Oil For Lister HA & HB Series Air Cooled Engines.

[alan_fincher]

I'm sure there are old threads, (I may have even started one), but I thought it worth starting anew.

 

Both our boats have HA engines, (HA3 in Sickle, HA2 in Flamingo).

 

Under advice from Marine Engine Services, I have been using a 10W/40 (API CC) oil in Sickle since I first changed the oil.

 

However a couple of people have suggested to me recently that this is "modern thinking", but that Lister's original requirement was for a monograde oil. (One suggesting to me that an SAE 30 is correct, and a multigrade not good advice).

 

Having checked an original manual, it does indeed say a monograde, with no mention of a multigrade as an alternative, but SAE 20, not 30, seems to be specified for typical UK temperatures....

 

Up to 40 degrees F (5 degrees C) SAE 10W
Between 40 and 85 degrees F (5 to 30 degrees C) SAE 20/20W

Above 85 degrees F (30 degrees C) SAE 30

 

So what do people actually think, or use in practice these days, please?

What are the advantages / disadvantages of a monograde versus a multigrade.

Would using a 20W oil actually be the way to go? Morris, for example, who can supply it actually say on the information sheet shared by their 10W, 20W, 30, 40 & 50 oils that "SAE 30 and SAE 40 oils are ideal choices for lightly loaded diesel engines used in canal boats, watercraft, older generators (e.g. Lister, Perkins, etc), where they can dramatically reduce the prospect of bore glazing" They don't mention use of SAE 20W in canal boats.

All thoughts welcome, particularly from those who have used a variety of oils in an HA or HB engine.

Thanks.

[Leo No2]

Alan - Union Canal Carriers - in whom I have the utmost faith - recommend 20/W50 which is what we have in Sculptor's engine - in fact changed yesterday.

[by'eck]

Lister make similar recommendation for JP series, i.e SAE 20 low detergent for UK climes. Although Morris list their Golden film in this grade its not so readily available as their SAE 30 which is regarded as fine in a JP at possible expense of hand starting in sub zero temperatures.

 

The greater parameter to consider is the detergency of the oil on engines without full flow oil filtration. In such engines undesirable metal particles need to fall out of harms way to bottom of sump rather than being held in suspension by the detergency of the oil, to be trapped by a filter thats not there. This means no higher than API CD grade, Golden Film single weight oil is API CC.

 

Check out this thread

[NB Alton]

Straight 20 or 30 oil is generally recommended for the reasons given above (low detergent CC grade). Although SAE 20 is specified often 30 is chosen for an older engine (possibly very slightly less leaks or buning). Quite a few people use SAE 30 in summer & 20 in winter (easier starting). As also said above other folk use SAE 20W/50 for many years with out a problem.

 

Cheers, Brian

[Timleech]

I reckon SAE 30 is not so good in an H series engine, if you can't find a suitable sae20 then go for the Morris Golden Film CC multigrade. Midland Swindlers keep it. Not cheap, though.

 

Tim

[alan_fincher]

I reckon SAE 30 is not so good in an H series engine, if you can't find a suitable sae20 then go for the Morris Golden Film CC multigrade. Midland Swindlers keep it. Not cheap, though.

 

Tim

 

Which one Tim, please?

 

The 10W/40, as suggested by Marine Engine Services, or the 20W/50 some are suggesting above?

 

Flamingo's engine is a bit of a mystery, as it is supposed to have had a lot of bottom end work done recently, and has a very good oil pressure when cold. However after a longish thrash the pressure can be really quite low, so I'm reluctant to put anything too thin in, in case it makes it even lower!

[larkshall]

I'm sure there are old threads, (I may have even started one), but I thought it worth starting anew.

 

Both our boats have HA engines, (HA3 in Sickle, HA2 in Flamingo).

 

Under advice from Marine Engine Services, I have been using a 10W/40 (API CC) oil in Sickle since I first changed the oil.

 

However a couple of people have suggested to me recently that this is "modern thinking", but that Lister's original requirement was for a monograde oil. (One suggesting to me that an SAE 30 is correct, and a multigrade not good advice).

 

Having checked an original manual, it does indeed say a monograde, with no mention of a multigrade as an alternative, but SAE 20, not 30, seems to be specified for typical UK temperatures....

 

 

 

So what do people actually think, or use in practice these days, please?

What are the advantages / disadvantages of a monograde versus a multigrade.

Would using a 20W oil actually be the way to go? Morris, for example, who can supply it actually say on the information sheet shared by their 10W, 20W, 30, 40 & 50 oils that "SAE 30 and SAE 40 oils are ideal choices for lightly loaded diesel engines used in canal boats, watercraft, older generators (e.g. Lister, Perkins, etc), where they can dramatically reduce the prospect of bore glazing" They don't mention use of SAE 20W in canal boats.

All thoughts welcome, particularly from those who have used a variety of oils in an HA or HB engine.

Thanks.

I get around the agricultural shows a lot. The old engines I encounter there mostly use SAE20 or SAE30 monograde oils this includes Listers. On discussion with the owners it appears modern oils are to thin, and include additives which can damage oil seals. Additionally the engineering tolerances where much wider then, and modern oils don't provide enough protection. But funnily enough the SAE 30 oils Seem to be more often used in air cooled, and the. 20 used in water cooled. I can't remember why. Morris oils seem very popular

[larkshall]

I'll ask for you I'm at a show next week Morris oils will be there as will Castrol Classic oil it's the big Pikering show

[Neil Smith]

Why lister use to recommend mono grade oil is because multi grade was not invented until about 1960 so they never had a choice, hence why a lot of people put 20 grade in the winter and the thicker 30 grade in summer. but now we have a choice one oil can be used all year as long as its low grade like cc.

 

Neil

[alan_fincher]

Why lister use to recommend mono grade oil is because multi grade was not invented until about 1960 so they never had a choice, hence why a lot of people put 20 grade in the winter and the thicker 30 grade in summer. but now we have a choice one oil can be used all year as long as its low grade like cc.

 

Neil

 

But I am quoting from a 1965 published manual, so if you are correct about that date, it should/could have been an option.

[by'eck]

Why lister use to recommend mono grade oil is because multi grade was not invented until about 1960 so they never had a choice, hence why a lot of people put 20 grade in the winter and the thicker 30 grade in summer. but now we have a choice one oil can be used all year as long as its low grade like cc.

 

Neil

 

Nevertheless there is a school of though that suggests viscosity extenders and other additives in multi-grade oil may break down at high temperatures, so straight grade is preferred in some cases, particularly with air cooled engines. My old 911S certainly required straight grade oil as do many piston engined aircraft.

[steamraiser2]

Why lister use to recommend mono grade oil is because multi grade was not invented until about 1960 so they never had a choice, hence why a lot of people put 20 grade in the winter and the thicker 30 grade in summer. but now we have a choice one oil can be used all year as long as its low grade like cc.

 

Neil

That is not entirely correct. Lister last re-issued the operators handbook for JP/JK & JS in around 1970. Multigrades were available by then but Lister still recommended straight SAE 20 or SAE 30 CC for general use in the UK. A JP/K/S in good order is quite happy on SAE 20 but, unless you intend to hand start in the depths of winter ,the SAE30 grade is a better bet especially if your oil pressure is low at idle when hot.

 

Morris Golden Film is a great oil but it is expensive but there are others out there which perform equally well. I would be more concerned about the detergency grade than if the oil was a multi grade. What old Listers do not need is a high detergency oil which is entirely the wrong thing. But with Golden Film , and the alternative monogrades, easily available it is s far better plan to stick with the manufacturer recommended grades than take chances.

[alan_fincher]

That is not entirely correct. Lister last re-issued the operators handbook for JP/JK & JS in around 1970. Multigrades were available by then but Lister still recommended straight SAE 20 or SAE 30 CC for general use in the UK. A JP/K/S in good order is quite happy on SAE 20 but, unless you intend to hand start in the depths of winter ,the SAE30 grade is a better bet especially if your oil pressure is low at idle when hot.

 

Hmmm,

 

From the oil container in the engine room when I bought Flamingo, it is probably already on an SAE 30 monograde.

 

The idle oil pressure is excellent when cold, but fell what I considered alarmingly after a protracted period of working it quite hard.

 

It certainly doesn't sound like I want to put a thinner monograde in, does it?

 

From some of the earlier posts I was becoming tempted by the 20W/50 multigrade suggestion, because my limited understanding is that the oil should perform more like a thicker 50 grade when hot, and hence I though might show a greater pressure than with the 30 monograde. Is that a bad idea then?

[Neil Smith]

That is not entirely correct. Lister last re-issued the operators handbook for JP/JK & JS in around 1970. Multigrades were available by then but Lister still recommended straight SAE 20 or SAE 30 CC for general use in the UK. A JP/K/S in good order is quite happy on SAE 20 but, unless you intend to hand start in the depths of winter ,the SAE30 grade is a better bet especially if your oil pressure is low at idle when hot.

 

Morris Golden Film is a great oil but it is expensive but there are others out there which perform equally well. I would be more concerned about the detergency grade than if the oil was a multi grade. What old Listers do not need is a high detergency oil which is entirely the wrong thing. But with Golden Film , and the alternative monogrades, easily available it is s far better plan to stick with the manufacturer recommended grades than take chances.

 

Wrong way round, in winter when cold the sae 20 would be better as it is thinner so would aid hand cranking.

 

Neil

[by'eck]

 

Wrong way round, in winter when cold the sae 20 would be better as it is thinner so would aid hand cranking.

 

Neil

 

Isn't that what steamraiser suggested??

[David Schweizer]

If you do decide to use SAE 30 Alan, I still have the 5 litre container of Morris SAE 30 which you gave me a couple of years ago, before I decided to change to multi grade oil (BMC 1.5, not slow revving Lister)

[alan_fincher]

 

Wrong way round, in winter when cold the sae 20 would be better as it is thinner so would aid hand cranking.

 

Neil

 

That's what I think he has implied, isn't it?

If you do decide to use SAE 30 Alan, I still have the 5 litre container of Morris SAE 30 which you gave me a couple of years ago, before I decided to change to multi grade oil (BMC 1.5, not slow revving Lister)

 

Thanks - I'm now tempted, as I have at least one more here, I think, so 10 litres would be enough for a change.

[Neil Smith]

Sorry I read it as a jp is happy on sae20 unless in winter then sae30 is a better bet, and as that's thicker would give more drag.

 

Neil

[junior]

 

That's what I think he has implied, isn't it?

 

 

Thanks - I'm now tempted, as I have at least one more here, I think, so 10 litres would be enough for a change.

+ a little bit more.

 

10.8 litres isn't it for a HA2? You'd think that they collaborated with the oil manufacturers to ensure you had to but a 3rd bottle just to get the 0.8 of a litre. Not that I'm tight fisted or anything...

[alan_fincher]

+ a little bit more.

 

10.8 litres isn't it for a HA2? You'd think that they collaborated with the oil manufacturers to ensure you had to but a 3rd bottle just to get the 0.8 of a litre. Not that I'm tight fisted or anything...

 

Blimey, you are right, aren't you - just looked it up.

 

I made a duff assumption that as an HA3 uses 12.5 litres, then an HA2 would be no more than 10 litres. So the extra cylinder only adds about 1.7 litres then.

 

 

[Timleech]

+ a little bit more.

 

10.8 litres isn't it for a HA2? You'd think that they collaborated with the oil manufacturers to ensure you had to but a 3rd bottle just to get the 0.8 of a litre. Not that I'm tight fisted or anything...

 

I did an oil change on an HA2 a couple of months ago.

Emptied sump and gearbox with Pela extractor and the original sump pump.

Filled up with 2 x 5l bottles of Morris oil, after running for a bit to refill gearbox and filter it was dead on the full mark.

Of course, you will need more oil for topping up.

 

Tim

[Neil Smith]

The Lister book will say 10.8 litres but that's from a new dry engine, so by the time all the popes and oil ways are full that won't get pumped out then 10 litres will fill it.

 

Neil

[steamraiser2]

 

Wrong way round, in winter when cold the sae 20 would be better as it is thinner so would aid hand cranking.

 

Neil

 

 

SAE20 in the winter if hand starting, SAE30 all year round if electric startiing. SAE30 + Hand Starting + Cold weather = Hard Starting with potential Broken Wrist.!

[alan_fincher]

I'm still torn here, because I am receiving a lot of different advice, despite people seeming well informed!

 

Off the forum several people have suggested the 20W/50 route, which I was previously tempted top follow, but somewhat deterred by some of the comment here. This includes the last person to do serious work on the engine, and who uses 20W/50 in their on HA.

 

So can I please ask again, "why not".

 

Remember I have a very good oil pressure when cold, but not a particularly high one once fully hot. Would the multigrade not help with that?

[madcat]

Morris's straight 30 low detergent oil. Dave Lister HA2 did well on it . No idea what Martin has put in now , probably the same .