Port Holes

[alan_fincher]

We’ve never had a cabin collapse yet!! There’s a bit more to it than frames/no frames.

Hello Graham,

 

I hope you didn't mind me quoting your boats in support of an argument that cabin sides don't have to have heavy bracing.

 

But to keep the debate fair, I do note that is a portholed boat.

 

(Perish the thought!), should somone comission a boat from you with "bus windows" rather than portholes, would you still consider the 5mm steel sides alone as sufficient, or would you then go for additional bracing to counteract the weakening caused by cutting bigger holes.

 

Lovely boats, by the way, but I'm sadly not that rich - ours also has 5mm unbraced sides, but is from a much more mainstream builder.

 

Alan

[sarahavfc]

Hello Graham,

 

I hope you didn't mind me quoting your boats in support of an argument that cabin sides don't have to have heavy bracing.

 

Thanks for you kind comments. I don't ming you quoting the article at all. Here is a link to the article which you were quoting:

 

Resolute - Norton Canes Tug - Waterways World Article July 2006

 

(Perish the thought!), should somone comission a boat from you with "bus windows" rather than portholes, would you still consider the 5mm steel sides alone as sufficient, or would you then go for additional bracing to counteract the weakening caused by cutting bigger holes.

 

We use the same method whether portholes or windows.

[alan_fincher]

We use the same method whether portholes or windows.

Good enough for me!

 

I'm bowing out, but am not expecting even my more modest boat to suffer any structural problems in the foreseeable future!

 

Thanks for your input

 

Alan

[dave moore]

Hi

I've no fabricating skills so can't add technical input to this debate, but I've been around boats since 1962 and in my trade as signwriter and canal boat decorator I can claim familiarity with the output of most boat builders in rather more yards than most boaters encounter.

Most builders who add framing to the cabin end up with a degree of rippling in the cabin sides to a greater or lesser extent, alon with uneven roofs that even sanding fails to disguise. Graham (all right, he's a mate!) is absolutely correct in his approach and produces the best proportioned and sweetly balanced shells that most builders get nowhere near. Sarah's photos, above, make the point only too clearly. Yes..I'm biased, it's my boat, but we've had so much praise from other boaters on our travels and I'd be happty - no, bloody proud...to show any doubting Thomases over her. Norton Canes are lon established and have a reputation for absolutely top quality shells that other top names who shout somewhat louder, would love to have. Again, it's a lifetime's experience in distilling the correct methods and processes. After almost 100 shells over more than 20 years under his own name and many years before that as Malcolm Braine's foreman..and Malcolm was a top marque builder in his day...

I await comments with interest.

Finally -as a long time boater who learned in the 60s with working boatmen and keen enthusiasts.. I'm happy to leap on to the roof when locking and I've not dented it yet....all 13 stone of me!

Cheers

Dave Moore

[Tusses]

at the end of the day - you could make a frame 'top' for your boat with all the structural integrity you need. Then 'hang' some straight steel plates off the side , port holes or bus windows, and no need to weld the two together !

 

OK so I cant explain myself in terms of metal very well - anyone good with wood ? think 'frame and panel'

 

hope this makes sense to some of you

[Ex- Member]

This is a comment from Graham Edgson, Norton Canes Boatbuilders:

 

Having just seen the statement made by Julynian, I find it difficult to understand where he/she is coming from making such rash comments about the quality of boats built by myself.

 

Without going into detail (and giving away some of my secrets), I would like to invite Julynian to Norton Canes so that I can show them, and explain, in person how I achieve quality and precision, especially on the cabin sides, which seem to be his bone of contention.

 

Putting cabin frames in only create problems when boats are coach painted to a high standard, showing every weld mark, as Mr Booth explains in his article (I refer you to the article which can be found on the ‘contact’ page of my website). The strength of the cabin side is certainly not compromised by not using framing.

 

We’ve never had a cabin collapse yet!! There’s a bit more to it than frames/no frames.

 

Regards,

 

Graham

 

 

 

 

You should be aware that I have said nothing with regard to your self your company or commented specifically on one of your boats, I simply commented as follows.

 

If a so called quality boat builder has built a cabin side without proper reinforcement, then by definition it's not quality, and won't last as long as a reinforced cabin side.

 

I stand by this statement

 

I could well be wrong, but I havent quoted your boat or your name, or even insinuated as such. R&D Fabrications who constructed the boat were long established and well regarded, as I'm sure yourself may well be. They constructed the cabin sides using re-inforcement as stated, even around the porthole structure. You may well have an ingenius way of doing this without such structure, and I would only be too pleased to view your craft. I applaud your use of portholes also

 

Apologies if you felt or it appears I was commenting specifically on one of your craft.

[sarahavfc]

You should be aware that I have said nothing with regard to your self your company or commented specifically on one of your boats, I simply commented as follows.

 

If a so called quality boat builder has built a cabin side without proper reinforcement, then by definition it's not quality, and won't last as long as a reinforced cabin side.

 

I stand by this statement

 

I could well be wrong, but I havent quoted your boat or your name, or even insinuated as such. R&D Fabrications who constructed the boat were long established and well regarded, as I'm sure yourself may well be. They constructed the cabin sides using re-inforcement as stated, even around the porthole structure. You may well have an ingenius way of doing this without such structure, and I would only be too pleased to view your craft. I applaud your use of portholes also

 

Apologies if you felt or it appears I was commenting specifically on one of your craft.

 

Thanks for replying, if you want to contact me on 01543 374888 we can arrange a viewing.

[Tusses]

Can I just add that I saw the upper internal framing on my boat as an aid to battening and lining ! 4/5mm steel is quite strong you know

[magnetman]

Getting back to important subjects, I'm wondering if Graham Edgson is an Aston Villa supporter

[Ex- Member]

Thanks for replying, if you want to contact me on 01543 374888 we can arrange a viewing.

 

Well we do already have a boat, and it wouldn't be fair to to wast any of your time being a non possible purchaser, although very interesting and appreciated.

 

I should have read what I was quoting better, as my remarks could appear to be pointing at your craft, but I can assure you they weren't.

 

I must say the straightness of that boat is impressive. I would hazard a guess that the use of a hardwood frame fitted correctly internally might create a finish as good as that. Just a wild guess.

[sarahavfc]

Getting back to important subjects, I'm wondering if Graham Edgson is an Aston Villa supporter

 

I can confirm he is, having just seen his reaction to Phil Neville's goal for Everton.

[Ex- Member]

Just read the Graham booth article, and have to agree the work on those boats are exemplary and to the highest quality. Look superb good too. The superb paint finishing and the need to avoid welding to the sides to achieve this is credible and quite clearly works.

 

I will obvioulsy conceed that the fitting of portholes and even bus windows into this non ribbed structure quite clearly works. However on cheaper budget builds using 4mm unsupported steel I still maintain are weaker than boats with reinforcing, especially the way battons are attached internally, and certainly not built to the quality of Grahams.

[dave moore]

Hi

Dave Moore again..no internal hardwood framing at all, just sheer skill with steel. You are more than welcome to pay a visit as a visitor with no customer expectations. They are legion, for they are many!

Cheers

[Ex- Member]

Hi

Dave Moore again..no internal hardwood framing at all, just sheer skill with steel. You are more than welcome to pay a visit as a visitor with no customer expectations. They are legion, for they are many!

Cheers

 

Hi dave I might well take you up on this. My brother is an engineer and is currently creating a boatmans cabin and engine room from an old original plan on his 60f/t narrowboat. He's done a lot of research into narrowboats and is trying to achieve a very traditional original look using similar engineering. He would love to make such a visit to a quality boatyard as I would. Me and Lynn's widebeam is basically designed to be a pretty basic functional living space, but have tried to keep all the lines of a traditiona N/boat. High quality coach painting is not for us, but brother Jason would love some insite into this. Unfortunately his boat cabin sides have been reinforced the same as mine, (same builder) and it's probably a bit late to change. He's an engineeer though so could invisage him stripping it all out and starting again I'll have a chat with him tomorrow if you don't mind 2 visitors.

 

 

Edited April 27, 2008 by Julynian

[dave moore]

Hi again

As I said before, you're welcome. The boat is currently at Norton Canes but we're hoping to move soon onto the main system. The back cabin is an authentic replica except for the width of the cross bed - 4feet as opposed to a more usual 3'6" bit all of the fittings and decoration are as I remember cabins of working boaters, several of whom have given it the "Thumbs up". To me that's praise indeed.

Hope to see you at some time.

Best wishes

Dave

[Timleech]

Sorry Tim, but porthole is very much a marine word. You're quite correct to describe it as a scuttle, but only on a Royal Navy ship. On a merchant ship it is definately called a port or porthole (the word scuttle is seldom used) and a deadlight is the brass or steel cover which fits over a porthole when it is situated below the freeboard deck to prevent any water getting in in case the glass is broken.

 

Doors in the sides of a ship through the shell plating for access to tween decks for cargo working are referred to as cargo ports or sometimes gun-port doors.

 

Howard Anguish

 

Howard

If as seems you are speaking from direct knowledge of current usage, then I'll happily bow to that.

 

It was instilled into me at an impressionable age that 'ships don't really have portholes', and it's one of those things which has stuck. Before posting here I checked with the 'Oxford Companion' (1975) and with a catalogue from 1976, both seem to support what I had been taught, the catalogue offering several varieties of Scuttles and Sidelights, fixed light etc.

Maybe what I was taught was wrong (entirely possible), and the Oxford Companion is plain wrong (less likely), what seems perhaps more likely is that useage has changed in the last 30 to 40 years?

 

 

Tim

[magnetman]

Scuttle, to me, is a much more pleasing and satisfactory word than porthole.

[Mick_B]

Used to have a "coal scuttle" meself....

[blackrose]

Just read the Graham booth article, and have to agree the work on those boats are exemplary and to the highest quality. Look superb good too. The superb paint finishing and the need to avoid welding to the sides to achieve this is credible and quite clearly works.

 

I will obvioulsy conceed that the fitting of portholes and even bus windows into this non ribbed structure quite clearly works. However on cheaper budget builds using 4mm unsupported steel I still maintain are weaker than boats with reinforcing, especially the way battons are attached internally, and certainly not built to the quality of Grahams.

 

My Liverpool Boat (generally considered a budget shell) has 5mm sides with a ribbed structure and they're pretty straight, so not all budget boats are badly built.

[Tusses]

Used to have a "coal scuttle" meself....

 

you beat me to it

 

I keep my coal in a scuttle

[Ex- Member]

My Liverpool Boat (generally considered a budget shell) has 5mm sides with a ribbed structure and they're pretty straight, so not all budget boats are badly built.

 

 

Tbh I don't think I've seen a Liverpool boat, 5mm cabin sides is clearly better than 4 though, I would have thought that a company using 5mm wouldn't come under the term of budget boat. there seems to be good things said about L boats, and a few not. I think Liverpool boats were a good price due to sheer quantity produced, so not necessarily budget.

[Tusses]

5mm cabin sides is clearly better than 4 though,

 

 

if 4 or 5 was plenty ... would 12 be 'better' ?

 

or is 4 all you need ?

 

 

if you get my thinking ?

 

[Ex- Member]

if 4 or 5 was plenty ... would 12 be 'better' ?

 

or is 4 all you need ?

 

 

if you get my thinking ?

 

 

TBh 4mm is sufficient bearing in mind that older nearrowboats were in some cases 6/4/2 are 30 years old plus. Oh and of course weight issues at 12mm

 

I would expect a 10/6/4 to last a hell of a lot longer if well built and well maintained.

 

When did the 10/6/4 rule start on narrowboats?

[John Orentas]

Hi Julian.

 

You seem to have a very Brunelian view of narrowboat design.. I can assure you that quality does not always equate directly with steel thickness.

 

I don't think you have said as yet, what plate thicknesses have been used on your boat which I understand is on a hard standing, is it going to float when the time comes?

Edited April 28, 2008 by John Orentas

[Ex- Member]

Hi Julian.

 

You seem to have a very Brunelian view of narrowboat design.. I can assure you that quality does not always equate directly with steel thickness.

 

I don't think you have said as yet, what plate thicknesses have been used on your boat which I understand is on a hard standing, is it going to float when the time comes?

 

Nothing wrong with the Brunellian approach, the canals and viaducts our boat has already cruised over were built by him. He also built one of the worlds largest ships I believe.

 

The boat has previously been on the water for 18 months between 04 and 06 It's 10/6/4 Handles beautifully and watertight as one would expect

 

It depends on what you want a narrowboat for. I want one to last the rest of our lifetime, whatever that might be. keeping the asthetics someway to that of a traditional narrowboat, and the inner space designed to be comfortably lived in. So in our case structure is important. It's not a Rolls Royce, neither a 1970's Skoda, it's somewhere inbetween.

 

Quality is the way the steel is put together, quality welding, properly executed.