Washing Machine

[Johny London]

Just wanted to share with you all one little victory today

Finally fired up my washing machine. No leaks, nothing blew up. The machine ran well off the Victron inverter. It's a Bosch WFF2000 - I couldn't find details of its water/power consumption but it didn't seem to greedy according to my water gauge. I did have a problem with the power early on - the voltage to the inverter dropped to under 11v and a red light warned me of low voltage. This was with the engine idling, so I increased revs but to no avail - seemed for a moment as though I'd knackered the alternators output. But after switching off the machine, letting the batteries get a bit of charge then resuming the wash cycle at higher engine revs, things went ok. Just a question of learning how things like to be treated.

I wonder why the alternator output dropped right off then came back though. Hopefully just a normal safety feature but it should be good for 175a which is ... a lot. (couple kw?) Maybe trying to supply the machine and the hungry batteries was just too much for it - I'll start with higher revs and/or better charged batteries next time, now I know. Still good though!

Clean underwear

 

[jddevel]

Just thought I`d add something to this post. Some may be aware that I`m fitting out a sailaway which I`m installing a washing machine and am making the following modifications. Realizing that most, if not all, modern machines are cold fill only I see the hot water in the calorifier as being potentially wasted. So I`m fitting a Altercnic mixing valve with a adjustable  range of 30 to 65 degrees quite adequate for our purposes. It mixes cold and hot to achieve this. As most machines- certainly the one I have bought has a duel internal water valve serving both the main wash and the softener/rinse compartments I am adding an additional valve fitting it internally which will be connected using the cable supply to the current main wash compartment in the soap draw and also attaching the soap draw main wash pipe to this valve. This means that when the programmer calls for water to start the main wash it will be supplied with pre-heated water at what ever temperature my mixing valve provides. Then when on the rinse cycle it will as normal call for water solely from the cold supply. Hopefully this will save both on wasted hot water and the need for the machine to heat up the main wash water. Obviously it possibly prevents a pre-wash programme and will still need to heat up if on a hot wash cycle-which I might suggest is not regularly if really needed. 

[nicknorman]

The washing machine will take at least 2kw, probably more, when the wash cycle starts as it heats up the water. As mentioned, you can help this process by some means of filling with hot water for the first fill. Either a mixer valve, or even pouring a kettle or two of very hot water into the soap dispenser as it is filling.

i would strongly advise against leaving the engine at idle when you do this for a few reasons:

the alternator may not (almost certainly won't) make full output at idle. The alternator will be on its design limit in terms of output vs cooling airflow from the integral fan and will get VERY hot. The stretching load on the drive belt will be a maximum. The side load on the pulleys and their bearings will be a maximum.

Running the engine at say 1300rpm (for a modern 4 cylinder engine) will give you max output, plenty of cooling air, reduce the loads on belt, pulleys and bearings and not have the engine struggling to idle under a relatively heavy load.

Once the wash cycle is over (first draining of water) the heater will no longer kick in and you can return the rpm to idle if you really want to.

[Johny London]

Nicknorman - perfect answer, thanks. Today I was cruising at good revs and washed another load with no probs. As you say it's the initial water heating where the problem is - if only my batteries were strong!

My machine actually has a hot fill, but some years ago the machine started to gather water (either in the drum or the detergent compartments, can't remember) so I investigated and found the assembly that is the hot and cold fill valves had a slight leak on the hot, so I turned the external hot supply off and used it cold fill only.

If I could now find that valve assembly, get it, fit it, and run a hot pipe to the machine - well that would be a solution.

How is the water heated? As it comes in or while in the drum? From what you are saying - and from my observations - it seems the later?

[Chewbacka]

20 minutes ago, Johny London said:

Nicknorman - perfect answer, thanks. Today I was cruising at good revs and washed another load with no probs. As you say it's the initial water heating where the problem is - if only my batteries were strong!

My machine actually has a hot fill, but some years ago the machine started to gather water (either in the drum or the detergent compartments, can't remember) so I investigated and found the assembly that is the hot and cold fill valves had a slight leak on the hot, so I turned the external hot supply off and used it cold fill only.

If I could now find that valve assembly, get it, fit it, and run a hot pipe to the machine - well that would be a solution.

How is the water heated? As it comes in or while in the drum? From what you are saying - and from my observations - it seems the later?

Years ago we had a washing machine that had hot and cold fill valves, but it only drew hot for very hot washes, the book explained that it did not measure incoming temp and as the machine had no idea of the hot water temp it would not use it for washes below (from memory) 55C.  So if you are using cooler washes like most of us do, you may find that if you manage to find and refit the hot valve it may not get used.

[Johny London]

Oh, I think I heard that somewhere else too - surprised the machines don't just thermostatically mix the water. Could be that jddevels idea is the way to go - or a version of it.

For now at least, another thing working.

[WotEver]

2 hours ago, Johny London said:

How is the water heated? As it comes in or while in the drum? From what you are saying - and from my observations - it seems the later?

Once it's in the drum. 

[nicknorman]

3 hours ago, Johny London said:

How is the water heated? As it comes in or while in the drum? From what you are saying - and from my observations - it seems the later?

Yes as Tony says, it is a bit like an immersion heater - a heating element, obviously outside the drum but inside the water-containing bit.

[jddevel]

I`m fortunate with my experience- although some may be out of date but possibly only with improvement in the use of solid state circuitry - as I use to have a business renting and repairing washing machines (BBC and colleges etc were some of my customers). My modification has cost me just under £90 for the Artecnic valve (cheaper if you use the 30 to 50 degree version -but less flexible) and a £1 for a second hand valve from the local electric shop.  As a matter of interest to Johny London the leaky valve was probably caused by the swelling of the rubber section on the valve in the solenoid which prevented it closing properly-or the spring that this happen. Quick rub on the circumference of the rubber and you`d be back in working order. This problem can also occur with machines that aren`t used frequently. I would caution though there are other reasons for a machine to overfill.

[jddevel]

The element lays between the two drums. The outer watertight and the inner that holds the clothes etc. I laugh at the advert on TV that refers to calcium deposits on heating elements causing machine damage and a powder saving a costly repair. In my opinion this even in a very hard water area would in my opinion take quite a few years. I have recently had to have my Miele home washing machine changed because due to us regularly  failing to complete a very hot wash. Apparently some powders actually damage the drum internal supports on the earlier machines!!!!

[Robbo]

On 03/03/2017 at 18:04, Johny London said:

Just wanted to share with you all one little victory today

Finally fired up my washing machine. No leaks, nothing blew up. The machine ran well off the Victron inverter. It's a Bosch WFF2000 - I couldn't find details of its water/power consumption but it didn't seem to greedy according to my water gauge. I did have a problem with the power early on - the voltage to the inverter dropped to under 11v and a red light warned me of low voltage. This was with the engine idling, so I increased revs but to no avail - seemed for a moment as though I'd knackered the alternators output. But after switching off the machine, letting the batteries get a bit of charge then resuming the wash cycle at higher engine revs, things went ok. Just a question of learning how things like to be treated.

I wonder why the alternator output dropped right off then came back though. Hopefully just a normal safety feature but it should be good for 175a which is ... a lot. (couple kw?) Maybe trying to supply the machine and the hungry batteries was just too much for it - I'll start with higher revs and/or better charged batteries next time, now I know. Still good though!

Clean underwear

 

What type of batteries have you got and what is the capacity of the bank?

[Johny London]

Robbo - I've got 4x100ah Vetus maintenance free - but they are knackered. If they held a good charge it would have been ok I think.

 

jddevel - it was a long time ago but I remember inspecting some sort of plastic assembly that had o rings in it - it looked ok but on refitting was still problematic. I actually found a replacement part online for 45 quid I think, but I never bothered with it. All lost in the mists of time now I'm afraid. It wasn't massively overfilling, just after a few days a bit of water would gather in it I think.

[Robbo]

40 minutes ago, Johny London said:

Robbo - I've got 4x100ah Vetus maintenance free - but they are knackered. If they held a good charge it would have been ok I think.

 

jddevel - it was a long time ago but I remember inspecting some sort of plastic assembly that had o rings in it - it looked ok but on refitting was still problematic. I actually found a replacement part online for 45 quid I think, but I never bothered with it. All lost in the mists of time now I'm afraid. It wasn't massively overfilling, just after a few days a bit of water would gather in it I think.

If they a fo barred and have little capacity then that would explain the low voltage when trying to get high amps from them.   The reason I asked was that Traction batteries and batteries like Trojans don't like giving up the amps so need a bigger bank to provide the high amps.  So if replacing batteries with something like tractions take note. Not sure the reason for your alternator not kicking in, perhaps it detected the voltage was too low.  I'm not a alternator person tho.

[smileypete]

5 hours ago, Robbo said:

If they a fo barred and have little capacity then that would explain the low voltage when trying to get high amps from them.   The reason I asked was that Traction batteries and batteries like Trojans don't like giving up the amps so need a bigger bank to provide the high amps.  So if replacing batteries with something like tractions take note. Not sure the reason for your alternator not kicking in, perhaps it detected the voltage was too low.  I'm not a alternator person tho.

Out of interest, US Battery quote a 1hr rate for 232Ah batt as 133Ah:

http://usbattery.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/usb_2200_data_sheet_2017HR.pdf

So as long as they;'re over around 50% SoC they should be able put out C1 (232A) per battery just fine. Only thing to bear in mind is the additional terminal voltage drop will heat the battery, so best avoided for very long periods, but shorter bursts should be fine.

There's a a whole load of historical misunderstanding around the Peukert 'myth' that dates back to the Gibbo days.

Edited March 5, 2017 by smileypete

[smileypete]

21 hours ago, jddevel said:

I`m fortunate with my experience- although some may be out of date but possibly only with improvement in the use of solid state circuitry - as I use to have a business renting and repairing washing machines (BBC and colleges etc were some of my customers). My modification has cost me just under £90 for the Artecnic valve (cheaper if you use the 30 to 50 degree version -but less flexible) and a £1 for a second hand valve from the local electric shop.  As a matter of interest to Johny London the leaky valve was probably caused by the swelling of the rubber section on the valve in the solenoid which prevented it closing properly-or the spring that this happen. Quick rub on the circumference of the rubber and you`d be back in working order. This problem can also occur with machines that aren`t used frequently. I would caution though there are other reasons for a machine to overfill.

Did you have any dealings with the elements in domestic machines?

Just wondered as some appear to clamp together, also bendable elements can be had in low wattages say 500W from about £10, so wondered if it's possible to swap out the heating rod part for a lower wattage bendable and have a custom 500W element.

Edited March 5, 2017 by smileypete

[jddevel]

Did you have any dealings with the elements in domestic machines?

Just wondered as some appear to clamp together, also bendable elements can be had in low wattages say 500W from about £10, so wondered if it's possible to swap out the heating rod part for a lower wattage bendable and have a custom 500W element

The elements I am familiar with consisted of the heating rod with the necessary terminals inserted into a rubber insulator. It had a steel plate on either side of the rubber insulator (which also countered vibration) and a threaded rod from the internal plate to the external. On tightening the rubber expanded and was therefore secured. in the drum. So in answer to your question in my opinion it may well be possible to fabricate a low wattage working element. Even off a solar panel. However it may cool as fast as it heats due to conducted heat loss. It would be trying to get a happy medium.  

[David Mack]

On Saturday, March 04, 2017 at 15:40, Johny London said:

  

My machine actually has a hot fill, but some years ago the machine started to gather water (either in the drum or the detergent compartments, can't remember) so I investigated and found the assembly that is the hot and cold fill valves had a slight leak on the hot, so I turned the external hot supply off and used it cold fill only

               

Some years ago I replaced the hot and cold solenoid valves on a hot fill Zanussi washing machine. The unbranded replacement valves cost peanuts online - ebay or perhaps a spare parts site . On receipt the plastic mouldings had the same  manufacturers markings as the valves being replaced, but different electrical connections. I ended up soldering the wires on. All worked fine until the machine died for other reasons.

[jddevel]

jddevel - it was a long time ago but I remember inspecting some sort of plastic assembly that had o rings in it - it looked ok but on refitting was still problematic.

The rubber expands overtime I assume  due  to the heat-all be it very slightly but enough to prevent the return spring operating as designed.