Right to overstay when reasonable

[GoodGurl]

I am all for being reasonable, and informing CRT out of courtesy if I need to overstay, but I'm not prepared to be lied to by CRT about rules that don't exist.

 

Like I said before, I was questioned on the towpath about my medical condition, any why I could not move on. EO's are water traffic wardens, would you give a traffic warden that information ?

if you have already let CRT know why you cant move the next step is for the EO to visit you to discuss what happens next.

[Tony Dunkley]

I dont get if. They won't issue a license judge so that's why I haven' t got one. Oh says judge why won't you issue licence. Then surely it comes out as to why and on what basis they refuse a licence and. Isn't it normal to have defence and prosecution in court so you get a fair hearing. The judge would look at the act and give judgement as to who was right.

Am I missing something.

 

Not in the innappropriate legal process, CPR Part 8, that C&RT / Shoosmiths use against their chosen targets. This has been explained at some length by me and Nigel Moore in several other threads on this same subject.

Edited January 4, 2016 by Tony Dunkley

[Jerra]

I am all for being reasonable, and informing CRT out of courtesy if I need to overstay, but I'm not prepared to be lied to by CRT about rules that don't exist.

 

Like I said before, I was questioned on the towpath about my medical condition, any why I could not move on. EO's are water traffic wardens, would you give a traffic warden that information ?

A traffic warden wouldn't have any circumstances similar to the reasonableness situation of an EO. However yes I probably would discuss the medical situation with an EO. I might if there were many passers by invite them on board for more privacy but if just the two of us probably.

 

The discussion with the EO could be avoided by promt notification of the situation to CRT. It (to me at least) would seem unlikely that the need to over stay, the passing EO and the need of the 14 days all occurred at such short notice that the details couldn't have been sorted out with CRT as many on here have on many occasions said they seem to be very reasonable when contacted direct. If I was reticent about discussing my condition with an EO then having sorted it out with CRT I would refer them to the appropriate person or show them the email I had asked for to confirm their agreement.

[GoodGurl]

A traffic warden wouldn't have any circumstances similar to the reasonableness situation of an EO. However yes I probably would discuss the medical situation with an EO. I might if there were many passers by invite them on board for more privacy but if just the two of us probably.

 

The discussion with the EO could be avoided by promt notification of the situation to CRT. It (to me at least) would seem unlikely that the need to over stay, the passing EO and the need of the 14 days all occurred at such short notice that the details couldn't have been sorted out with CRT as many on here have on many occasions said they seem to be very reasonable when contacted direct. If I was reticent about discussing my condition with an EO then having sorted it out with CRT I would refer them to the appropriate person or show them the email I had asked for to confirm their agreement.

The reason you get a visit from the EO is so he can understand your individual needs, also so he can let his crew know not to log your number when doing the rounds. He also emails me occasionally for an update so he can pass it onto CRT offices.

[valrene9600]

Not in the innappropriate legal process, CPR Part 8, that C&RT / Shoosmiths use against their chosen targets. This has been explained at some length by me and Nigel Moore in several other threads on this same subject.

So only winner is crt by sound of it.

Best thing to do is inform the EO you have a problem. Once that problem has been resolved carry on with your cruise and enjoy the freedom of the canals till you are unfortunate to have to stay past 14 days. Has worked for me so far after 2 major cancer ops and some minor ones. Always found them helpful.

Of course if you want or have to stay in a small area for long periods then I guess you need to inform them and perhaps have a big legal team behind you because it seems from what I've heard here is your boat will end up out of the water.

I' ll stick to letting them know of a problem and IF needed supply some proof.

[valrene9600]

The reason you get a visit from the EO is so he can understand your individual needs, also so he can let his crew know not to log your number when doing the rounds. He also emails me occasionally for an update so he can pass it onto CRT offices.

I always thought the boat spotter had info on his screen to not ticket you as the office was aware of your circumstances.

[GoodGurl]

I always thought the boat spotter had info on his screen to not ticket you as the office was aware of your circumstances.

i wouldn't know i have never asked.

[valrene9600]

I am all for being reasonable, and informing CRT out of courtesy if I need to overstay, but I'm not prepared to be lied to by CRT about rules that don't exist.

Like I said before, I was questioned on the towpath about my medical condition, any why I could not move on. EO's are water traffic wardens, would you give a traffic warden that information ?

I would be very concerned if I were you. From what's been said here you could end up with no license and taken to court.

Could you not try the new wefare officer or perhaps some other organisation. Best not sit back doing nothing. Stop relying on what you and others think the law is because it seems boaters always lose in court.

Please get yourself some help. Now.

i wouldn't know i have never asked.

One did say to me once I see there's illness on the boat, hope all is well soon. Edited January 4, 2016 by valrene9600

[GoodGurl]

 

One did say to me once I see there's illness on the boat, hope all is well soon.

Thinking about it, last year i had a winter mooring permit so we didnt have to move, when i asked CRT for a log of that years movements i was actually logged weekly on the winter mooring.

[onionbargee]

The current process works on the basis that the EO is being reasonable, some are, some aren't, the point is that its dumb to ignore the fact that where you get a " unhelpful" EO you are going to get into a mess. Possibly having to deal with what you see as harassment while you are ill. Or you find they are putting black marks on your cruising record unfairly.

[Sabcat]

I wasn't thinking of cases like the one you quote. I was thinking more of the statements along the lines of "don't tell them you will be over staying" "they haven't the right to ask for information".

 

To me if they want/need to manage efficiently knowing what boats are staying where and why saves them wasting time and resources on checking and chasing up.

 

It is (to me at least) a basic courtesy but so many seem hell bent on making life as difficult as possible for EOs and CRT in general. It appears that when approached reasonably CRT are very reasonably. What is gained by being antagonistic.

 

In principle I agree with you and that approach should always be tried first. Know your rights, but unless you're looking for a row don't ever start with "I know my rights".

[Bod]

So why doesn't the facts of why the boat has no license come up. Perhaps then there might be a legal ruling on the overstay part of the act.

Two questions are not asked in Court.

"Why has this boat no licence?"

"Do C&RT have the power to remove/refuse licences?"

Answers to these would stop most cases.

 

Bod

[Arthur Marshall]

I am all for being reasonable, and informing CRT out of courtesy if I need to overstay, but I'm not prepared to be lied to by CRT about rules that don't exist.

 

Like I said before, I was questioned on the towpath about my medical condition, any why I could not move on. EO's are water traffic wardens, would you give a traffic warden that information ?

I was given a parking ticket when I overstayed at a car park for a valid reason. If I'd seen the traffic warden I could have explained why i wasn't there to move my car (being in hospital at the time). It would have been a lot simpler than having to tell the bods at the council, which I did, who then withdrew the ticket. So yes, I would. (I could, under your system, of course, waited till it had gone to court with all the expense and fuss and bother that entails, and done it then.)

 

However, if you want to tell the EO to bugger off, don't complain when CRT start getting heavy because they have no idea why you are overstaying. For ****'s sake, stop being paranoid about bloody rules and try to behave like someone who realises they have to rub along with everyone else, including the people in head office. All you're doing is wasting CRT's time and money as they try to find out why the hell you are still sitting under the same tree after six weeks while you keep telling them it's none of their business. Sorry, but it is.

[NigelMoore]

"Do C&RT have the power to remove/refuse licences?"

 

Well yes, they do, under the specified terms of the 1995 Act. The question would be whether those terms applied.

[Jerra]

I was given a parking ticket when I overstayed at a car park for a valid reason. If I'd seen the traffic warden I could have explained why i wasn't there to move my car (being in hospital at the time). It would have been a lot simpler than having to tell the bods at the council, which I did, who then withdrew the ticket. So yes, I would. (I could, under your system, of course, waited till it had gone to court with all the expense and fuss and bother that entails, and done it then.)

 

However, if you want to tell the EO to bugger off, don't complain when CRT start getting heavy because they have no idea why you are overstaying. For ****'s sake, stop being paranoid about bloody rules and try to behave like someone who realises they have to rub along with everyone else, including the people in head office. All you're doing is wasting CRT's time and money as they try to find out why the hell you are still sitting under the same tree after six weeks while you keep telling them it's none of their business. Sorry, but it is.

Admirably put Sir!

[Sir Nibble]

Unsupported by evidence and only a personal opinion but if you want to complain about heavy handed enforcement then direct your ire against those who have made every effort to minimise their movement over the years and brought this down upon innocent and guilty alike.

[bassplayer]

Unsupported by evidence and only a personal opinion but if you want to complain about heavy handed enforcement then direct your ire against those who have made every effort to minimise their movement over the years and brought this down upon innocent and guilty alike.

Personally I think those who whinge because they can't moor up exactly where and when they like are just as bad...

[Sir Nibble]

Personally I think those who whinge because they can't moor up exactly where and when they like are just as bad...

Yes i know you find it easier to believe in lots of unfounded malicious complaints than that there might actually be a problem because it haven't affected you. i have never been inconvenienced by a drunk driver so maybe that's just down to winging bastards.

[bassplayer]

Yes i know you find it easier to believe in lots of unfounded malicious complaints than that there might actually be a problem because it haven't affected you. i have never been inconvenienced by a drunk driver so maybe that's just down to winging bastards.

The majority of boaters are being affected by P takers on both sides. I thought I made that clear by saying they are just as bad.

[GoodGurl]

Unsupported by evidence and only a personal opinion but if you want to complain about heavy handed enforcement then direct your ire against those who have made every effort to minimise their movement over the years and brought this down upon innocent and guilty alike.

swords at dusk or pistols at dawn?

[jenlyn]

Yes i know you find it easier to believe in lots of unfounded malicious complaints than that there might actually be a problem because it haven't affected you. i have never been inconvenienced by a drunk driver so maybe that's just down to winging bastards.

What bass player stated is true. Whenever CRT are asked about overstaying boats, the first thing they counter with is " we have had many complaints from other boaters".

I even watched one guy at a meeting, produce pictures of two boats, that had been moored for over 4 months in the same spot.

Both boats had only in fact been there for four days.

Far to many cmers*, that's most of the problem.

 

*cmers=constant moaners.

[Gordias]

What bass player stated is true. Whenever CRT are asked about overstaying boats, the first thing they counter with is " we have had many complaints from other boaters".

I even watched one guy at a meeting, produce pictures of two boats, that had been moored for over 4 months in the same spot.

Both boats had only in fact been there for four days.

Far to many cmers*, that's most of the problem.

 

*cmers=constant moaners.

 

Is that your best evidence that CaRT are lying, and "there is no problem with Continuous Moorers"?

 

It reads as though a lone lunatic who's exceptionally careless with his definition of evidence got his few minutes of fame by spinning lies at one meeting. if so, it's a "Straw Man" - no more use as evidence that those photographs.

Edited January 5, 2016 by Gordias

[jenlyn]

 

Is that your best evidence that CaRT are lying, and "there is no problem with Continuous Moorers"?

 

It reads as though a lone some lunatic who's exceptionally careless with his definition of evidence got his few minutes of fame by spinning lies at one meeting. if so, it's a "Straw Man" - no more use as evidence that those photogtaphs.

[bassplayer]

What bass player stated is true. Whenever CRT are asked about overstaying boats, the first thing they counter with is " we have had many complaints from other boaters".

I even watched one guy at a meeting, produce pictures of two boats, that had been moored for over 4 months in the same spot.

Both boats had only in fact been there for four days.

Far to many cmers*, that's most of the problem.

 

*cmers=constant moaners.

Some also like to give an opinion without providing any evidence then get picky when someone else does....

[jenlyn]

Some also like to give an opinion without providing any evidence then get picky when someone else does....

Yes. I've noticed that.

Some miss the fact that CRT were at one point stating over 3000 boats were not moving as per their cc guidance. However, their very own figures from enforcement a few months later, showed just over 800 actually being issued with restricted licenses. Quite a big gap.