What to use on exterior wood (hatches)

[Odana]

We're about to have the decaying linings replaced on our side hatches and rear doors.

What do you recommend to protect wood that gets regular exposure to weather, though isn't permanently exposed?

 

At present the frames and inner doors seem to be peeling polyurethane varnish (sigh), and Easter will be spent sanding and re-doing at the same time as we finish the new linings. I was going to use yacht varnish (looking for a good brand) but a bit of research on google is revealing all sorts of other wood coatings such as traditional varnishes (?) and things like Sadolin wood stain (clear?).

 

We are happy to spend time applying good stuff first time round but are notoriously bad at regular maintenance of such things, so long-lasting and easy to touch up with minimal prep time when tatty always wins over perfect finish. I like a satin, not gloss, finish and it'll have to match the existing oak, or not look startlingly out of place.

 

Any advice welcome! Thanks

[bizzard]

We're about to have the decaying linings replaced on our side hatches and rear doors.

What do you recommend to protect wood that gets regular exposure to weather, though isn't permanently exposed?

 

At present the frames and inner doors seem to be peeling polyurethane varnish (sigh), and Easter will be spent sanding and re-doing at the same time as we finish the new linings. I was going to use yacht varnish (looking for a good brand) but a bit of research on google is revealing all sorts of other wood coatings such as traditional varnishes (?) and things like Sadolin wood stain (clear?).

 

We are happy to spend time applying good stuff first time round but are notoriously bad at regular maintenance of such things, so long-lasting and easy to touch up with minimal prep time when tatty always wins over perfect finish. I like a satin, not gloss, finish and it'll have to match the existing oak, or not look startlingly out of place.

 

Any advice welcome! Thanks

Personally I'd keep feeding the wood with plenty of boiled linseed oil, then leave it to dry for a bit and then whack on exterior Ronseal varnish, Sadolin is good too. I stopped using so called yacht varnishes ages ago, got fed up with having to re-do every year or two. Ronseal seems to last donkeys years.

[pophops]

Personally I'd keep feeding the wood with plenty of boiled linseed oil, then leave it to dry for a bit and then whack on exterior Ronseal varnish, Sadolin is good too. I stopped using so called yacht varnishes ages ago, got fed up with having to re-do every year or two. Ronseal seems to last donkeys years.

 

Are you sure about that Bizz? Instructions for all kinds of finishes usually advise removing any trace of oil or grease before application. It just seems wrong to me to varnish over any surface treated with linseed oil. I'm absolutely no expert and am happy to be corrected.

[bizzard]

 

Are you sure about that Bizz? Instructions for all kinds of finishes usually advise removing any trace of oil or grease before application. It just seems wrong to me to varnish over any surface treated with linseed oil. I'm absolutely no expert and am happy to be corrected.

Oil based Ronseal not water based. I'd be happy with just linseed oil, but most folk want a shiny finish.

[Southern Star]

I'd use International or Ronseal waterproof yacht varnish but I'd thin down the first coat to about 20% varnish, 80% white spirit, this seeps into the wood rather than sitting on top of it, and provides an anchor for subsequent coats. I'd put the second coat on at about a 50/50 mix, the third at 80/20 and then three or four coats at full strength.

[swift1894]

Sikkens. Soaks into the wood. I can't understand why anyone uses any kind of varnish, which creates a skin on the surface of the wood. First scratch and water gets underneath, lifts the skin creating pale patch resulting in the lot having to be rubbed down and re coated, hopefully not with varnish again!

About 3 years later a quick scuff down and another coat of Sikkens.....Job's a gud'n!

Edited March 8, 2015 by swift1894

[Mike Jordan]

I would also advocate the use of the thinned exterior varnish, the only difference being that I prefer to thin 50/50 with white spirit for the first coat.

Many exterior pieces of joinery on narrow boats don't have proper " weathered" top edges, no surface should be left flat to retain rainwater but should have a minimum slope of 9 degrees to encourage water to run off. This problem is evident even on some of the top priced boats.

You say that the hatches and doors are decayed, does this mean that you are making new ones? If so this would be an ideal time to consider changing the material used. I would suggest that you look at the idea of using Iroko as your replacement timber.

A swift google of the name will tell you all you need to know about the material much quicker than my two typing fingers can.

It costs the same as most other hardwoods, its very oily in nature ( so much so that epoxy resin glues are used for joints) and has all the advantages of teak but without the staggering cost.

I made some garden furniture with it in 1996 and its still standing on my soggy lawn today with no sign of deterioration.

Best of luck with the project.

Mike.

[David Schweizer]

First rule - Never, Never use Poluyeurethane on exterior surfaces, it degrades in sunlight, The traditional finish used by proffesional boat builders is still Yacht Varnish, I prefer Blackfriars brand or you could try Le Tonikois, which I have never used but heard good reports about. Oil finishes etc are OK for garden furniture and indoor use etc, but outdoors It soon starts to look scruffy. This is a boat use - the proper stuff

 

Clean off all the old varnish and sand back to good wood, as suggested apply the first coat thinned but only by about 15%, then apply several additional full strength coats (sanding lightly between coats) until a smooth solid coating is achieved. When sanding use something like 400/500 pitch production paper to remove any blemishes etc, and then flatten using ultra fine Scotch pads, dusting off with tack cloths. (all availabe on ebay!) Apply the varnish with a decent brush (I use Purdy brand which are guaranted not to shed bristles) laying off in one direction. With a bit of care you could end up with an almost glass like finish, which will resist scratches and bumps when hardened.

Edited March 8, 2015 by David Schweizer

[smileypete]

A hard wax or exterior wood oil could be another possibility, plenty of choices and reviews here:

 

http://www.wood-finishes-direct.com/product-type/oils

 

I try to choose something versatile enough for other projects, and so help keep the dreaded 'tin count' to a minimum.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

[David Schweizer]

A hard wax or exterior wood oil could be another possibility, plenty of choices and reviews here:

 

http://www.wood-finishes-direct.com/product-type/oils

 

I try to choose something versatile enough for other projects, and so help keep the dreaded 'tin count' to a minimum.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

 

I could never recommend wax for exterior surface, Not only will it degrade very quickly, it will also attract mould which feeds on the natural ingredients in wax, it is designed fro use on furniture in a normal domestic environment, It will even develop mould in a cold loft.

Edited March 8, 2015 by David Schweizer

[GUMPY]

Varnish spit spit spit.

 

I use Danish oil, on new wood there is minimal prep needed, after sanding just wipe with a cloth and white spirit.

Minimum of 4 coats for exterior use but its just wipe or brush on then wipe off excess, I am using 10 coats on my new cratch board, have done 3 this weekend, 2 a day is easy as its 5hrs between coats.

Every year or so just wipe over with an oil soaked cloth and it looks like new.

I use it on wooden kitchen worktops as well, creates a beautiful semi-gloss sheen.

[David Schweizer]

Varnish spit spit spit.

 

I use Danish oil, on new wood there is minimal prep needed, after sanding just wipe with a cloth and white spirit.

Minimum of 4 coats for exterior use but its just wipe or brush on then wipe off excess, I am using 10 coats on my new cratch board, have done 3 this weekend, 2 a day is easy as its 5hrs between coats.

Every year or so just wipe over with an oil soaked cloth and it looks like new.

I use it on wooden kitchen worktops as well, creates a beautiful semi-gloss sheen.

 

The problem with things like Danish Oil is that they are not a permanent finish, and require constant re-application. The other issue with Danish Oil, as I have sought to explain many times in the past, is that whiilst there is an industry standard for most varnishes, there is really no such thing for Danish Oil, It is just a generic term for a mixture of natural and synthetic oils with some (unspecified) sort of liquid dryers added. Each manufacturer will have their own formula and whilst some will do a good enough job, others are really not very good at all.

[GUMPY]

 

The problem with things like Danish Oil is that they are not a permanent finish, and require constant re-application. The other issue with Danish Oil, as I have sought to explain many times in the past, is that whiilst there is an industry standard for most varnishes, there is really no such thing for Danish Oil, It is just a generic term for a mixture of natural and synthetic oils with some (unspecified) sort of liquid dryers added. Each manufacturer will have their own formula and whilst some will do a good enough job, others are really not very good at all.

Whilst what you say is undoubtedly true it is far easier to get and keep a good finish with Danish oil than it is with any varnish. Anyway how do you get a varnish to stick to a hardwood that is naturally oily?

Varnish is the same there are some good and some bad and is also not a permanent finish as it usually peels...

Edited March 8, 2015 by Loddon

[Loafer]

Sikkens. Soaks into the wood. I can't understand why anyone uses any kind of varnish, which creates a skin on the surface of the wood. First scratch and water gets underneath, lifts the skin creating pale patch resulting in the lot having to be rubbed down and re coated, hopefully not with varnish again!

About 3 years later a quick scuff down and another coat of Sikkens.....Job's a gud'n!

 

Another vote for Sikkens.

 

My first boat was a Norfolk Gypsy that had 'Sikkenned' woodwork and it was bombproof. If you can be bothered, you can just keep slapping fresh on, without any preparation at all.

 

Slight satin sheen and looks gorgeous.

[David Schweizer]

Whilst what you say is undoubtedly true it is far easier to get and keep a good finish with Danish oil than it is with any varnish. Anyway how do you get a varnish to stick to a hardwood that is naturally oily?

Varnish is the same there are some good and some bad and is also not a permanent finish as it usually peels...

 

I have an issue with "modern" exotic Hardwoods, not only because of Rain Forest destruction, but also because they are virtually impossible to glue using conventional wood glues, and do not take varnish readily. Theoreticly they do not require any finishing as the are supposedly resistant to damage by water, but unfinished they tend to grey very quickly is which is probably why Danish Oil etc is so popular to preserve appearance.

 

If you want to apply varnish to an oily wood you need to prepare the timber properly first by sanding and then rubbing down with something like acetone to remove the surface oil before applying the varnish, but do it immediately before there is any chance for more oil to migrate to the surface.

 

Personally, the only exotic hardwoods I am likey to ever use are Rosewood, Ebony, or Lignum Vitae, but none of those are suitable for large structural applications. I do not particularly like timbers like Iroko and Cocobola because of their grain formation and the inconsistencey with colour. I prefer working with traditional European hardwoods, and South American Mahoganies all of which glue readily with water base glues and take varnishing readily. Call me old fashioned but there we are.

 

As for the quality of varnish, I have not found any that were wanting, certainly all the well known spirit based brands perform well, although my favorite is the slightly less well known Blackfriars. Even "in house" brands seem to perform more than adequately, they are probably made by one of the bigger brand companies anyway! If you have found varnish peeling, either the wrong product has been used for the location, or the surface has not been prepared adequately. The surfaces need to be sanded down and wiped with white spirit to provide a key before varnishing, and then lightly sanded abetween coats. Polyeurethane varnish will degrade in sunlight and is therefore unsuitable for exterior use ( despite the lack of such advice on tins), and any water based varnish will disintegrate on any exterior surface within a short period, and should be avoided at all cost.

 

And a final point, if you think it is easier to keep a good finish with Danish Oil rather than any varnish, may I suggest you have a look at the solid mahogany front cabin door on our boat, a glass like finish which just needs the occassional wipe down with a cloth to remove dust or mud. I would challenge any rubbed oil to produce such a good finish. It has been stripped and re-varnished only once in over thirty years.

Edited March 8, 2015 by David Schweizer

[smileypete]

 

I could never recommend wax for exterior surface, Not only will it degrade very quickly, it will also attract mould which feeds on the natural ingredients in wax, it is designed fro use on furniture in a normal domestic environment, It will even develop mould in a cold loft.

 

So you would never wax polish a boat?

 

The waxes used in hard wax oil are similar if not identical, but it depends on how often/long Odana keeps the doors open as it won't contain UV absorbers.

 

Things change, new products come along. When Sikkens came out a long time ago I bet some traditionalists initially considered it voodoo. But it has it's place... (as varnish does, though it's much misunderstood.)

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited March 8, 2015 by smileypete

[Naughty Cal]

We have treated our Teak in the cockpit with Semco.

 

Leaves a matt, natural finish but water just sits on the wood and doesn't soak in.

 

We are really pleased with it. Not cheap though.

[Odana]

Yep, the one-scratch-and-it-peels issue with varnish is what worries me, because I will not rush in with a paintbrush to tidy it up until long after it has decayed. The inner doors are glazed and will be enough of a pig to sand down to redo. We did the floors and new furniture inside with Polyxoil and love it (both to apply and to look at), but it isn't resistant enough for weathered areas. Will investigate this Sikkens stuff - there seem to be many many types to choose from.

 

Inside the boat is oak faced, so we'd like summat vaguely matching. Carpenter is investigating resistant ply options but I am OK to go for solid something if the cost isn't too staggering. The current linings were edged oak faced ply and were only just rotting at the bottoms after 9 years - seems a reasonable lifespan to me.

[Naughty Cal]

This is the finish with Semco.

 

 

Application is simply brush or sponge on, once every 6-12 months.

[David Schweizer]

 

So you would never wax polish a boat?

 

The waxes used in hard wax oil are similar if not identical, but it depends on how often/long Odana keeps the doors open as it won't contain UV absorbers.

 

Things change, new products come along. When Sikkens came out a long time ago I bet some traditionalists initially considered it voodoo. But it has it's place... (as varnish does, though it's much misunderstood.)

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

 

Of course I wax the paintwork on our boat, but we were talking about exterior wood finishes, and wax alone as an exterior wood finish will not last five minutes. Unless you can demonstrate otherwise, the only hard wax oils I have ever come across are primarily for polishing floors and possibly furniture, and are not recommended for exterior use.

 

As for Sikkens, where did I suggest it was unsuitable, it has been around for centuries, the only "traditionalists likely to have disapproved would have been French Polishers. I am also not opposed to new products, I was using cynochronatic glue long before it became generally available, and although trained to use boiled animal glue and Caseine glue, I regulary use PVA and have recently discovered Gorilla glue which is easy to use and appears to make a very strong waterproof bond.

 

 

 

 

 

 

We have treated our Teak in the cockpit with Semco.

 

Leaves a matt, natural finish but water just sits on the wood and doesn't soak in.

 

We are really pleased with it. Not cheap though.

 

Yes I agree, the only realistic finish for teak is a good quality rubbing/brushing oil, and your photos demonstrate that you do it regularly to maintan the clour.

Edited March 8, 2015 by David Schweizer

[David Schweizer]

Yep, the one-scratch-and-it-peels issue with varnish is what worries me, because I will not rush in with a paintbrush to tidy it up until long after it has decayed. The inner doors are glazed and will be enough of a pig to sand down to redo. We did the floors and new furniture inside with Polyxoil and love it (both to apply and to look at), but it isn't resistant enough for weathered areas. Will investigate this Sikkens stuff - there seem to be many many types to choose from.

 

Inside the boat is oak faced, so we'd like summat vaguely matching. Carpenter is investigating resistant ply options but I am OK to go for solid something if the cost isn't too staggering. The current linings were edged oak faced ply and were only just rotting at the bottoms after 9 years - seems a reasonable lifespan to me.

 

So what do you do if you scratch the paintwork ? surely that will rust if left unattended?

 

I would certainly avoid any faced ply for edging etc and go for solid timber, faced ply is only as good as the core material which will always present a de-lamination risk via the alternating end grain if it getswet. Coationg the edges with glass fibere resin should seal the end grain.

[Neil2]

For linings inside steel doors you could use Owatrol Oil as a wood treatment and overcoat it with pretty much whatever you like. One advantage is Owatrol is used extensively as a rust inhibitor so if you paint round the edges of the steel casings it will protect the steel as well.

[Odana]

 

So what do you do if you scratch the paintwork ? surely that will rust if left unattended?

 

 

Yep, it rusts. And every now and again when I have a fit of motivation and some time that I don't want to spend on something more interesting or essential, I patch it up or do a full if basic repaint. But that is normally every few years, not weeks. If something can be touched up or refreshed without extensive prep it is much more likely to happen. Call me a slack and scruffy boater, but sanding fiddly bits of wood or metal and fixing paint or varnish are horrid jobs I will procrastinate as long as possible!

 

 

Hmmm... Owatrol. Good idea. It was good inside the front deck - and everything I wore while down the hole is now everlastingly waterproof too.

[smileypete]

Yep, the one-scratch-and-it-peels issue with varnish is what worries me, because I will not rush in with a paintbrush to tidy it up until long after it has decayed. The inner doors are glazed and will be enough of a pig to sand down to redo. We did the floors and new furniture inside with Polyxoil and love it (both to apply and to look at), but it isn't resistant enough for weathered areas. Will investigate this Sikkens stuff - there seem to be many many types to choose from.

 

Inside the boat is oak faced, so we'd like summat vaguely matching. Carpenter is investigating resistant ply options but I am OK to go for solid something if the cost isn't too staggering. The current linings were edged oak faced ply and were only just rotting at the bottoms after 9 years - seems a reasonable lifespan to me.

 

For oak, best to look at a light shade of Sikkens like Pine, Light Oak, or Teak.

 

This is because normally the tints are used to colour a light wood, namely pine, toward the same as the wood type on the label. Also the smoother the surface, the nicer the grain will show.

 

Proper WBP exterior ply should last almost indefinitely if the most vulnerable bits are drowned in wood preserver (but chippys/boatbuilders hate that as it's hassle for them, also they sometimes cut corners when it comes to sealing the wood all round - not a recipe for longevity )

 

Maybe if the vast majority is OK just have the dodgy bits trimmed/routed off and add some oak capping.

 

ETA: Wonder if this is just for linings that are only exposed when the door is open, or surfaces in the weather 100% of the time...

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited March 8, 2015 by smileypete

[David Schweizer]

 

For oak, best to look at a light shade of Sikkens like Pine, Light Oak, or Teak.

 

Normally the tints are used to colour a light wood, namely pine, toward the wood type on the label. Also the smoother the surface, the nicer the grain will show.

 

Proper WBP exterior ply should last almost indefinitely if the most vulnerable bits are drowned in wood preserver (but chippys hate that as it's hassle for them, they also sometimes cut corners when it comes to sealing the wood all round - not a recipe for longevity )

 

Maybe if the vast majority is OK just have the dodgy bits trimmed/routed off and add some oak capping.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

 

The operative word being "should" I bought some expensive hardwood WBP from what I assumed was a reputable source to make the slide on our boat, It started to delaminate within 12 months, despite very cerefull preparation, the glue just crystalized.

 

I went back to the suppliers who admitted that they often had that problem because the mill where the ply was made (somewhere in the Far East) often had power cuts and if it happened while the heat presses were operating, the glue did not cure properly. their only compensation was to refund the cost of the timber, but no mention of compensating the cost of making the slide.

 

I no longer use that supplier and now only use ply manufactured in Europe, where manufacturing proceedures are better regulated. I also now have a slide fabricated from steel!