Extending Rudder and associated bits.

[Retardedrocker]

 

I've rather neglected Billy for the two years I've been living aboard, just enjoying the life.

 

However, that's going to change next year and I have a list as long as my arm of stuff I want (not need) to do.

 

The hull needs to be blacked and, while out of the water, I would like to do a couple of mods to the rudder and tiller. I hope I have the terminology right.

 

Firstly, the rudder: Billy is a Liverpool boat and steers reasonably well going forwards, but is a pig reversing. I have seen somewhere on the forum that handling can be improved by 'extending' the rudder. Does anyone have a little more information on where to extend and by how much?

 

Secondly, the tiller: it's a one piece thing. The bar appears to be attached directly to the rudder, comes up through the top bearing and is then formed to the usual profile. This means that to change the bearing the whole assembly, including the rudder, has to come off. I've only seen a couple of other boats with this arrangement and it doesn't seem good. I would like to change it for a more convential design.

 

Are there any drawings available? I can sort out the parts easily enough as I work for an engineering company that also has a couple of lasers.

 

I know I will probably have to make it up as I go along, but any advice would be welcome.

 

Cheers,

T.

[bizzard]

I've rather neglected Billy for the two years I've been living aboard, just enjoying the life.

 

However, that's going to change next year and I have a list as long as my arm of stuff I want (not need) to do.

 

The hull needs to be blacked and, while out of the water, I would like to do a couple of mods to the rudder and tiller. I hope I have the terminology right.

 

Firstly, the rudder: Billy is a Liverpool boat and steers reasonably well going forwards, but is a pig reversing. I have seen somewhere on the forum that handling can be improved by 'extending' the rudder. Does anyone have a little more information on where to extend and by how much?

 

Secondly, the tiller: it's a one piece thing. The bar appears to be attached directly to the rudder, comes up through the top bearing and is then formed to the usual profile. This means that to change the bearing the whole assembly, including the rudder, has to come off. I've only seen a couple of other boats with this arrangement and it doesn't seem good. I would like to change it for a more convential design.

 

Are there any drawings available? I can sort out the parts easily enough as I work for an engineering company that also has a couple of lasers.

 

I know I will probably have to make it up as I go along, but any advice would be welcome.

 

Cheers,

T.

How does the steering handle going forwards? If your on a turn and you let go the tiller, does it self centre, or try to, like a car, it should do, positive helm, good. If you let go, does it wham over onto full lock and tries to drive you up the bank, it shouldn't do, negative helm, bad and dangerous.

Liverpool boats usual method of steering construction is that the stock passes through a tube welded into the rudder with pinch bolts and through nuts and bolts and so to sit on the skeg cup bearing. By removing the pinch and through bolts frees the rudder from the stock which after removing the nuts or bolts from the top bearing on the deck the whole tiller and stock can be lifted up and out leaving the rudder behind to fall out of its own accord.

If when going astern and needing to straighten up by kicking the stern across with full rudder over and a burst of forward throttle and it doesn't respond and accompanied with a lot of wash streaming out from the wrong side of the rudder? it is a sure sign that the leading edge of the rudder is too far away from the propeller and or the balance part of the rudder, ''the bit in front of the stock centre line'' is too small and might need extending forwards, closer to the prop. But if you do this you must add an appropriate amount of blade area to the trailing edge of the rudder or you'll end up with the bad dangerous negative helm mentioned above. I've always found Liverpool boats to steer ok in reverse, just as ok as any other narrow or wide beam boats. Are you too doing it right or are you not patient enough.

[alan_fincher]

Firstly, the rudder: Billy is a Liverpool boat and steers reasonably well going forwards, but is a pig reversing. I have seen somewhere on the forum that handling can be improved by 'extending' the rudder. Does anyone have a little more information on where to extend and by how much?

 

 

I can't remember seeing this suggestion, but no doubt it has been made.

 

I can't imagine just extending it backwards is going to do a lot to improve steering when going backwards, frankly.

 

It is just possible the amount of "leading edge" rudder that exists forward of the pivot point is more likely to affect things, particularly as some boats have almost none, and others "lots". Obvious;ly with none, half the prop remains uncovered by the rudder however much you swing the tiller, whereas with "lots" of leading edge, as you swing the tiller it will obscure significantly more of the rudder, and hence the way the water can flow. I would expect the difference could be significant, particularly when in reverse.

[Bee]

I think I'd save myself a lot of work for little or no improvement and spend the time and money saved on another coat of underwater paint.

[Retardedrocker]

 

Thanks for all the comment, it's much appreciated.

 

Blizzard, I've never actually tried or looked specifically for any of those traits, but I'm going out for a couple of days over Christmas and will check them all out. I don't have a problem getting where I want to go, but I see boats, particularly manoeuvring around the marina, that can virtually turn on a sixpence going forward or backwards.

 

I'll report back after the break. Maybe I just need another twenty years practice.

 

Cheers,

T.

[Guest]

Thanks for all the comment, it's much appreciated.

 

Blizzard, I've never actually tried or looked specifically for any of those traits, but I'm going out for a couple of days over Christmas and will check them all out. I don't have a problem getting where I want to go, but I see boats, particularly manoeuvring around the marina, that can virtually turn on a sixpence going forward or backwards.

 

I'll report back after the break. Maybe I just need another twenty years practice.

 

Cheers,

T.

Bowthruster?

From boats I have seen, it appears to be many factors that make some boats handle better than others, not least the swim.

I watched a hire company operative once reverse a fleet boat in a perfectly straight line. When I implied that he had obviously done this many times before, he claimed that all the fleet boats (of that size) where identical, yet some reverse steered better than others.

[blackrose]

I think I'd save myself a lot of work for little or no improvement and spend the time and money saved on another coat of underwater paint.

I agree, I think you're wasting your time. If the boat steers well in forward then that's about the best you can hope for. There are thousands of Liverpool Boats and they're not known for being worse in reverse than any others.

 

Most canal boats are crap in reverse and it's a question of learning some skills to overcome that. On still water with no wind almost any boat can be made to go backwards and get it where you want using "back and fill"，so then it's just a question of dealing with the elements. Have a look for threads on the subject in the Boat Handling sub-forum.

Edited December 12, 2016 by blackrose

[blackrose]

I don't have a problem getting where I want to go, but I see boats, particularly manoeuvring around the marina, that can virtually turn on a sixpence going forward or backwards.

 

Are you sure those boats aren't using bow thrusters?

 

If you don't have a problem getting the boat to go where you want then you don't have a problem.

[alan_fincher]

Bowthruster?

From boats I have seen, it appears to be many factors that make some boats handle better than others, not least the swim.

I watched a hire company operative once reverse a fleet boat in a perfectly straight line. When I implied that he had obviously done this many times before, he claimed that all the fleet boats (of that size) where identical, yet some reverse steered better than others.

 

When many moons ago, we used to moor in the often windswept Cow Roast Marina, the resident engineer, Darren, would regularly deliver boats back to their pontoons having worked on them in his dock, by reversing down at speeds that would scare the crap out of most of us. He just had both the confidence to try it, and the skills to manage it, and I rarely saw it go wrong. He would do it with any boat from Hudson to something with less shape underwater than a Springer. He could do it faultlessly with or then boat, but had I tried the same thing, it would have ended in tears.

 

The coal boater, Julia Cook, can reverse a loaded 71 footer from the winding hole Spouth of Blisworth tunnel back to Stoke Bruerne top lock, hardly ever having to use a burst of forward gear to correct her progress. I might manage about 2 boat lengths with her boat, (on a good day!).

 

However much you think you understand the theory and difficulties of reversing a narrow boat, in my experience often what actually happens differs from what you expect.

 

I think skills that I don't usually posses are 90% of getting it right, and the boat itself probably only contributes about 10% to success or failure.

 

Mind you just once in a while everything goes as you might hope for, even with an audience - I still look at this and think "why can't I do that all the time!"

 

[ditchcrawler]

I cut a slice off the leading edge of our rudder and added a couple of inches to the back end, because when I let go of the tiller she would turn left or right just as she fancied.She did turn faster than she does now for winding as more water blows passed the leading edge of the rudder when travelling at slow speed.

[Guest]

 

When many moons ago, we used to moor in the often windswept Cow Roast Marina, the resident engineer, Darren, would regularly deliver boats back to their pontoons having worked on them in his dock, by reversing down at speeds that would scare the crap out of most of us. He just had both the confidence to try it, and the skills to manage it, and I rarely saw it go wrong. He would do it with any boat from Hudson to something with less shape underwater than a Springer. He could do it faultlessly with or then boat, but had I tried the same thing, it would have ended in tears.

 

The coal boater, Julia Cook, can reverse a loaded 71 footer from the winding hole Spouth of Blisworth tunnel back to Stoke Bruerne top lock, hardly ever having to use a burst of forward gear to correct her progress. I might manage about 2 boat lengths with her boat, (on a good day!).

 

However much you think you understand the theory and difficulties of reversing a narrow boat, in my experience often what actually happens differs from what you expect.

 

I think skills that I don't usually posses are 90% of getting it right, and the boat itself probably only contributes about 10% to success or failure.

 

Mind you just once in a while everything goes as you might hope for, even with an audience - I still look at this and think "why can't I do that all the time!"

 

Excellent reversing! I like the way you nonchalantly step off when coming into land If I videod a reversing attempt, everything would go wrong. Just Sod's law.

[system 4-50]

Is it true that travelling in reverse fast is generally more successful at holding a straight line than being tentative?

[Detling]

Just like going forward in neutral if you have a bit of speed on the rudder will work, obviously not as well as with the prop wash, but you can steer if you are moving through the water(steerage way). Going astern is exactly the same, but there is no prop wash if you have sufficient way on the rudder will work. The problem is getting the nerve to get moving fast enough astern and then throttle back and steer, usually I like most people try gently, bottle out, and finish up to slow to steer. I recon that proximity to other boats is also a deterrent to getting steerage way astern.

 

As to turning on the spot I find it helps to stop the boat in the water, and then turn with the rudder full over, this basically spins the boat around the centre as most of the prop wash is pushing sideways.

[Retardedrocker]

 

As promised, here's a bit of an update.

 

I did a bit of cruising over the break and paid more attention than previously to what was actually happening:

 

If I let go whilst turning, the boat pretty much self centres, so no problem there. there's a slight tendency to veer to the left, but I think that's just a reaction to the rotation of the prop.

 

When I try to swing the stern to the left (in reverse) it changes direction quite readily, but it takes far longer (and more speed) to react swinging the stern to the right.

 

In summary, I agree with the consensus that the problem is me, not the boat.

 

Thanks for all the input.

 

Cheers,

T.

[chubby]

I too have a Liverpool boat & i find now & have always found in the four years ive owned it ( first boat ) that reversing is difficult . Because it was a Liverpool & because they seem to get a bad press i thought for a long time that it was a combination of my inexperience and some unknown design fault .

Ive since learned that its mostly my fault and because .... well... its just difficult.

I find mine will reverse for a boat length say as wanted but the bow soon starts going somewhere else , so i gently go into forwards gear and adjust it & then continue in reverse again . Its a bit of a chore to be honest & i try to avoid doing it but im much better now than i used to be , but im still not very good im afraid . But then again there isn t someone scoring my efforts so who cares ? .

One thing ive noticed on my boat & i think its a bit of a Liverpool boat co "

thing " is the bolts referred to by Bizzard are notorious for working loose leading to a bit of flappy tiller . I m hoping to get the boat out the water in late summer , early autum and may well get the rudder spot welded to do away with the bolts as the wobbly rudder isn t exactly helping and hopefully things ll get better .

Its a bit sad , but when i go out - not as often as i d like in recent times alas , I often have a bit of a practice reversing on an empty stretch where im causing no inconvenience to others as thats the only to get better i think .

[Guest]

I too have a Liverpool boat & i find now & have always found in the four years ive owned it ( first boat ) that reversing is difficult . Because it was a Liverpool & because they seem to get a bad press i thought for a long time that it was a combination of my inexperience and some unknown design fault .

Ive since learned that its mostly my fault and because .... well... its just difficult.

I find mine will reverse for a boat length say as wanted but the bow soon starts going somewhere else , so i gently go into forwards gear and adjust it & then continue in reverse again . Its a bit of a chore to be honest & i try to avoid doing it but im much better now than i used to be , but im still not very good im afraid . But then again there isn t someone scoring my efforts so who cares ? .

One thing ive noticed on my boat & i think its a bit of a Liverpool boat co "

thing " is the bolts referred to by Bizzard are notorious for working loose leading to a bit of flappy tiller . I m hoping to get the boat out the water in late summer , early autum and may well get the rudder spot welded to do away with the bolts as the wobbly rudder isn t exactly helping and hopefully things ll get better .

Its a bit sad , but when i go out - not as often as i d like in recent times alas , I often have a bit of a practice reversing on an empty stretch where im causing no inconvenience to others as thats the only to get better i think .

My boat has a similar steup to liverpool boats, where the rubber is held to the shaft with a pinch bolt. This would often work loose, so I managed to remove the bolt whilst afloat from a dinghy, wrapped the thread with PTFE tape and tightened it up with a strong arm and socket. Never came loose again.

[chubby]

I have been down the weedhatch to tighten the upper bolt but cannot reach the lower one . Still , its better than before and when its out next it will be fixed for certain , ideally with bolts but otherwise i ll get it spot welded which is something other Liverpool owners have had done from stuff ive read in the past and another owner told me that they had done that too .