Boats on the sea. What's involved?

[Guest]

The OP asked if you needed a licence, you do on the canal but not the sea, a regulation.

 

post three (I think) said that someone couldn't leave France without a sextant, BSS covers equipment..

 

The Report on Last Call stated that there was the wrong VHF and the wrong lifejackets.

 

Yes the Skipper and crew made some V bad decisions, what has that got to do with the OP?

You seem a bit muddled, so I will leave you to it. Good night.

[Keeping Up]

In the "Last Call" report, I find it interesting the way they have had to play with the wording re the VHF radio, to avoid breaking the rules. They admit that "marine VHF frequency allocation is common throughout the world. Although some nations do allocate additional frequencies and channels for specific purposes, the equipment fitted to Last Call was, by virtue of frequency allocation, compatible with its UK equivalent" but at the same time they have to state that "it is unlikely that the VHF set carried a CE mark, the vessel did not have a licence for a VHF set, and no one on board was qualified to use it. As a result, it would have been illegal to operate the VHF equipment within the EU".

 

Both these statements are correct but it shows how ridiculous the CE mark is in these circumstances. An American VHF radio is compatible with an EU one, but doesn't carry the CE mark which proves the compatibility therefore it is illegal to use it. I once bought an American VHF radio, which is exactly the same model number as the CE version of the same radio, and merely has a menu option to set it to US or EU standards; on the CE-approved version that option is fixed to "EU" and the "US" option is greyed out. The US version costs one-third of the EU version, and in the UK comes pre-set to "EU" - but of course I couldn't use it legally !!!

[howardang]

The OP asked if you needed a licence, you do on the canal but not the sea, a regulation.

 

post three (I think) said that someone couldn't leave France without a sextant, BSS covers equipment..

 

The Report on Last Call stated that there was the wrong VHF and the wrong lifejackets.

 

Yes the Skipper and crew made some V bad decisions, what has that got to do with the OP?

You don't seem to grasp that the licence is for the boat on the canal, not the skipper/crew, and as far as crew competence is concerned (which is what I was speaking about) there is absolutely no difference between canals and sea going private pleasure craft.

 

As far as the requirement for a sea going yacht to carry a sextant is concerned I am sure that this is incorrect.

 

As far as the VHF on Last Call, it would have been perfectly suitable to communicate on Ch 16; what was missing was any radio certificates among any of the crew.

 

Howard

[rasputin]

You don't seem to grasp that the licence is for the boat on the canal, not the skipper/crew, and as far as crew competence is concerned (which is what I was speaking about) there is absolutely no difference between canals and sea going private pleasure craft.

 

As far as the requirement for a sea going yacht to carry a sextant is concerned I am sure that this is incorrect.

 

As far as the VHF on Last Call, it would have been perfectly suitable to communicate on Ch 16; what was missing was any radio certificates among any of the crew.

 

Howard

I have no problem understanding both the licencing and the BSS for boats using inland waterways.

 

I agree with you about the sextant. But french boats do have to have certain equipment depending on how far from the shore they go.

 

One of the things that was missing on Last Call was an ability to use the radio but there was a lot else.

[howardang]

Chris Columbus and a few others managed it well...they didn't even have the internet to help them! Of course I did have a nice Casio Calculator to help with the logarithms!

 

Still use the ships sextant to work out the position, the cadets still have to learn it to get their 2nd Mates tickets so like to help teach them. The Chief Mate who job it is is normally too busy on the minimum manner that ships are run on these days.

 

 

They have been talking about removing celestial navigation it from the syllabus!

They may have to rethink this with the increasing jamming of GPS and the threat of cyber attacks from terrorist groups!

 

Howard

[Alan de Enfield]

What is required to sail/boat into (for example) France

 

Ships registration Papers (not a UK requirement so you may not have them)

Bill of sale - recommended

SSR - recomended

Letter of Authority - if the owner is not on-board

Ships Radio Licence

Insurance - showing cover for the area in question

Proof of VAT status (ie VAT paid)

Proof of RCD compliance - unless built before June 1998

Voyage Log - not a UK requirement so you may not normally keep one

 

Passports for all on board

Evidence of Competence - again not required in the UK so again, may not have any.

Radio Operators licence

Ideally your European Health Card

 

http://www.rya.org.uk/infoadvice/boatingabroad/Pages/boatingabroadpaperwork.aspx

[rasputin]

Required or recommended?

[Alan de Enfield]

Required or recommended?

 

To save you the effort of clicking the link :

 

When you are sailing a UK registered boat from the UK to any other country, you will require papers both for the boat and for the crew on board. There is a core set of paperwork - your ship's papers which, together with your passport, any other personal paperwork and any country specific documentation or publications you may be required to carry on board, should enable you to satisfy a foreign customs official

[rasputin]

 

To save you the effort of clicking the link :

 

When you are sailing a UK registered boat from the UK to any other country, you will require papers both for the boat and for the crew on board. There is a core set of paperwork - your ship's papers which, together with your passport, any other personal paperwork and any country specific documentation or publications you may be required to carry on board, should enable you to satisfy a foreign customs official

I did read it, and it is the "may be" That I think needs highlighting.

 

"Ships registration Papers (not a UK requirement so you may not have them)

Bill of sale - recommended

SSR - recomended

Letter of Authority - if the owner is not on-board

Ships Radio Licence

Insurance - showing cover for the area in question

Proof of VAT status (ie VAT paid)

Proof of RCD compliance - unless built before June 1998

Voyage Log - not a UK requirement so you may not normally keep one"

Not a uk requirement, Recommended, Recommended, You don't need a VHS licence, VAT is as arguable as pump out or cassette, lot of boats built before 1998, not A uk requirement.

So what is actually Required.......?

[Alan de Enfield]

The "may be" relates to "and any country specific documentation or publications you may be required to carry on board"

 

You may need (for example) to carry certain charts covering your cruising area, or 'publications' showing local variations to buoyage.

 

The other items on the list are REQUIRED - I simply made note that although they are required (for example) when arriving in a French port, a UK boat would not automatically have them as there is no requirement to have them in UK waters / ports

 

I made note that the Bill of sale and SSR are 'recommended' as an aid to proving ownership and UK registration.

 

Not a uk requirement, Recommended, Recommended, You don't need a VHF licence, VAT is as arguable as pump out or cassette, lot of boats built before 1998, not A uk requirement

 

That is exactly the point - you do not need this 'stuff' in UK waters, but when you arrive in a French / Belgium / German / Spanish port you DO NEED them.

As far as boating goes the UK is almost 'paper free' - the rest of Europe is not.

 

You say "VAT is arguable" - not to European Customs it isn't !!!

Edited January 17, 2015 by Alan de Enfield

[rasputin]

So what is actually Required.......?

 

Insurance no

ssr no

Radio licence no

bill of sale no

proof of rcd no

voyage log no

vat the jury is out

 

passport maybe but that is for the person not the boat.

Edited January 17, 2015 by rasputin

[Alan de Enfield]

rasputin, on 17 Jan 2015 - 10:12 AM, said:

So what is actually Required.......?

 

You need a full set of "Ships Papers" (originals - not copies) as listed by the RYA

You need a full set of "Personal Papers" as listed by the RYA

You need to have any additional publications or documentation required by local law.

 

Need = required.

 

Edit to add - the above not only applies to 'sea going' boats but to Jet-Skis, trailered boats and EVEN Caraboats.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Alan de Enfield

[nebulae]

I assume that a vessel will either have full registration as a "British Ship" or registration on the "Small Ship Register" .I dont understand why we are so relaxed about vessel registration in this country .I have come across several instances of a registered "British Ship" having gone through several changes of ownership without being registered in the new owners name.

[rasputin]

The "may be" relates to "and any country specific documentation or publications you may be required to carry on board"

 

You may need (for example) to carry certain charts covering your cruising area, or 'publications' showing local variations to buoyage.

 

The other items on the list are REQUIRED - I simply made note that although they are required (for example) when arriving in a French port, a UK boat would not automatically have them as there is no requirement to have them in UK waters / ports

 

I made note that the Bill of sale and SSR are 'recommended' as an aid to proving ownership and UK registration.

 

Not a uk requirement, Recommended, Recommended, You don't need a VHF licence, VAT is as arguable as pump out or cassette, lot of boats built before 1998, not A uk requirement

 

That is exactly the point - you do not need this 'stuff' in UK waters, but when you arrive in a French / Belgium / German / Spanish port you DO NEED them.

As far as boating goes the UK is almost 'paper free' - the rest of Europe is not.

 

You say "VAT is arguable" - not to European Customs it isn't !!!

As a Brittish boat you do not need them, If you are launching your Boat from their land you do

[rasputin]

"Could someone just spend £30k on a yacht and go to Rio or do you need some kind of licence? What are the rules?"

From OP

My answer...Yes

Paperwork required for yachts visiting Brazil

The following documents must be presented at the Harbour Master's Office within 24 hours:

• Entrance/Departure form
  
• Passport of the boat's owner or skipper and any passengers
  

Edited January 17, 2015 by rasputin

[Alan de Enfield]

As a Brittish boat you do not need them, If you are launching your Boat from their land you do

 

OK

[Sabcat]

I think the result of this thread is that, yes, anyone can get themselves on Apollo Duck, buy themselves a big shiny sail boat and pretty much do as they please with it. Depending on the amount of experience, training and equipment they have or don't have. They might die.

 

A person could spend a couple of grand over time on training both before and after they buy the boat, gain experience and actually safely sail to pretty much anywhere in the world.

[Timleech]

I assume that a vessel will either have full registration as a "British Ship" or registration on the "Small Ship Register" .I dont understand why we are so relaxed about vessel registration in this country .I have come across several instances of a registered "British Ship" having gone through several changes of ownership without being registered in the new owners name.

 

When we bought the Humber Keel 'BEECLIFFE' in 1974, it had been destined for scrap so we got no paperwork other than a simple handwritten receipt. It was a Registered British Ship, however, and a few years later we did need to sort this out in order to officially import into France. We had zero help from British Waterways, the last registered owners, I managed to track down one of the partners in the by then defunct scrap business, he was very cagey but did let us have a letter confirming his purchase and sale of the vessel. We ended up going to the High Court, Admiralty Division in London to get the registration officially put into our names.

Nowadays, we could perhaps get it put on the Small Ships Register for a lot less trouble and expense though I'm not sure of the details.

 

At the time we went to France, the general rule within Europe was that you were expected to comply with the rules in your home country. We did have a simple RYA 'certificate' which really proved nothing but did give bureaucratic officials, lock keepers etc., something to look at so that they had 'seen our papers', and stamp it if they felt the need.

We just once had a problem with a bored French Gendarme on the Grand Canal d'Alsace, who insisted upon seeing my 'driving licence'. If I'd been quicker on the uptake I would have shown him my car driving licence, I think his English was limited so it might well have convinced him. He couldn't accept the concept of there being no rules at home for us to follow as regards boat 'driving licences'. He detained us until the Monday when we was able to consult with his superiors, after much discussion and telephone calls they did let us go on our way.

All different now, though.

 

Tim

[Tam & Di]

As a Brittish boat you do not need them, If you are launching your Boat from their land you do

 

Not only if you are launching your boat from their land.

 

As a British boat you do not need them to leave from the UK, BUT the UN Convention concerning Innocent Passage in the Territorial Sea Sect.3.A.25.2 effectively allows a foreign country to demand ships entering a port to furnish any papers that would be required if they were to proceed into their inland waters. Most countries other than the UK do demand that the helmsman has some form of certificate of competence for inland navigation, so you could be asked to produce that even if only calling in at one of their ports or harbours (other than for reason of safety from storm and tempest, I believe).

 

On the "launching your boat from their land" I do know someone who was not allowed to pass through the last lock on the Seine before the sea as the lock keeper did not regard his vessel as compliant with French craft legislation. He was ultimately able to sneak round and leave France via the Somme at St Valery where no-one noticed him.

 

Tam

Edited January 17, 2015 by Tam & Di

[ditchcrawler]

When I did the VHF course the others on the course were lumpy water sailors, and we did talk about the fact the the only thing you need any qualification for is to operate the radio. Of course you don't actually have to have a radio either I think.

Just had lunch with a sailing friend and he says the same. All you need is a Red Duster hanging on the back and ports in other countries leave you alone.

[Georgina]

Accepting the desirability of taking an RYA course how do you think those of us who are old managed to learn to sail? I began long before the RYA introduced their courses and continued until about four years ago when anno domini caught up. Difficult to use a sailing boat if you cannot pull a rope. So I sold the sea boat and bought one where I can walk ashore. In those days one began carefully and in sheltered waters, concious of the fact that if you got yourself into a difficulty you had to get yourself out of it. My first dinghy sail was in Shaldon Harbour. I went out - then found I had little idea on how to get back. Answer - down sail and row. You had to swallow your embarressment and learn. Later, still with little experience, I moved with a larger boat on to the Bristol Channel - an unforgiving bit of water. Again, take it carefully, slowly and read it all up. Our boats then were converted lifeboats with no guard rails, no radios, no electronics and compasses which were ex-R.A.F. One advantage of the Channel was you could not get lost. Wales one side, England the other Ireland in front. All of the small boat sailors of the era 1930 to 1960 were self taught and possibly better for it. Nothing focuses the mind better than terror and the fact that the problem is yours and yours alone. So, yes, it can be done with a cautious approach but a proper course is a good idea. Sailing at sea remains one of the Englishmans few remaining liberties, and long may that be so. Only insurance to protect other people is a must. Even that is not legally required.

[nebulae]

I agree .Most of us with a few years on the clock learned by trial and error. Starting with a small dingy at 10 years of age ,I learned very quickly. Strong sense of self preservation and a deep respect for the sea.

[John V]

Accepting the desirability of taking an RYA course how do you think those of us who are old managed to learn to sail? <snip> Our boats then were converted lifeboats with no guard rails, no radios, no electronics and compasses which were ex-R.A.F. <snip> Sailing at sea remains one of the Englishmans few remaining liberties, and long may that be so. Only insurance to protect other people is a must. Even that is not legally required.

 

 

Oh so true........you have forgotten, however, that all these boats were fitted with the worlds finest bilge pump.........A terrified man and a saucepan !!!

[Alan de Enfield]

Georgina, on 18 Jan 2015 - 11:21 AM, said:

Accepting the desirability of taking an RYA course how do you think those of us who are old managed to learn to sail? ...........

 

I actually learnt at school - we firstly built canoes, then moved up to Dinghies, we had regular weekly sailing lessons on local lakes with Mirror's and GP's and once - we had a 'fireball' to try out.

[Ray T]

 

I actually learnt at school - we firstly built canoes, then moved up to Dinghies, we had regular weekly sailing lessons on local lakes with Mirror's and GP's and once - we had a 'fireball' to try out.

 

Any excuse, I've shown this before:

 

Fire ball 11464

 

My third Fireball, Rondar GRP, named Tomato Sloop

Edited January 19, 2015 by Ray T