Winter moorings update

[bramley]

 

Are any listed in central London then?

 

I thought they explicitly said they had withdrawn any option of winter moorings being offered in central London?

sorry i just used london as example. i.e the most expensive mornings on the cut

[magnetman]

Apparently the new residential moorings (Nb only) near Hackney on an offside pontoon all sold in 2 minutes. 11 moorings at £9k a year or something and no wide beans. I can hear cash registers bells

Just out of interest is Paddington counted as central London or is that no suburbs?

Don't know as I have never been by boat but it is pretty central. AFAIK they are serviced moorings so maybe a different thing to towpath.

[cotswoldsman]

 

Are any listed in central London then?

 

I thought they explicitly said they had withdrawn any option of winter moorings being offered in central London?

I think they have had a change of mind or so I am hearing I think Paddington and a couple of other sites are being offered but just hearsay

Apparently the new residential moorings (Nb only) near Hackney on an offside pontoon all sold in 2 minutes. 11 moorings at £9k a year or something and no wide beans. I can hear cash registers bells

 

Don't know as I have never been by boat but it is pretty central. AFAIK they are serviced moorings so maybe a different thing to towpath.

Serviced? With what mooring hooks?

[magnetman]

I thought they had water and electric but I have never been there.. Paddington basin

An assumption

[cotswoldsman]

Just looked at the new sites and seem to be quite a few in London now

I thought they had water and electric but I have never been there.. Paddington basin

An assumption

No they don't

[Hawthorn]

I posted some time ago about the necessity of residential planning permission for a liveaboard mooring of more than 28 days duration - it was widely dismissed by a number of people because :-

 

a) It was allegedly not a legal requirement

b ) Who would collect the money

c) By the time they got around to collecting the money you'd be long gone,

 

Here is an extract from AINA :-

 

3.1.2 The need for planning permission for moorings used by vessels or floating structures in residential use

As discussed earlier, various different types of vessels or floating structures may be in residential use; that is, in use as a person’s sole or main residence.

The question that arises is whether the mooring of such a vessel requires planning permission as a material change in the use of land. The point at which the mooring of a residential boat on a waterway departs from an ancillary use of the waterway (which usually would not need planning permission) and moves to a material change to residential use (which usually would need planning permission) needs to be decided on the basis of fact and degree as well as the particular circumstances of a case. The use of the mooring for this purpose is not included in any of the classes prescribed in the Use Classes Order. It is therefore sui generis (not C3 Dwellinghouses).

In this context it is also worth noting that planning permission is usually not required where the residential use of a mooring is for no more than 28 days in any calendar year, since such temporary use is permitted development under Part 4 of the GPDO13.

 

It should be noted that Planning Permission is NOT for the boat but for the Land to which the boat is moored, hence C&RT would be subject to any PP enforcement, or, would be responsible for applying for PP.

I'm interested to know why this contribution to the discussion has been ignored?

[alan_fincher]

For what it is worth, I made it very clear to Richard Parry when he visited the Alvecote event this weekend that I was most unhappy about the cessation of the general tow-path winter permit - this is not something that affects me personally, but I stressed that CRT had apparently been prepared to lose a good revenue stream, and that I doubted they could sell anything like as many at fixed locations.

[jenlyn]

London Grand Union West Drayton 100 £13.50

London Grand Union Brentford 1 126 £13.50

London Grand Union Brentford 2 66 £13.50

London Grand Union Brentford Visitor Mooring 60 £13.50

London Grand Union Cowley/Uxbridge, north of L1 mooring 150 £13.50

London Grand Union Bulls Bridge 1 80 £13.50

London Grand Union Bulls Bridge 2 100 £13.50

London Grand Union, Paddington Arm Kensal Green 125 £13.50

London Grand Union, Paddington Arm Alperton near Atlip Road 460 £13.50

London Grand Union, Paddington Arm Bankside, Uxbridge Rd., Southall 100 £13.50

London Grand Union, Paddington Arm Slough Arm - Basin 100 £13.50

London Grand Union, Paddington Arm Greenford (near Black Horse Visitor Mooring) 160 £13.50

London River Lee, London Ware 100 £13.50

London River Lee, London Stanstead Abbotts 130 £13.50

London River Lee, London Rye House

[magnetman]

Just looked at the new sites and seem to be quite a few in London now

 

No they don't

Thanks for the correction

 

More winter mooring sites in "central london" ?

 

London has many definitions - some people think Middlesex is London. Not sure what CRT define as central but I think it is broadly in line with zone 1 and 2 on public transport .

 

Probably wrong again

Re Jenlyn's post:

 

Kensal green is the most central of those and that is on the outer edge of zone 2 iirc

 

So central london is something like Notting Hell through to Limehouse and Hackney wick ish. Just the section of canal which is ripe for a sell off

Edited September 1, 2015 by magnetman

[kris88]

I'm interested to know why this contribution to the discussion has been ignored?

 

Maybe he is on everyone's ignore list

[jenlyn]

For what it is worth, I made it very clear to Richard Parry when he visited the Alvecote event this weekend that I was most unhappy about the cessation of the general tow-path winter permit - this is not something that affects me personally, but I stressed that CRT had apparently been prepared to lose a good revenue stream, and that I doubted they could sell anything like as many at fixed locations.

I suspect it will have gone in one ear, and out the other. (on a continuous cruise).

[alan_fincher]

 

London Grand Union West Drayton 100 £13.50

London Grand Union Brentford 1 126 £13.50

London Grand Union Brentford 2 66 £13.50

London Grand Union Brentford Visitor Mooring 60 £13.50

London Grand Union Cowley/Uxbridge, north of L1 mooring 150 £13.50

London Grand Union Bulls Bridge 1 80 £13.50

London Grand Union Bulls Bridge 2 100 £13.50

London Grand Union, Paddington Arm Kensal Green 125 £13.50

London Grand Union, Paddington Arm Alperton near Atlip Road 460 £13.50

London Grand Union, Paddington Arm Bankside, Uxbridge Rd., Southall 100 £13.50

London Grand Union, Paddington Arm Slough Arm - Basin 100 £13.50

London Grand Union, Paddington Arm Greenford (near Black Horse Visitor Mooring) 160 £13.50

London River Lee, London Ware 100 £13.50

London River Lee, London Stanstead Abbotts 130 £13.50

London River Lee, London Rye House

 

 

Hardly CENTRAL London, then ?

 

Still I would imagine that £13-50 at Kensal (for example) may prove more popular than £13-50 at some of the locations like Cosgrove?

[cotswoldsman]

 

Hardly CENTRAL London, then ?

 

Still I would imagine that £13-50 at Kensal (for example) may prove more popular than £13-50 at some of the locations like Cosgrove?

An improvement from no London moorings.

[alan_fincher]

I suspect it will have gone in one ear, and out the other. (on a continuous cruise).

 

I use any opportunity I can to at least voice a heart felt view - there are not necessarily that many opportunities, but it doesn't stop me trying! If many of us do the same, at least he knows how many of us feel.

 

I think it s important that he realises it is not only those who might have taken up these permits who are unhappy they have been dropped.

An improvement from no London moorings.

 

Indeed!

[Alan de Enfield]

I'm interested to know why this contribution to the discussion has been ignored?

 

Maybe because it is "inconvenient".

 

Last time it was posted I was accused of being anti-boater and (particularly) anti-CCer when I pointed out that C&RT were illegally offering liveaboard moorings and taking 'protection money' to allow you to stay in one place for the Winter.

[jenlyn]

 

I use any opportunity I can to at least voice a heart felt view - there are not necessarily that many opportunities, but it doesn't stop me trying! If many of us do the same, at least he knows how many of us feel.

 

I think it s important that he realises it is not only those who might have taken up these permits who are unhappy they have been dropped.

 

He does not want winter moorings to be in the picture full stop.

Eventually, this will sink in.

[cotswoldsman]

He does not want winter moorings to be in the picture full stop.

Eventually, this will sink in.

Along with not wanting ccers

[Hawthorn]

Maybe he is on everyone's ignore list

Mmmm. Well that's worrying as it suggests that folk are less interested in considering the arguments and only interested in having their own views reflected back to them

[kris88]

Along with not wanting ccers

It's not just cc'ers it's any livaboard boaters, they don't fit in with the theme park model.

 

 

 

 

 

Mmmm. Well that's worrying as it suggests that folk are less interested in considering the arguments and only interested in having their own views reflected back to them

It was a joke!

 

Regards kris

[jenlyn]

Mmmm. Well that's worrying as it suggests that folk are less interested in considering the arguments and only interested in having their own views reflected back to them

Or it could suggest people are getting fed up with being peed upon from a great height and being told it's raining.

 

(that's a joke too)

Edited September 1, 2015 by jenlyn

[Hawthorn]

It's not just cc'ers it's any livaboard boaters, they don't fit in with the theme park model.

 

It was a joke!

Regards kris

No it wasn't 'cos it wasn't funny!

 

So I'll ask again.

 

Why is the point made by the OP being ignored? In case it's been lost, it was the fact that local authority planning permission is required for any dwelling that remains in one spot for more than 28 days. CRT simply do not have the authority to offer winter moorings unless the spot has been given planning permission. It may well be true that in the future even fewer sites will be offered, if CRT decide to seek planning permission for few sites. Problem is,for them, if they do go down this route, then those sites can also be legitimately ( so far as the Town and Country Planning act is concerned) be occupied for more than 28 days in each calendar year, at any time, not just winter. Jenlyn is probably right, they would much prefer not to offer at all. If only they actually took legal advice before they start making policy we'd all know where we were.

[kris88]

No it wasn't 'cos it wasn't funny!

 

We'll I know that humour is subjective, but you seem to have had a sense of humour bypass.

 

 

Regards kris

Edited September 1, 2015 by kris88

[MtB]

No it wasn't 'cos it wasn't funny!

 

So I'll ask again.

 

Why is the point made by the OP being ignored? In case it's been lost, it was the fact that local authority planning permission is required for any dwelling that remains in one spot for more than 28 days. CRT simply do not have the authority to offer winter moorings unless the spot has been given planning permission.

 

 

Well this is complete bobbins of course. PP is only required for a precise location of a boat. Grant a winter mooring for a random place which cannot be guaranteed on a stretch of towpath and the PP regs are neatly sidestepped AIUI.

[cotswoldsman]

 

Winter moorings in 2015/2016 Over the past two years the Trust has been piloting a different approach to its winter moorings, in particular the offer of a general towpath permit that allowed boaters to stay longer than 14 days anywhere of their choosing in a defined area (subject to some minor limitations). Some questions have been raised about the legal status of these general towpath permits. As a consequence, the Trust has taken legal advice and given the issue careful consideration. The Trust has concluded that, whilst the legal position is not definitive, the legal status of the general towpath permit is sufficiently questionable for it not to take the pilot any further. The Trust instead takes the view that if a boater without a home mooring wishes to remain in one place for a longer period then offering a wide range of fixed winter mooring locations across the country, available from one month up to four months, will provide sufficient flexibility for all. By designating Page 2 of 2 which locations, albeit a wide range, are to be available for winter mooring for a month or more, the Trust is also able to manage local relationships that might be concerned with a boat remaining in one place for a longer period.

 

It would seem that some of us purchased a product that was not legal. Where do I apply for my rebate? Well Banks did rebate loads of money for selling PPI.

[Looby Loo]

I would have nothing to gain by taking up a winter mooring. I don't need to stay in one place for work which is why I CC. Most of the sites offered that would potentially be of interest to me would involve a weekly 3 to 4 hour round trip to facilities. Given that, I might as well move on to the next location, passing facilities as I go and not have to pay to moor. Surely lots of CCers will be in a similar position. I'm afraid I don't really understand the point of the winter moorings as offered in areas I am familiar with. I can't speak about areas I don't know. You've still got to cruise in grotty weather to use facilities so what have you gained by paying CRT other than permission to return to the same place. Surely if you CC that's of little interest or benefit to you unless you are in an area where facilities are few and far between, which I'm not. Am I missing something?