" Sawley marinas selling catalogue has layouts of all the boats for sale, if you phone them and register they will send it you on a regular basis , it is another good source of layouts and will give you a good idea of what sells and at what price.

 

Hope this helps

Rick

The nbbh is a great book for skilled diy fitters fitting out their own boat and the BSS manual is essential but, if you're fitting out a shell, to a professional standard, and hope to sell it as such then you need to get professional training.

 

It's a lot easier refurbing a second hand boat and selling it with a bit of profit than it is to build a boat from a shell.

It's like buying an old house, doing it up and selling on for a profit, compared with sticking a spade in a bit of land and building a house from scratch.

[Lady Muck]

Our boat is a DIY fitout, we love it more than any of the commercial boat fitouts we see. It is incredibly well done.

 

BUT we know that the vendor barely broke even on this boat when he sold it to us. Our boat was about four years old at the time and in great condition. So I'm not sure how viable it is to make money unless you really know what you are doing, really know boats/ can find a source of cheap (but good quality) hulls or specialist skills.

 

It also took him weeks and weeks to write the RCD!

 

Our mate buys old hulls and refurbishes and refits them for a living, but he is a welder, knows boats inside out, has all the contacts. You can't get to this position overnight, it takes patience.

 

There are lots and lots of boats out there, there is no 'gap in the market'.

[John Orentas]

Hi Brid.

 

It is an awful lot to take on, the overriding problem will be one of cash flow you must expect that you will not have a saleable product for at least a year and given that you will need to spend probably £40,000 on materials if you include the shell. Presumably you may also need to eat now again so I think you will be up-against-it just a bit. The idea that you could build a boat to completion and then sell it is I think not realistic.

 

Your best hope would be to find someone who needs a boat fitting out who is prepared to employ you to do the job. A sail-away is certainly not for you, you will be giving away the most profitable part of the project. I would not consider an uncompleted project unless it is very, very cheap you will just be buying someone elses cock-ups.

 

Fitting out a boat is not brain surgery but it requires an awful lot of unconnected little skills, but most of all could you work alone for a year in all weathers.

 

Anyway keep writing and reading on here, let us know what skills you already have, something may come out of it. And let us know where you are.

Edited June 7, 2007 by John Orentas

[HYBRID]

Ok lots of useful info and leads for further research, thanks and by all means if you wish keep it coming.

To sum up so far,

 

As an individual I can buy and sell a boat and pretty much do as a please so long as the craft complies with the BSS and I declare any income tax obligations. If I declare this activity as a boat building refurbishment business then other regulations come into play.

 

I am about to commence a course in cabinet making in preparation for my own fit out (one day), this idea has sprung from these self build ambitions and my desire to move away from the field in which I currently work. I am not looking to exploit all you decent canal folk just looking for an opportunity and I stress I have never been a secondhand car dealer, so please don’t label me Arthur Dailey.

 

My existing skills - I can weld, refinish/paint to automotive standards, I used to build engines and gearboxes for race cars, I currently work in an automotive electrical environment so understand electrical circuits etc. I can do a bit of plumbing and if you want your garden landscaping I do that as well, but only part time.

 

Basically I love working with my hands, I never employ trades people unless it’s to do with gas, preferring to teach myself how to repair things. At work I get all the problems on my desk because my boss knows I love that kind of thing.

 

I once owned a day boat that I used to trailer to the Welsh coast, this was an old tub with a Mercruiser Stern Drive. It cost me a fortune to make reliable and nice. After 6 years it was in pretty good condition but, it turned into my mill stone, hanging firmly around my neck. It took ages to sell and still required regular maintenance whilst it was sitting on the trailer. I let it go for a big loss.

 

I think I will keep my eyes open and spend a bit (poss. quite a bit) of time surveying the market for that elusive boat, basically sound in condition but in need of T.L.C. sitting at its mooring awaiting its new owner. I would hope to cruise a little, improve it and sell it on, work my way up the ladder to what I would be happy keeping.

 

Some how that sounds more far fetched than my original idea!

 

I will have lots of other questions so expect me to be a pain in the bum for quite a while.

 

Oh and a thank you to Tired Old Pirate I would love to meet you and see your boat, and may contact you in the future, if you are ever cruising near Fradley Junction give me a shout and I’ll get the beers.

Thanks again

[g0n]

So here is my first post, I don’t own a boat even though I would love one, the plan is to pay off the mortgage first and then who knows, depends on my employment status, which leads me to my next point.

 

I am considering a career change and want out of the rat race, to be honest I fancy working for myself. Whilst I am still currently employed I fancy trying my hand at getting into the Narrowboat scene.

 

The internet is my only window into the canal network as with no boat I only have access to a virtual canal. I went to Crick and had a look around and as a relative newcomer to the scene I could only look on with confusion, if I were buying a boat I would be unable to establish which manufacturer was good or bad, The boats I saw were all pretty much finished to a high standard (if not to my taste) and it would seem you need insider knowledge to weed out the undesirables, if they do actualy exist.

 

I wondered if a few of you old hands would like to shoot me down in flames or offer a few words of wisdom as to my idea.

 

I work well with my hands and believe I can fit out a Narrowboat I have reasonable taste and can recognise what is cosy and what is not. Here lies the dilemma, Do I buy an unfinished project, finish it and try to resell for a profit, or do I buy a new sailaway from a middle of the road manufacturer, fit it out and sell it as an unused boat, no waiting list, just pay for it and take it away.

 

Obviously and boat I fitted out wouldn’t appeal to the purist wanting a bespoke craft, but it seems to me there is gap in the market for a boat that is new and ready to use off the shelf.

 

The other question relates to style, it would appear that trad or semi trad boats command higher prices than cruisers? If not there certainly appears to be more demand, or is that just my own preferences showing?

 

My question to the forum is, if you were a potential boat buyer would you consider a new boat fitted out by me, which lets face it would be classed as a DIY fit out and how would you expect it to be priced. Or would you dismiss it as a waste of time?

 

Obviously there are other issues and costs to consider , but for the purpose of this post I am just concerning myself with how my product would be perceived by a potential purchaser.

 

As said, please post freely as I would like to hear all the comments whatever they are.

 

Thanks in advance

 

I've thought a lot about doing this myself, but for my own use rather than to sell. Over the last ten years or so I've seen a lot of DIY fit outs that have been good to fantastic, and a lot that have been utterly dreadful. For what my comments are worth, I'd really strongly suggest spending a fair amount of time aboard boats before attempting a fit out. The worst DIY fit out boats I've seen have tended to be where someone has thought 'house' rather than 'boat'. I might be doing them a disservice but I've always had the feeling that these have mostly been done by fairly handy but not boaty people out to make a quick buck. Houses have an enormous amount of wasted space, are usually profligate with power use for heating, lighting etc. On a boat you have to be efficient with the limited space, and you can't assume shore power to be available.

 

There are lots of things that you will find out over time that might not immediately occur to someone new to boating: three that come to mind are

 

* water expansion vessels (a half pressure reservoir in your water system that absorbs the shock of the pump starting/stopping - stops that nasty knocking that can happen in water systems). Never having fitted a boat out fully, I didn't know anything about them until a couple of years ago, but IME they're often missed out in DIY fit outs.

 

* Galvanic isolators - put between the shore power line and the 240VAC system on a boat, they maintain the earthing whilst not accelerating corrosion of your hull.

 

* Calorifiers - when I first started boating, everyone I knew had inline gas or diesel water heaters. It was a couple of years before I encountered the idea of using heat from the engine to heat your domestic hot water. 'What a cunning idea!' I thought. Well, yes, except that depending on your circumstances it can be a royal PITA to have to run the engine for 45-90 minutes every single night so you can have a shower.

 

and thats just from my limited knowledge. No doubt some of the people around here who know a lot more about boat fit outs than I do could name a dozen more thingummys, doohickeys and gadgets that I've never heard of, that can make a massive difference.

 

Not wanting to rain on your parade, but I think /most/ people buying their first boats (leaving aside those of us changing boats), have hired for a while, know what they're looking for and looking at, and if your boat experience isn't at least as good as theirs, I think the chances are good you're going to miss something important. Lots of research needed!

[Gary Peacock]

As an individual I can buy and sell a boat and pretty much do as a please so long as the craft complies with the BSS and I declare any income tax obligations.

 

Unfortunately not the case.

 

The boat would have to be over 5 years old and sold as used. (This needs to be documented and supported.)

 

It gets a bit complex.

[HYBRID]

Garry,

 

Sorry I should have worded that better, I meant a secondhand boat.

 

Why over 5 years old surely a second hand boat is just that regardless of age?

 

Hybrid

[Gary Peacock]

Garry,

 

Sorry I should have worded that better, I meant a secondhand boat.

 

Why over 5 years old surely a second hand boat is just that regardless of age?

 

Hybrid

 

It's to do with the RCD, to be exempt the boat needs to be over 5 years old before it can enter the open market.

 

The theory is good but a lot of boats get into the market via the back door regardless of the law and T/S are now looking out for them.

 

The big problem is the responsibility would be on you to prove the boat/hull is older than 5 years and that is difficult to make matters worse the RCD was implemented 8 years ago so if you find a unlicensed boat without a annex 3 then you have to argue that it was built over 8 years ago to disguise the lack of paperwork.

 

All good fun except when if it gets all legal on you!

 

One line of thought says ignore it all but boat buyers can be fussy and that meens you might struggle to get the price you want.

[Lady Muck]

Marine mortgage companies won't lend if the vessel doesn't have all the right paperwork. We had to wait about six weeks while the vendor of the boat we were buying wrote the RCD! He was'nt aware of the need for one when he fitted it out! We were VERY lucky though, he is an intelligent man and did the fitout carefully following all reccommended standards. It could have easily been quite a different story though.

[HYBRID]

I think the info coming to light here is useful as from a virgin buyer’s perspective and coming from that perspective this is info I have not managed to unearth until posting on this forum.

 

So, in an attempt to sum up again.

 

• A finished second hand boat over 5 years old offered for sale will be accompanied by a valid or invalid Boat Safety Certificate and if on the water way, a valid licence.

 

• A finished secondhand boat under 5 years old offered for sale will be accompanied by a valid Boat Safety Certificate, Be CE marked and have the RCD (annex 3 ?) to prove conformity to the build regs.

 

• Anyone now self building or finishing a sailaway, wishing to sell the craft (at any time in its life?) will need to have completed complied with the RCD requirements, otherwise the craft is not considered up to the required legal standard.

 

• A finished boat of any age purchased with the correct legal documentation can be modified by the owner, but the modifications will need to pass the BSS test.

 

To answer some of the questions posted,

 

I am not a total Narrowboat Virgin and have had a couple of Holidays but both a long time ago. We hired a boat from Tewksbury and traveled up the Avon to Stratford and back in about 1981 I seem to recall at the time we wanted to do the Avon Ring? But a tunnel was undergoing repairs. A few years later we traveled the Trent & Mersey and the Caldon, based on that experience I decided the Avon was too big and not quaint like the canals.

 

I am hoping to make a booking later this year for a week away in October, I would like to hire a Trad boat to see how we get on with it, this is the style that appeals to me but I have questions over the small stern because the two of us might be isolated whilst cruising and then my wife’s ability to cope with the engine in the living space, which of course is my prime reason for preferring this type of craft. The holiday is going to be a tester if my wife likes it then we shall be giving serious consideration to buying a boat.

 

Oh and I live near Lichfield.

 

Hybrid

[Lady Muck]

Good luck with it all. I hope you enjoy it! We love it!