Advice for a newbie

[Tecka]

Update time all, I went out yesterday with my list of boats to see. Went to Whilton first, Rugby boats etc... I then went to have a look at a back cabin / engine room boat which I'd never considered due to loss of internal space. It needs work - blackening, cabin repaint, it's got no fridge, the br and galley are tired and in need of update............... but I fell in love with the lines of the boat.

 

It's a 1976 Dave Harris built from 6mm steel, the survey from 2011 before it became a static residential boat shows the thinnest the steel was 4.2mm with most readings at 5mm> (6mm plate originally)

 

The engine (Sabb 2 cylinder) started on the button and sounds beautiful. Everything else is usable until necessary (I've been saying that for years about jobs needed here)

 

So in summary - 47' 1976 Dave Harris with Sabb 2 cylinder. Hull needs blacking, cabin needs painting. Interior other than back cabin and engine room needs refit.

 

I've already booked to have another look and go out for a cruise on Monday. tbh I got ' the feeling' a few people here have told me I would get. I can see myself at the tiller with the dogs beside whilst telling myself I'll start the updates needed soon

 

Advice I'm looking for is what do you guys think, does it sound too much to do - approximately what should I be looking at offering.

[Rob-M]

Assuming it's the Dave Harris listed on Apollo Duck then looks like good lines and a fairly blank canvas to work with in the main cabin. If you have the ability to do it up yourself then looks a good buy. I'd make an offer and see how it goes. Personally I would want a new survey done as a lot could have happened since 2011.

[Tecka]

Oh yeah, 100% survey (in fact needed for insurance) last one is over 4 years old. (It's already booked out for blacking on the 11th Nov so survey at the same time if I make a sts offer)

 

Sorry I meant to post the link for peeps http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/advert.phtml?id=440800

 

I hate with a passion the positioning of the solar panels, I would move them to the roof straight away!

[Southern Star]

Oh yeah, 100% survey (in fact needed for insurance) last one is over 4 years old. (It's already booked out for blacking on the 11th Nov so survey at the same time if I make a sts offer)

 

Sorry I meant to post the link for peeps http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/advert.phtml?id=440800

 

I hate with a passion the positioning of the solar panels, I would move them to the roof straight away!

Personally, I like it. None of the improvements needed seem excessive.

[magictime]

Well, 'the feeling' should not be ignored! If you've got the skills and motivation to paint it before any harm comes to the steel, and then work on the interior bit by bit, at least you have a nice boatman's cabin to live in meanwhile. I have to be honest and say that the hull thickness issues would be a deal-breaker for me, partly because it raises the prospect of expensive overplating/replating being needed in the medium term and partly because I'd be worried about resale value; I supect there will always be a pretty low ceiling on its value due to its age and hull thickness, which means any time and money you spend on it is likely to be an investment in your own happiness and comfort rather than in the boat itself (if that makes sense).

 

Just make sure you're going into it with your eyes open and get the best price you can. Maybe an offer nearer the mid-teens and hopefully keep the final price well under £20k?

[Tecka]

have to be honest and say that the hull thickness issues would be a deal-breaker for me

 

 

Oooh, have I missed something here? I was thinking a 6mm steel plate that has been in the water for nigh on 40 years was doing quite well losing less than a third of it's thickness was actually good. (by my reckoning another 60 - 80 years)

 

Also if it's taken back to bare steel, blackened and then fitted sacrificial anodes isn't the boat essentially a 4mm boat in a time when lots are being built to 3mm?

[Alan de Enfield]

 

Oooh, have I missed something here? I was thinking a 6mm steel plate that has been in the water for nigh on 40 years was doing quite well losing less than a third of it's thickness was actually good. (by my reckoning another 60 - 80 years)

 

Also if it's taken back to bare steel, blackened and then fitted sacrificial anodes isn't the boat essentially a 4mm boat in a time when lots are being built to 3mm?

 

Rightly or wrongly many insurance companies will not insure a boat with a 4mm base plate.

[John V]

My thoughts on hull thickness align more with yours Tecka. I have had these discussions before on the forum. BUT I come from a background of saltwater boating where considerably thinner plate is used than on the inland waterways. HOWEVER, Canalboats (generally) do not have the base plate painted, as it seems to be believed that they don't corrode away (where is a puzzled face emoticon when you need one) They do however have the plate made with a very generous thickness. (probably to allow for this none existent corrosion) There is also a tendency to persist in using low tech "blacking" as opposed to the high tech paint schemes that are now available for hulls.

If you have 4mm of steel protected by a good quality coating (inside and out as it is sometimes not understood that many boats "rot" from the inside) then it should last indefinitely. BUT ALL OF THE HULL PLATING NEEDS COATING. This however is not easy due to the very low height "timbers" in drydocks on the inland waterways compounded by the flat bottom construction of the average narrowboat hull.

[Neil2]

Be very careful here. That boat could very well be on the point of sinking. Thinning of the hull plate is not the issue, it's pitting that leads eventually to perforation and I'd be amazed if this boat didn't have issues there. A four year old survey is meaningless, no relevance whatsoever.

 

The Sabb engine could also be a money pit, very expensive parts.

 

If you are really keen on this boat a) get a good surveyor to look at it, (who will probably recommend overplating), b ) have a talk with the folks at Sleeman & Hawken UK Sabb dealers.

 

Above all don't turn someone else's problems into yours.

[magictime]

 

Oooh, have I missed something here? I was thinking a 6mm steel plate that has been in the water for nigh on 40 years was doing quite well losing less than a third of it's thickness was actually good. (by my reckoning another 60 - 80 years)

 

Also if it's taken back to bare steel, blackened and then fitted sacrificial anodes isn't the boat essentially a 4mm boat in a time when lots are being built to 3mm?

 

I don't think any boats are being built to 3mm or anything like it nowadays - in fact I think it was only ever small (sub-30ft?) Springer-type boats that were built with 3mm and 4mm base plates, from the 70s to the 90s. I'd say 10mm would be the expected base plate thickness on a 47ft narrowboat being built nowadays. The sides and top are often a bit thinner, of course: 8mm, 6mm, 4mm.

 

The boat I owned until last year was a 90s 24-footer that had been built with a 4mm base plate which was down to 3.5mm in some places when we had it surveyed in 2011. Our surveyor said it could last another 20 years, properly looked after, but it was a bit of a gamble really. I wouldn't have wanted to own it much longer before selling it on. Many similar boats of a similar age have already needed overplating/replating.

[Tecka]

Cool, new learnings again. Thanks all.

 

Id seen the 3mm written somewhere and obviously didn't take it in properly.

 

I'm definitely missing something on pitting / plate thickness. If pitting reduces the thickness of the plate isn't the plate then 4.2? If all rust is removed to bare metal and then hull is maintained it will last forever.... Or is pitting something different on narrow boats to what I think?

 

Edited for bad grammer.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Tecka

[Alan de Enfield]

Pitting is as the name implies a 'pit' (or crater) which reduces the thickness of the metal. The plate could show (say) 4mm thickness but then there are 'pits' 3.9mm deep - the metal thickness in that area is then 0.1mm. The pit may only be the size of a pin or it could be considerably bigger

 

Pits are generally caused by 'loose' electrical currents floating about in marinas or where a boat spends time connected to the mains supply.

[Tecka]

Okay, that's what I thought pitting was. I figured the surveyor would choose the obviously thinner section to survey and that's where the 4.2mm figure came from.

 

I didn't realise pitting could be quite so small as pin prick size tbh.

[Southern Star]

 

Oooh, have I missed something here? I was thinking a 6mm steel plate that has been in the water for nigh on 40 years was doing quite well losing less than a third of it's thickness was actually good. (by my reckoning another 60 - 80 years)

 

It is good, it will still be floating long after you have kicked the bucket, but you'll probably only be able to get third party insurance on it.

[Tecka]

Thanks again for the information all.

 

I've had an insurance quote and (dependent on new survey results) it looks as though it may well be insurable, granted only online quotes so far but reassuring(ish) none the less.

 

have a talk with the folks at Sleeman & Hawken UK Sabb dealers.

Excellent suggestion, thank you for this one, I'll get in touch AM before I set out.

 

Pits are generally caused by 'loose' electrical currents floating about in marinas or where a boat spends time connected to the mains supply

Thanks, so my assumption is a boat used for the last four years in a static marina is more likely to have issues - my next is this is why anodes are definitely required in a marina. I'm learning loads here guys

[Alan de Enfield]

Anodes DO offer some protection but the amount of protection is debatable.

 

Many 'experts' claim that an anode will only protect about 4 feet around itself, therefore if you have a 60 foot boat with anodes at the front and rear, there is a huge expanse of hull that is not protected.

Attach anodes (every 8 feet) along the sides and you will knock them off - there is no easy answer.

[Tecka]

Anodes DO offer some protection but the amount of protection is debatable.

Many 'experts' claim that an anode will only protect about 4 feet around itself, therefore if you have a 60 foot boat with anodes at the front and rear, there is a huge expanse of hull that is not protected.

Attach anodes (every 8 feet) along the sides and you will knock them off - there is no easy answer.

Cheers Alan, I may have been misunderstood (or I may be misunderstanding) I wasn't doubting the post but it made a couple of things drop into place for me (i.e. I'd read here somewhere that Anodes were useful on the cut but essential in a marina) Plus new learning's again as I'd never heard the 4' thing before. Cheers

 

[Alan de Enfield]

 

Cheers Alan, I may have been misunderstood (or I may be misunderstanding) I wasn't doubting the post but it made a couple of things drop into place for me (i.e. I'd read here somewhere that Anodes were useful on the cut but essential in a marina) Plus new learning's again as I'd never heard the 4' thing before. Cheers

 

 

Whilst you are in 'learning mode' here is a good read and explanation about why and how anodes work.

 

http://www.performancemetals.com/anodes/AnodeFAQs.shtml

[Tecka]

Thanks again Alan, I already knew the basics (It was me that bought Anodes up in the first place) Your additional info will definitely come in useful though.

 

Thanks, so my assumption is a boat used for the last four years in a static marina is more likely to have issues - my next is this is why anodes are definitely required in a marina. I'm learning loads here guys

 

Are my assumptions correct otherwise the information is somewhat less useful.

 

Tez

 

Edited for double thanks (Although Alan deserves two mind)

Edited September 20, 2015 by Tecka

[Alan de Enfield]

Cheers again Alan,

 

Thanks again Alan, I already knew the basics (It was me that bought Anodes up in the first place) Your additional info will definitely come in useful though.

 

 

Are my assumptions correct otherwise the information is somewhat less useful.

 

Tez

 

Anywhere when you have two (or more) dissimilar metals in water you will generate electrical discharge between the anode and cathode - this will cause erosion of the 'lowest' (on the noble scale). To prevent (or reduce) this you need to introduce a metal even lower down the scale - these are the anodes.

 

Anodes need to be installed if the boat is in the water - any water.

 

If a boat is in a Marina then not only is it subject to the above erosion, but there can be 'stray' currents from other boats faulty wiring, the mains hook up system etc etc. There is a huge melting pot of 'soup' in a marina with Zinc plated pilings, steel structures, boats hooked up to the mains etc etc.

 

In a marina, not only do you need anodes, you need a galvanic isolator as well.

 

Erosion & Corrosion are extensive subjects and you can spend years reading up on them.

 

A company I used to work for supplied fixings to the offshore industry - it is surprising what causes problems.

Zinc (the coating on cable tray) when regularly 'splashed' with salt water (or even damp sea air) would 'eat' Nylon cable ties.

Changing the Nylon fixings to Stainless Steel improved the situation but - other problems developed with 'crevice corrosion' causing huge issues.

Lloyds Register of Shipping ( the approval authority for both Ships and Oil Rigs) then specified that one-in-three fixings should be stainless steel (grade 316) and the other two shall be Nylon 11 (non hydroscopic) (not the standard Nylon cable ties which are Nylon 66 and are hydroscopic))

Edited September 20, 2015 by Alan de Enfield

[Ray T]

If the boat has been in a marina connected to the mains you may want the check whether it has an isolation transformer or a galvanic isolator.

[Tecka]

 

Anywhere when you have two (or more) dissimilar metals in water you will generate electrical discharge between the anode and cathode - this will cause erosion of the 'lowest' (on the noble scale). To prevent (or reduce) this you need to introduce a metal even lower down the scale - these are the anodes.

 

Again I knew the basics, although thank you again.

 

 

 

If a boat is in a Marina then not only is it subject to the above erosion, but there can be 'stray' currents from other boats faulty wiring, the mains hook up system etc etc. There is a huge melting pot of 'soup' in a marina with Zinc plated pilings, steel structures, boats hooked up to the mains etc etc.

 

So reading between the lines the answer to my question is yes the pitting is more likely to occur in a marina and is the reason why they are a requirement within one. Although it appears to be not the only requirement...........

 

 

In a marina, not only do you need anodes, you need a galvanic isolator as well.

 

 

If the boat has been in a marina connected to the mains you may want the check whether it has an isolation transformer or a galvanic isolator.

 

Is this possible once at a broker, do I need to look for a piece of kit on the boat somewhere?

[Ray T]

 

Is this possible once at a broker, do I need to look for a piece of kit on the boat somewhere?

 

May look like any of these:

 

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=galvanic+isolator&view=detailv2&&id=F9DBF89CD702DE0A248C89B70797D768592F07AB&selectedIndex=3&ccid=YwkE3XN2&simid=608003671449667529&thid=OIP.M630904dd73765887a6d0714c1bb683d7o0&ajaxhist=0

 

Or these:

 

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=marine+isolation+transformer&view=detailv2&&id=F2B610F9EB23CFAC60D872769BBEDE02F80B4CC7&selectedIndex=4&ccid=BZf9nr8g&simid=608056181716749615&thid=OIP.M0597fd9ebf20c6e60c66fad2c2b81663o0&ajaxhist=0

 

Ask the surveyor if you are having the boat surveyed.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Ray T

[Tecka]

 

May look like any of these:

 

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=galvanic+isolator&view=detailv2&&id=F9DBF89CD702DE0A248C89B70797D768592F07AB&selectedIndex=3&ccid=YwkE3XN2&simid=608003671449667529&thid=OIP.M630904dd73765887a6d0714c1bb683d7o0&ajaxhist=0

 

Or these:

 

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=marine+isolation+transformer&view=detailv2&&id=F2B610F9EB23CFAC60D872769BBEDE02F80B4CC7&selectedIndex=4&ccid=BZf9nr8g&simid=608056181716749615&thid=OIP.M0597fd9ebf20c6e60c66fad2c2b81663o0&ajaxhist=0

 

Awesome, thanks. Didn't spot anything on Friday but then I wasn't looking...... Will have a look tomorrow.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

Again I knew the basics, although thank you again.

 

 

 

So reading between the lines the answer to my question is yes the pitting is more likely to occur in a marina and is the reason why they are a requirement within one. Although it appears to be not the only requirement...........

 

 

 

 

Is this possible once at a broker, do I need to look for a piece of kit on the boat somewhere?

 

It / They should (normally) be within a couple of feet of where the 'land line' enters into the boat.

 

Edit to add "Normally" before someone says theirs is 3 feet.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Alan de Enfield