CART Refusing to licence boats

[Jerra]

 

No, all that they've done is to publish some very unspecific tripe about what may or may not to be acceptable in terms of mileage only.

They have as I understand it stated what range would not be acceptable if I remember it was in the region of 20 miles.

 

Surely that is more or less what you suggested. A range larger than you could easily return from in a day (ish). Your suggestion of greater than somebody day cruising or weekending might do.

 

Am I picking you or CRT up wrongly?

[jenlyn]

 

OK, that's quite a good starting point and a reasonable "rule of Thumb"

 

The devil is, of course, in the detail!

 

If the boundary condition is that your cruising pattern must be such that a return to a fixed spot would be impractical, then the immediate question I would ask is "how many cruising hours makes a return impossible", and I then (in my mind) turn to how that would look in the area that I am moored.

 

Now, I rather like long days boating, so a 10 hour day isn't out of the ordinary for me, and I've done longer. But I do recognise that this isn't what suits others.

 

Equally, some people like a 2 hour day, and that is fair enough in terms of what they do.

 

However, if we are trying to measure the practicality of return to a home mooring, I would suggest that neither extreme is the appropriate measure. I would suggest that we base this on a 7 hour day.

 

Let's also assume a speed of 3 lock-miles per hour.

 

That would give us a cruising range of 21 lock-miles either side of a notional central point in the range, or a total cruising range of 42 lock-miles, lets say 40 lock miles for round numbers.

 

If your cruising range is less than this, it is clearly practical for you to return to a permanent mooring in the centre of that range in a single day.

 

There is also the question of what period this should be measured over.

 

As it is permitted to remain in one place for 14 days, it would (in my view) be unreasonable to look at a single month and say "all your cruising has been in a 40 mile range". However, it would also be unreasonable for a boater to remain in a small range for 11 months and then undertake one long cruise to extend that range,

 

I would suggest that it would be reasonable to expect movement outside the minimum range measured over any 3 consecutive calendar months.

 

So, for a new CCer, they would look at;

 

1-3

2-4

3-5

....

10-12

 

Then when the licence is renewed;

 

11,12,1

12,1,2

1-3

2-4

You obviously fail in attempting to understand ccing, much the same as CRT.

(not having a dig by saying that).

[Murflynn]

First let me stress this is a personal view of how I see the moral side of the argument

 

If your cruising pattern is such that you stay within an area that a boat would, if it was only used for days/weekends out throughout the license period then you should have a mooring.

If you cover an area such that it would not be possible to return to a fixed spot, with this or similar pattern of movement then you needn't.

I reckon that anyone who DOESN'T wholeheartedly agree with that premise is a P155 taker.

[John V]

You obviously fail in attempting to understand ccing, much the same as CRT.

(not having a dig by saying that).

 

(also not having a dig) Could you explain please?......my idea of CCing is that you travel so far that you would not either wish or be able to constantly return to a fixed point and would therefore be wasting your money and/or a space that someone else could be using. Does that differ from yours?

[jenlyn]

I reckon that anyone who DOESN'T wholeheartedly agree with that premise is a P155 taker.

I reckon there are a few on here

 

pisstaker

literally someone who takes the piss, i.e. someone who mocks something or somebody

 

(also not having a dig) Could you explain please?......my idea of CCing is that you travel so far that you would not either wish or be able to constantly return to a fixed point and would therefore be wasting your money and/or a space that someone else could be using. Does that differ from yours?

I pull my pins, and more often than not have no set plan on where I will go next, how far I will travel, or how many hours I will run for.

Many ccers do this, it's part of the lifestyle.

 

This below is not acceptable. I could quite reasonably, and legally for example, take 3 months to go from fenny stratford to cosgrove. On my way to Leamington spa.

I would suggest that it would be reasonable to expect movement outside the minimum range measured over any 3 consecutive calendar months.

Edited August 25, 2015 by jenlyn

[John V]

I pull my pins, and more often than not have no set plan on where I will go next, how far I will travel, or how many hours I will run for.

Many ccers do this, it's part of the lifestyle.

 

That I understand but presumably over the period of a year you would travel a considerable distance and range quite a long way from a given fixed point. That would also be my understanding of a CCer

[jenlyn]

 

That I understand but presumably over the period of a year you would travel a considerable distance and range quite a long way from a given fixed point. That would also be my understanding of a CCer

I agree with your post earlier, along with Tony And the others.

I just disagree with what Dave said as I have explained in my last post.

[jenlyn]

The problem is, crt, and several on here have views on ccing. They then make decisions from those views.

The end result will never be acceptable to ccers, because nobody actually bothered in most cases to ask of their thoughts.

[Dave_P]

 

I'm unsure of what point you're making.

No particular point other than everyone's situation is different. In terms of cruising range and distance covered, I easily meet the cc criteria but I choose to have a mooring.

 

I fI was looking to make a point, I might say:- tightening up the T&Cs for people with a home mooring could, in the long run, encourage me to give up my mooring.

 

But that's a discussion for another day.

[mayalld]

You obviously fail in attempting to understand ccing, much the same as CRT.

(not having a dig by saying that).

 

So explain it to me!

 

I do appreciate that in large part it is a desire to NOT be constrained by rules and regulations, but that desire has to be balanced by the fact that it is not practical for everybody to just opt to annexe a bit of towpath for themselves.

 

So, the policy here isn't based on what people WANT, in terms of not being tied to a particular mooring, but in terms of it being manifestly unreasonable to require certain people to have a mooring.

 

There is a difference between those who don't WANT to return to a home mooring, because they don't like it, but could actually do so, and those who aren't in a position to return to a home mooring even if they wanted to, because no matter where you put that mooring, they are going to be too far from it.

[jenlyn]

 

So explain it to me!

 

I do appreciate that in large part it is a desire to NOT be constrained by rules and regulations, but that desire has to be balanced by the fact that it is not practical for everybody to just opt to annexe a bit of towpath for themselves.

 

So, the policy here isn't based on what people WANT, in terms of not being tied to a particular mooring, but in terms of it being manifestly unreasonable to require certain people to have a mooring.

 

There is a difference between those who don't WANT to return to a home mooring, because they don't like it, but could actually do so, and those who aren't in a position to return to a home mooring even if they wanted to, because no matter where you put that mooring, they are going to be too far from it.

None of that ^^^^^ actually addresses what I stated was my concern does it. You've just gone off on one again. Pointless.

[NB Lola]

Is this not about fairness? If cmers prevail and are constant moorers, does that not imply unfairness to those who pay for moorings, marina or inline where little service value is provided like at Fradley. Or am I mistaken or at fault for keeping this simple?

[Steilsteven]

Not sure whether or not I agree with anything said in this thread.

 

After 8 years on a mooring and following my retirement, we decided we'd like to move about rather than have to return to the same spot all the time. So we gave up the mooring and informed CRT that we would be continuous cruisers from now on. Since then ( March ), we have moored at 6 locations on the Kennet for durations ranging from a few days to just under two weeks, we've also done much the same on the Thames. It could be argued that most of these locations were within a days cruising of our old mooring so does that mean we're piss taking, as so eloquently put by some here?

 

We set out to cruise 3 hours per week to wherever that takes us, sometimes, obviously, it's more sometimes less.

We do it because we like being able to stop and get to know different places and because, after a few days, we get itchy feet.

 

Keith

[mayalld]

None of that ^^^^^ actually addresses what I stated was my concern does it. You've just gone off on one again. Pointless.

 

No, because I typed it beore you typed what your concern was, so as to answer a point that others have raised previously, and I don't do time travel!

 

As you have now mentioned your concern, I will reply to it

[John V]

Not sure whether or not I agree with anything said in this thread.

 

After 8 years on a mooring and following my retirement, we decided we'd like to move about rather than have to return to the same spot all the time. So we gave up the mooring and informed CRT that we would be continuous cruisers from now on. Since then ( March ), we have moored at 6 locations on the Kennet for durations ranging from a few days to just under two weeks, we've also done much the same on the Thames. It could be argued that most of these locations were within a days cruising of our old mooring so does that mean we're piss taking, as so eloquently put by some here?

 

We set out to cruise 3 hours per week to wherever that takes us, sometimes, obviously, it's more sometimes less.

We do it because we like being able to stop and get to know different places and because, after a few days, we get itchy feet.

 

Keith

 

Keith, I am not sure I understand your post......are you saying that in 6 months of travel at 3 hrs a week you are still within 20 or so miles of your starting point ? and that within the next 6 months you still will be in a days cruise of your starting point ? I don't wish to be sarcastic but bow hauling should be faster

[mayalld]

I pull my pins, and more often than not have no set plan on where I will go next, how far I will travel, or how many hours I will run for.

Many ccers do this, it's part of the lifestyle.

 

This below is not acceptable. I could quite reasonably, and legally for example, take 3 months to go from fenny stratford to cosgrove. On my way to Leamington spa.

I would suggest that it would be reasonable to expect movement outside the minimum range measured over any 3 consecutive calendar months.

 

OK, that's great. Your post shows that there might be a legitimate cruising pattern that would fall foul of what I proposed.

 

That is fine. I'm not a CCer, so I don't know the subject as well as a CCer might. You are a CCer, and you can provide input to avoid these issues.

 

So, does a different timescale work, or perhaps we have something that says;

 

Over any 3 month period, the minimum range is 10 miles.

Over any 4 month period, the minimum range is 20 miles.

Over any 5 month period, the minimum range is 30 miles.

Over any 6 month period, the minimum range is 40 miles.

 

Allowing for periods of little movement, but not excessively prolonged periods.

 

You might not believe it, but I would hope that CCers could participate by proposing reasonable solutions that accomodate their lifestyles, without becoming an effective carte blanche to stay put in the same place forever.

[bassplayer]

 

OK, that's great. Your post shows that there might be a legitimate cruising pattern that would fall foul of what I proposed.

 

That is fine. I'm not a CCer, so I don't know the subject as well as a CCer might. You are a CCer, and you can provide input to avoid these issues.

 

So, does a different timescale work, or perhaps we have something that says;

 

Over any 3 month period, the minimum range is 10 miles.

Over any 4 month period, the minimum range is 20 miles.

Over any 5 month period, the minimum range is 30 miles.

Over any 6 month period, the minimum range is 40 miles.

 

Allowing for periods of little movement, but not excessively prolonged periods.

 

You might not believe it, but I would hope that CCers could participate by proposing reasonable solutions that accomodate their lifestyles, without becoming an effective carte blanche to stay put in the same place forever.

I think it would be better if some people would just mind their own buisness and let us get on with enjoying our lives.

[Steilsteven]

 

Keith, I am not sure I understand your post......are you saying that in 6 months of travel at 3 hrs a week you are still within 20 or so miles of your starting point ? and that within the next 6 months you still will be in a days cruise of your starting point ? I don't wish to be sarcastic but bow hauling should be faster

Yes and no. The first few weeks took us about 16 miles from the starting point after which we turned around and eventually passed the starting point, then we left CRT waters and spent time on the Thames. We then had to return to a boatyard on the Kennet for some work to be carried out and then we returned to the Thames where we are now. Don't know where the next six months will take us, the plan is there is no plan.

 

There are plenty of people who will tell you about the vast mileages that I've boated in the past ( for instance, Reading to Ellesmere Port within 6 days with a pair of working boats and a crew of three ) but I've done all that and no longer feel the need.

 

Keith

[jenlyn]

 

OK, that's great. Your post shows that there might be a legitimate cruising pattern that would fall foul of what I proposed.

 

That is fine. I'm not a CCer, so I don't know the subject as well as a CCer might. You are a CCer, and you can provide input to avoid these issues.

 

So, does a different timescale work, or perhaps we have something that says;

 

Over any 3 month period, the minimum range is 10 miles.

Over any 4 month period, the minimum range is 20 miles.

Over any 5 month period, the minimum range is 30 miles.

Over any 6 month period, the minimum range is 40 miles.

 

Allowing for periods of little movement, but not excessively prolonged periods.

 

You might not believe it, but I would hope that CCers could participate by proposing reasonable solutions that accomodate their lifestyles, without becoming an effective carte blanche to stay put in the same place forever.

Perhaps I should start advising Crt on boats with home moorings?

I have a great idea for tokens being issued with licences of home moorers.

[mayalld]

I think it would be better if some people would just mind their own buisness and let us get on with enjoying our lives.

 

That's the problem.

 

You don't seem to want an answer.

 

You just want to be allowed to do as you wish, with nothing to define what the criteria is that decides who is and isn't obliged to have a home mooring.

 

That isn't sustainable, and neither is hiding your head in the sand and failing to engage.

 

One thing that you can be sure of is that if CCers contribute nothing other than "leave us alone", the rules will end up written by those who don't get it.

[bassplayer]

 

That's the problem.

 

You don't seem to want an answer.

 

You just want to be allowed to do as you wish, with nothing to define what the criteria is that decides who is and isn't obliged to have a home mooring.

 

That isn't sustainable, and neither is hiding your head in the sand and failing to engage.

 

One thing that you can be sure of is that if CCers contribute nothing other than "leave us alone", the rules will end up written by those who don't get it.

Alternatively it's people like you who are creating noise which causes the rest of us greif with CRT

[mayalld]

Perhaps I should start advising Crt on boats with home moorings?

I have a great idea for tokens being issued with licences of home moorers.

 

That would be an interesting idea, and I would be delighted to discuss the practicalities of it with you.

 

Clearly, as Home Moorers and CCers pay the same price for licences, they would each get the same number of inclusive overnight mooring tokens, and then have to buy more if they needed them

400 tokens per boat.

 

Mooring to the towpath = 1 token per night

Mooring to a 8-14 day VM = 2 tokens per night

Mooring to a 5-7 day VM = 3 tokens per night

Mooring to a 2-4 day VM = 4 tokens per night

Mooring to a 24 hour VM = 5 tokens per night

Mooring beyond the permitted time = 10 tokens for the first 24 hours, and 20 tokens for each additional 24 hours.

 

 

Additional tokens £5 each.

 

I don't think it would work, but let us discuss it.

Alternatively it's people like you who are creating noise which causes the rest of us greif with CRT

 

Ah, right.

 

So, the problem isn't that a significant number of people are signing up for one thing and then not actually keeping their end of the bargain.

 

It's all about the nasty people who actually point out that they are doing it.

[Steilsteven]

 

 

 

 

 

Ah, right.

 

So, the problem isn't that a significant number of people are signing up for one thing and then not actually keeping their end of the bargain.

 

It's all about the nasty people who actually point out that they are doing it.

 

 

No, it's that the ''problem'' is perceived by some to be significant.

 

Keith

[John V]

Yes and no. The first few weeks took us about 16 miles from the starting point after which we turned around and eventually passed the starting point, then we left CRT waters and spent time on the Thames. We then had to return to a boatyard on the Kennet for some work to be carried out and then we returned to the Thames where we are now. Don't know where the next six months will take us, the plan is there is no plan. snip<

 

 

Ok Keith now I understand, though I suspect that even in your truncated cruising in the past 6 months by being off CRT waters you would probably fit in.....even so I doubt you would have trouble doing a pattern like that as a couple of days leisurely wandering would probably take you over the distance (especially as you have another 6 months to fit it in). It is not a particularly rigorous requirement but I do get your point . It would help sort out some of the real CMers though. I might be wrong but I don't think in the long term it's good for the system, to be looked at as "Housing" as opposed to "Navigation" as some seem to think

[jenlyn]

 

 

 

No, it's that the ''problem'' is perceived by some to be significant.

 

Keith

 

Yes ^^^^^^