CANAL & RIVER TRUST OUTLINES POLICY FOR BOATERS WITHOUT A HOME MOORING

[Dave_P]

As usual, CRT are publishing guidelines according to what they can get away with, rather than what the law says.

[Paul C]

As usual, CRT are publishing guidelines according to what they can get away with, rather than what the law says.

 

Which bits contradict the law?

[Midnight]

It is likely that CRT would have to charge at a level that does not create unfair competition with marinas - in any event it will be a considerable investment as it would be necessary, to achieve the objectives you suggest, to provide adequate facilties, water, elsan, rubbish and perhaps mail delivery. It is unlikely that there are many suitable places already in existence that are not already covered by mooring licences. At that level of charging, I suspect than many of those currently considered non-compliant would remain so as they would feel that the new charges are beyond their means.

 

There are lots of examples of linear moorings with no facilities where boaters 'reside'. The costs I suggest would be an par with the guide prices of existing moorings. The point is C&RT would create moorings where there is a need - as demonstrated by those who already occupy the space and are reluctant to move. Simply put charging for CM'ing

[Dave_P]

And has been pointed out on another current thread, their logging is woefully insufficient to determine compliance or lack of it.

 

Which bits contradict the law?

The whole thing to be honest. Go and read the act, then read the comments of the judges from relevant cases. Then read the guidelines published by CRT.

 

It is now quite clear that distance travelled is not the determining factor in CC compliance. Yet here we are, discussing a 'places map' again.

The CC guidelines have always been about what CRT wish the law said, rather than what it actually says. Personally, I think the act is terrible and that the guidelines are quite reasonable, but they aren't backed up by the law and never have been. This is why the demands in the guidelines have been repeatedly scaled back.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Dave_P

[DeanS]

all I can say is I'm glad I'm not a London boater...as I imagine there's a big shakeup comin ?

[Naughty Cal]

all I can say is I'm glad I'm not a London boater...as I imagine there's a big shakeup comin ?

It isn't just London though!

[Dave_P]

The impact may be felt most strongly in London.

[Dar Kuma]

They will contact you if it is not acceptable

 

They could try and contact me....

[mark99]

 

in your eyes, but for some it is not as simple as you make out. For example, someone CC-ing around Birmingham. They plan their cruising pattern. They think they're ok. They get a local job, which doesn't pay enough for them to get a marina mooring, so they do everything they can to stick within the CC-ing rules...but they have to watch over their shoulders the whole time....because they actually have no idea. It's not as simple as you make out. Do you want them to rather give up the job, and head for Bath?

 

 

 

Maybe he should have taken note of CaRT cc'er guidelines before he made his declaration.

 

"Unacceptable reasons for staying longer than 14 days in a neighbourhood or locality are a need to stay within commuting distance of a place of work"

 

I would image that most west London commuters would love to pitch up in Kensington, or Mayfair with a camper van because they cannot afford a house there.

 

You may think that harsh but where in CaRT's obligations does it suggest they facilitate every permutation of social needs?

Edited February 13, 2015 by mark99

[MtB]

 

They could try and contact me....

 

 

I think if CRT write to you at the address you gave when licensing the boat, a court will deem you to have been contacted.

 

I.e. it's your problem if you don't check your post.

 

 

MtB

[mark99]

<cynical/silly mode on>

 

Enforcement Officer

 

"Please give me a list of every boater who has asked for a MAP"

 

CaRT Admin

 

"Why"

 

Enforcement Officer

 

"Because the mere fact they asked for one means they are already on my radar"

[jenlyn]

Maybe he should have taken note of CaRT cc'er guidelines before he made his declaration.

 

"Unacceptable reasons for staying longer than 14 days in a neighbourhood or locality are a need to stay within commuting distance of a place of work"

 

I would image that most west London commuters would love to pitch up in Kensington, or Mayfair with a camper van because they cannot afford a house there.

 

You may think that harsh but where in CaRT's obligations does it suggest they facilitate every permutation of social needs?

Neighborhood or locality??

[DeanS]

 

You may think that harsh but where in CaRT's obligations does it suggest they facilitate every permutation of social needs?

 

 

Can we please get off the broken record that if someone has a job, they can't CC...it is not true. Some people have jobs but cant afford a marina mooring. They have no choice but to CC...legally, by cruising a certain distance. It would be nice if they knew ahead of time what the distance was. They are not criminals. They are not CMers. They are honest folk, who dont want to live moored 3ft away from other boats. It's not right to say they should sell their boats. It's also not right for them to have to guess what the requirements are. I can't believe the number of people who cannot see the middle ground in the debate...but only see two polarised options.

[Guest]

Can we please get off the broken record that if someone has a job, they can't CC...it is not true. Some people have jobs but cant afford a marina mooring. They have no choice but to CC...legally, by cruising a certain distance. It would be nice if they knew ahead of time what the distance was. They are not criminals. They are not CMers. They are honest folk, who dont want to live moored 3ft away from other boats. It's not right to say they should sell their boats. It's also not right for them to have to guess what the requirements are. I can't believe the number of people who cannot see the middle ground in the debate...but only see two polarised options.

Somebody fetch Dean his angry trousers please......

[jenlyn]

Somebody fetch Dean his angry trousers please......

Tut, brown or yellow ones?

[alan_fincher]

I thought you did over 400 miles last year?

It's only 90 from London to Birmingham, so did you do it twice?

 

I guess it depends as what you call "London" but, for example, Little Venice to central Birmingham is about 144 miles, so whatever canal guide you have, I'd ask for my money back!

[jenlyn]

I guess it depends as what you call "London" but, for example, Little Venice to central Birmingham is about 144 miles, so whatever canal guide you have, I'd ask for my money back!

Little Venice is a very very small part of London Alan.

Actually though, now your here, how many miles from Rickmansworth to stone (not lock miles).

[Tony Dunkley]

It really is almost beyond belief how the simple wording of a clause in an Act of Parliament has been turned into a contentious and much debated issue by a few bloody minded and ill intentioned people from a Navigation Authority. The wording in the 1995 Act, as applicable to CC'ers is, in truth, neither ambiguous nor difficult to understand.

To ensure that anyone applying to Licence a boat without a home mooring understands what they must do to comply with the Law, all that's needed is a brief explanatory note on the Licence Application as follows : -

 

"The law requires that the boat will be bona fide used for navigation throughout the period of the licence without remaining continuously in any one place for more than 14 days or such longer period as is reasonable in the circumstances. “Place” means a neighbourhood or locality, not simply a particular mooring site or position. It is not possible, nor appropriate, to specify distances that need to be travelled. A sensible and pragmatic judgement needs to be made, exact precision is not required or expected."

 

Compliance with the Law could be easily achieved by adherence to guidance worded as above, by both CC'ers and C&RT. . . . why does it have to be turned into a massive problem ?

Edited February 13, 2015 by Tony Dunkley

[alan_fincher]

Little Venice is a very very small part of London Alan.

Yes but you said "It's only 90 from London to Birmingham"

 

It is actually about 90 miles from Leighton Buzzard to Birmingham, (by Canal).

 

Are you seriously arguing that Leighton Buzzard is part of London?

Edited February 13, 2015 by alan_fincher

[FadeToScarlet]

Can we please get off the broken record that if someone has a job, they can't CC...it is not true. Some people have jobs but cant afford a marina mooring. They have no choice but to CC...legally, by cruising a certain distance. It would be nice if they knew ahead of time what the distance was. They are not criminals. They are not CMers. They are honest folk, who dont want to live moored 3ft away from other boats. It's not right to say they should sell their boats. It's also not right for them to have to guess what the requirements are. I can't believe the number of people who cannot see the middle ground in the debate...but only see two polarised options.

The problem is, these folk are square pegs trying to fit in round holes. The legislation doesn't reflect the actuality for many people, but many people don't want this changed. The problem is, as it stands, there ARE only two polarised options, which don't fit for many people.

 

If, tomorrow, CRT said "every CCer must travel at least 20 miles per year" it would be first pounced upon by some people as being unlawful and un enforceable, many people would travel 20-and-a-bit miles per year, and the retired-couple-on-57'-trad stereotypical CCers would be unaffected. CRT can't say "this is the minimum we're happy with", because lots of people will do just the minimum, and there'll be people in grey areas too- "I travelled 19 miles this year, but my engine broke last week, so I couldn't do the last mile.... You can't prosecute me for that!" Etc.

 

I think that if you're worried that you're not travelling far enough, you're probably not.

[Looby Loo]

 

 

Can we please get off the broken record that if someone has a job, they can't CC...it is not true. Some people have jobs but cant afford a marina mooring. They have no choice but to CC...legally, by cruising a certain distance. It would be nice if they knew ahead of time what the distance was. They are not criminals. They are not CMers. They are honest folk, who dont want to live moored 3ft away from other boats. It's not right to say they should sell their boats. It's also not right for them to have to guess what the requirements are. I can't believe the number of people who cannot see the middle ground in the debate...but only see two polarised options.

 

Well said DeanS. Some people have jobs, can afford a marina mooring, but don't actually want one due to the proximity of neighbouring boats. It is bad enough in winter but I'm consoling myself that most of the time I'm actually on the boat over winter it's dark so the curtains aredrawn and I could be anywhere! Come March I will be outta there faster than a rat off a sinking ship. In any case the joy of having a boat is the fact that you can move around. If it's a safe area(s) to be out on the canal why would you want to be stuck in a marina except for the conveniences over winter.

[alan_fincher]

Actually though, now your here, how many miles from Rickmansworth to stone (not lock miles).

I'm sure you can use CanalPlanAC, but I'm coming up with 152 miles. You'll struggle with a wide beam, though!

[jenlyn]

Yes but you said "It's only 90 from London to Birmingham"It is actually about 90 miles from Leighton Buzzard to Birmingham, (by Canal).Are you seriously arguing that Leighton Buzzard is part of London?

Well, I sort of class rugby as Brum, so I am a bit out. I also class anywhere with a tube as london, and I shouldn't do that really either.

The last time I did Uxbridge to Warwick, it was 94 miles.

I'm sure you can use CanalPlanAC, but I'm coming up with 152 miles. You'll struggle with a wide beam, though!

Thankyou. I've never used canal plan.

[alan_fincher]

The last time I did Uxbridge to Warwick, it was 94 miles.

Probably more like 100, but Warwick certainly isn't Birmingham - you are still about 25 miles short at that point.

[bassplayer]

I'll ask again: why do YOU think a simple distance is critical? Its been shown quite clearly that CRT cannot, by law, define the distance required and thus refuse licences etc based on insufficient distance. They can only use the legislation as-is, not mould it like putty into what they (might or might not, or might be perceived to) desire. Have a look at the wording of the actual law behind all this. And then have a good read of the guidance for CCers.

 

The 20km talked about in enforcement is an internal trigger which seems to be used to "get you onto their radar" then they'll look at your actual movement pattern and place it alongside the legal requirement (eg place to place) as well as the times at each place. 20km range isn't used in prosecutions or court cases.

 

Yes I know CRT vs Davies was won by CRT and cites a distance but it is not precedent and doesn't carry much weight because the distance was only one strand of a number used by the judge to interpret Davies' intentions.

 

Post #38 reinforces the above.

Which bit of post 14 didn't you get?