60ft dutch trawler.to buy or not to buy rust issues.

[David Mack]

To give an idea of what corrosion can do to a boat hull, that looks OK from the inside, this is a cross section taken from the hull of 1937-built Badsey. This would originally have been 5/16 in (approx 8mm) plate:

 

 

Image from http://www.badseys.co.uk/history.html

[Bee]

When it was built it was probably 6mm at a guess, maybe less, even 4mm would be just about sufficiently strong (unlikely but possible), your English narrowboat is a massively heavily plated boat and hugely strong, much of its thickness is there to allow for wastage due to corrosion, corrosion around the bulkheads and other water traps is actually quite common, if you think about it the frames of the hull are just small bulkheads and under that concrete they are probably separated from the bottom plating. I looked at a small barge years ago with concrete in the bottom, had to walk away due to a lack of cash and I heard later that the whole bottom had to be cut off, new frames inserted and then replated, I think it was 50` x about 11`, a relatively straightforward job, no difficult curves, just some rolled steel along the bilge but it still meant virtually dismantling the whole boat. After all that it was beautiful and highly desirable, a go anywhere boat, a worthwhile risk but it gave the owners sleepless nights. Taking on a big boat project is a bit like fighting a war, personally I,ve always been lucky enough to have fought wars I could win, I think your trawler sounds as though it could have beaten me 10 times over.

[RLWP]

Run away. Just because it's cheap doesn't make it a good buy

 

Leave it alone

 

Don't buy it

 

Richard

 

Have I left any room for ambiguity?

[davo123]

Ha.i do very frequently tell myself im a complete fool and I should walk away.i can see what you are saying about the concrete definitely,and also i did think the engine room rust first thing was a little susect! but something makes my brain go back to it..also the fact that its only 3500.im aware I would spend another 30k roughly however it would give me something todo with my weekends for about 4 years..

[zenataomm]

I am being blunt here ......

You admit you don't know how to use an ultrasonic thickness tester so what would be the point in your using one, it's not merely a case of scraping off paint applying jelly and turning it on.

Your main cause for concern is hull thickness, but you don't appear to be bothered with why somebody at some time chose to tip a load of concrete into the bottom of it. That's not the sort of thing anyone would choose to do because they were bored one sunny Summer afternoon.

 

You have demonstrated a lot of sense in your opening post, and invited comments yet you're debating the very same issues when members of the forum expand on those issues.

It sounds like you are an intelligent and experienced engineer'ish (possibly much more) sort of chap. I guess at this moment you're heart is ruling your head and blinding you to what you suspect.

However, you need to do what you need to do.

If it were me I would decline and use my money and passion on saving a more worthwhile old lady, but at the moment it sounds like you've made up your mind.

[davo123]

I think I will gamble 50 quid on it.rent the thickness gauge and spend a day measuring it.is there anywhere in particular I should defintiely take lots of measurements?

I think I will gamble 50 quid on it.rent the thickness gauge and spend a day measuring it.is there anywhere in particular I should defintiely take lots of measurements?

[RLWP]

This is a money pit. Have you got the £25,000+ this boat is going to need?

 

Walk, no, run away

 

Richard

[Starcoaster]

 

I think I will gamble 50 quid on it.rent the thickness gauge and spend a day measuring it.is there anywhere in particular I should defintiely take lots of measurements?

 

Is there anywhere in particular below the waterline where a hole won't sink it?

Edited December 31, 2015 by Starcoaster

[davo123]

Im aware concrete is used to hide things but I think in this instance it has been used as a cheap ballast to make the boat sit right in the water.. The engine room hasnt got any in it and if you removed the huge engine im sure it would bob up at the back. The reason im umming and ahhing is partly my heart yes,but also the fact that saving 15k for a lovely sound tested hull will take me a long time however I can afford this with what I have,and immediately have nearly 6k to spend on it,and finding money as I go is more doable in my kind of work. I'm looking like this as something that will be in a yard out of water for the next 3/4 years,not expecting it to be easy in any respect.i have learnt a few things this evening definitely,I think it may be too far gone by what you all say,the way you describe how the supports lifted away under the concrete makes alot of sense,I presumed it would be dry under there for the most part but I have no idea how they do it.

[davo123]

Just having a good look at wendy blog now.either way very glad I found that as if nothing else I can use it to prepare the wife for what she has in store at some point in the future.

Edited December 31, 2015 by davo123

[David Mack]

i have taken lots of photos however I have no idea how to post them?

 

Two ways:

 

Upload your photos to the internet somewhere and then insert links to them using the "Image" button.

 

Or

 

Create a new message, then click on "More Reply Options" , then "Choose File", navigate to the image on your computer and click on "Attach This File", repeat for as many images as you want to include, then click on "Add Reply" .

[davo123]

The last one is of the worst looking bit of hull thats visible on the inside.the majority of it at the front end is dry inside but obviously I have no idea what lurks below it

The last one is of the worst looking bit of hull thats visible on the inside.the majority of it at the front end is dry inside but obviously I have no idea what lurks below it

[Paul G2]

 

Your main cause for concern is hull thickness, but you don't appear to be bothered with why somebody at some time chose to tip a load of concrete into the bottom of it. That's not the sort of thing anyone would choose to do because they were bored one sunny Summer afternoon.

 

 

For some reason it was once considered okay on the continent to fill bilges with concrete as ballast. It's a stupid idea and destroys the value of the ship.

 

To the OP - There are a lot of barges and schooners/trawlers available for the same money as you are talking about here, but that are a lot better deal. Here are a few examples:

http://www.marktplaats.nl/a/watersport-en-boten/motorboten-en-motorjachten/m1001593664-garnalen-kotter-18m-met-vlakrapport-noorderhaven-status.html?c=efb2ef4dc323389c4f92ed10afa33e3a&previousPage=lr

 

https://www.apolloduck.com/feature.phtml?id=419917

 

https://www.apolloduck.com/feature.phtml?id=344443

 

https://www.apolloduck.com/feature.phtml?id=344443

 

http://www.marktplaats.nl/a/watersport-en-boten/motorboten-en-motorjachten/m982963307-beurtschip-14-50-x-3-45-daf-475-aluminium-ramen-cv.html?c=efb2ef4dc323389c4f92ed10afa33e3a&previousPage=lr

 

http://www.marktplaats.nl/a/watersport-en-boten/motorboten-en-motorjachten/m981855221-westlander-met-boegschroef-en-in-2015-geschilderd.html?c=efb2ef4dc323389c4f92ed10afa33e3a&previousPage=lr

 

http://www.marktplaats.nl/a/watersport-en-boten/motorboten-en-motorjachten/m875294435-te-koop-zeer-mooie-originele-goed-onderhouden-sleepboot.html?c=efb2ef4dc323389c4f92ed10afa33e3a&previousPage=lr

 

edited to add - having read your last post I see you don't have that other £30,000 available right now so that kind of shoots my comment down. If you look at the first link I posted, one of the photos is of the ship out of the water. You can see they have repaired the underwater hull by doubling the steel plates. That's not the best way to repair a hull, but it is pretty standard practice for old Dutch barges and cutters.

 

Get a loan for the other £12,500 you need and buy the boat in the first link, you'll be lot happier, and wealthier, four years from now.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Paul G2

[John V]

I don't have time (or battery) to make a full comment on this post. I feel I am qualified to give a solid opinion as I have that particular Tee shirt.

From the little information (and sorry but at the moment it is little information) about the overall state of the hull I would say that £3.5K is way over the top for its value.

If there is a scrap yard nearby then you need to get it for something in the region of its scrap value and then it will be a gamble,I even after you have worked out how much steel you will have to replace.

I can assure you that you will need to replace at least double the amount you calculate.

If you are going to take ultrasonic readings you will need to grind down to bright metal to get a decent reading and you will need to make literally hundreds of tests to get even a rough idea. You are going to have to be prepared to devote yourself to the job for years, so make sure your eyes are fully open.

After the holidays I will go into more detail if you want.Gleniffer DB4 by mudlarker2, on FlickrSabina H by mudlarker2, on FlickrSAM_0173 by mudlarker2, on Flickrb atch to sort 211 by mudlarker2, on Flickr

[davo123]

Ok good to know it needs to be bright metal.the price may well be negotiable if its in worse nick than expected.id be renting the gauge for a week so I could literally go all over it except for the concreted bit.im aware its a massive undertaking even if I got extremely lucky and the hull is ok.the story is that 15 years ago it was sent in for major bottom plating..I dont know if it was the whole bottom, the owner couldn't pay amd forfeited the boat at which point it sat in the yard a few years and my friend who worked there at the time eventually bought it off them for labour,got it tugged to where she is and it hasnt moved since.certainly at the front of the boat on both sides the first ten foot has definitely been plated but you cant see any further due to water/mud depending on the tide.

Also shes never been underwater at any point. She has alot of paperwork also that I have yet to see as its in storage elsewhere.

[RLWP]

as a start - can you afford to dry dock and paint her?

 

Richard

[Paul G2]

Here's one you could actually afford now:

 

http://www.marktplaats.nl/a/watersport-en-boten/motorboten-en-motorjachten/m1000205139-te-koop-opknapper-compleet-schip-voor-handige-doehetzelver.html?c=efb2ef4dc323389c4f92ed10afa33e3a&previousPage=lr

[davo123]

Yes id have 6k available to spend and a large check in august. Thats alot of boat for 7500 euro Paul,i definitely need to have more of a search.I haven't found anything close to that,the thing is I need space,lots of it.with this I can have two storeys without it looking awful,in effect a 45x12ft space downstairs and another 35ft x 12 down.i guess I can do that with any similar sized trawler though.

[RLWP]

£600o. Almost enough for a docking, survey and paint.

 

Richard

[davo123]

I would get it hauled out and cleaned.it would then be derusted with a pin gun,anything welded then treated then an epoxy two part paint.so what id effectively be paying for is getting it towed,hauled out the water and cleaned at £1500,then the cost of metal,welding consumables and rust inhibitor and paint.that would probably take me the best part of a year id imagine so add 120 a month for twelve months.without doing any welding under the waterline i would already be buying 2500 quids worth of 4mm sheet to do a new deck and space above deck.the 6 grand would be enough to last me to august believe me. Im aware of the costs involved with hauling out and storage and insurance for tow..im not a fool however,if I could find a boat of a similar size for around 10k in decent nick I would drop this one in an instant!

[Paul G2]

Yes id have 6k available to spend and a large check in august. Thats alot of boat for 7500 euro Paul,i definitely need to have more of a search.I haven't found anything close to that,the thing is I need space,lots of it.with this I can have two storeys without it looking awful,in effect a 45x12ft space downstairs and another 35ft x 12 down.i guess I can do that with any similar sized trawler though.

 

Seriously? You think you could accomplish that without it looking awful? To accomplish what you are talking about would go beyond awful - we're talking coyote ugly. By the time you were done, the ship would be of value to no one but you.

 

ETA - After I read that, it sounds kinda rude - it wasn't meant to be. It's just that if you look at boats that have been "added on to" by DIYers and they are almost always ugly beyond description.

Edited January 1, 2016 by Paul G2

[MtB]

Ok good to know it needs to be bright metal.the price may well be negotiable if its in worse nick than expected.id be renting the gauge for a week so I could literally go all over it except for the concreted bit.im aware its a massive undertaking even if I got extremely lucky and the hull is ok.the story is that 15 years ago it was sent in for major bottom plating..I dont know if it was the whole bottom, the owner couldn't pay amd forfeited the boat at which point it sat in the yard a few years and my friend who worked there at the time eventually bought it off them for labour,got it tugged to where she is and it hasnt moved since.certainly at the front of the boat on both sides the first ten foot has definitely been plated but you cant see any further due to water/mud depending on the tide.

Also shes never been underwater at any point. She has alot of paperwork also that I have yet to see as its in storage elsewhere.

 

 

Which is of course, the bit where all the problems lie. This is why they concreted it.

 

The longer you own a concreted hull for, the more deeply you'll understand the folly of concreting them.

 

Happy New Y........ and all that!

[David Mack]

The last one is of the worst looking bit of hull thats visible on the inside.the majority of it at the front end is dry inside but obviously I have no idea what lurks below it

 

She has a shapely hull. But the closeup images show that the above waterline paint has been applied over quite a lot of rust and scale. You will want to get that all removed, and that will probably reveal more thin bits or holes.

[davo123]

Id like to think as im a welder by trade and building beautiful structures out of metal is something I regularly do it would look quite nice indeed.infact the new addition on deck would be shorter in height than the current wheelhouse and the same length and position as the current setup above deck including wheelhouse,you truly have no idea what you are talking about concerning what I can or cannot build or how I would do it . nevertheless Thank you Paul and to everyone who has chatted to me,I think I obviously need to think about passing on this one and saving for longer.i may still hire the gauge and test it.if nothing else it will be easy to say no if i find problems and its all experience after all. If I do buy it I'll let you all know.happy new year to all.

[gazza]

Id like to think as im a welder by trade and building beautiful structures out of metal is something I regularly do it would look quite nice indeed.infact the new addition on deck would be shorter in height than the current wheelhouse and the same length and position as the current setup above deck including wheelhouse,you truly have no idea what you are talking about concerning what I can or cannot build or how I would do it . nevertheless Thank you Paul and to everyone who has chatted to me,I think I obviously need to think about passing on this one and saving for longer.i may still hire the gauge and test it.if nothing else it will be easy to say no if i find problems and its all experience after all. If I do buy it I'll let you all know.happy new year to all.

You said at the start you are an automotive welder - what do you mean by this? Do you nail mot wrecks together or do you weld trailer chassis? Automotive welder isn't a term I'm familiar with.

 

If its the former, replating and repairing an old trawler to a good standard - is shipbuilding standard my be a bigger task for you than you might imagine