Timing chain went out through the cover... could have the engine survived?

[RLWP]

A bit of lateral thinking - and probably not the actual result - a broken crankshaft. Either between cylinders or perhaps just at the pulley end

 

Richard

[Alf Roberts]

....not trying to worry the OP or anything.

[Tony Brooks]

A bit of lateral thinking - and probably not the actual result - a broken crankshaft. Either between cylinders or perhaps just at the pulley end

 

Richard

 

Knowing the 1.5 needed a torsional oscillation damper I was also thinking along those line but did not want to alarm the OP perhaps without good grounds.

[RLWP]

....not trying to worry the OP or anything.

 

The OP has all the real info available to him, all of this other stuff - except 'it is probably serious' - is speculation. Now the OP might be worried by that, or not, or be unaware as he is mechanicing as we type

 

Richard

[Alf Roberts]

 

The OP has all the real info available to him, all of this other stuff - except 'it is probably serious' - is speculation. Now the OP might be worried by that, or not, or be unaware as he is mechanicing as we type

 

Richard

indeed. the only thing we 'know' is head off time

[Nestor Espinoza]

Thanks for all the replies. Rockers are all good, surprisingly, but is as far as I got. Currently struggling to remove the crankshaft pulley with a crappy universal puller, very unwieldy, I need three extra hands to hold it in place.

 

Are there any tricks to remove the pulley? It doesn't have threaded bolts like I've seen in other engines. In case there are different versions, mine's got a big one groove pulley with the rubber damper and a small pulley with two grooves, maybe 3" in diameter. I am trying to clamp the puller to those pulleys as they are not used.

 

Nes

[Chalky]

Has the timing chain ever been replaced or is it the original? The reason I ask is that there's a thread running on an MG forum about someone who had a timing chain tensioner fail on them after about 10K miles. Fortunately the damage was limited to the vernier timing gears and the duplex chain.

 

http://www.mgexp.com/phorum/read.php?1,2870200

 

The engine in the MG is a B series petrol but I would have assumed that the timing chain assembly is very similar.

Edited December 14, 2014 by Chalky

[Nestor Espinoza]

The crankshaft is definitely not broken, flywheel turns at the same time as the pulley. Plus when turning the engine by hand I can hear some hissing, thus the pistons are going up and down. When looking at the rockers I noticed some have massive gaps with the valves, so yeah, some valves seem to be bent and stuck open.

 

Answering a question, I have no clue whether this is the original chain, but given that it is on a boat the engine probably had a long life powering a taxi before being marinised, so most certainly not the original part.

 

The boat owner comes back to London briefly this Wednesday, she is on an expat gig now, I guess this won't be sorted by then.

 

Unless someone has a running BMC they would like to swap?

[RLWP]

You need to take the head off

 

Richard

[wullie]

Yes defo my first move would be remove head minimum damage i would think valve bent and or push rods bent if rockers ok as OP reports.

[RLWP]

Yes defo my first move would be remove head minimum damage i would think valve bent and or push rods bent if rockers ok as OP reports.

Ahh, pushrods. Good thinking

 

Richard

[DHutch]

It isn't always bad news. Some years ago my wife had the timing belt fail on her Rover 214 in the fast lane of the M6. After coasting across 2 lanes to the hard shoulder she was picked up by the AA and towed off the motorway. We got the car back to our local garage, where they didn't have to do anything more than replace the timing belt. No bent valves or anything!

I does appear to depends.

 

May parents has a diesel Montego (Perkins Prima?) which ate a belt, and was fixed roadside in a few hours, as they are apparently non-interference engines.

 

I also know of at least two reliable sources of car that has had a belt failure, one of which due to a water pump failure on the motorway. Bend valves, but after replacing around four of them (1/4 of a 16v engine) went on to live another day, either in one case to do a great many more miles with the owner of the time, or in the other, to be sold on quickly, but not to heard anything back.

 

I also had a housemate who had a Mk1 BMW Mini fail its timing chain tensioner, suddenly loose almost all power and make a huge clattering noise. Towed to a garage, new tensioner, problem solved.

 

 

Daniel

[Albion]

I does appear to depends.

 

May parents has a diesel Montego (Perkins Prima?) which ate a belt, and was fixed roadside in a few hours, as they are apparently non-interference engines.

 

I also know of at least two reliable sources of car that has had a belt failure, one of which due to a water pump failure on the motorway. Bend valves, but after replacing around four of them (1/4 of a 16v engine) went on to live another day, either in one case to do a great many more miles with the owner of the time, or in the other, to be sold on quickly, but not to heard anything back.

 

I also had a housemate who had a Mk1 BMW Mini fail its timing chain tensioner, suddenly loose almost all power and make a huge clattering noise. Towed to a garage, new tensioner, problem solved.

 

 

Daniel

Yes, it does depend on the particular engine. When I was in the motor trade we used to be able to buy a book that told us engine by engine which ones would suffer damage and which ones would survive if, say, a belt broke or stripped its teeth. this was a very useful publication. Can't remember now who produced it but it was from the same publisher as we used for other technical info and allowed service and repair times IIRC.

Roger

[bizzard]

Yes, it does depend on the particular engine. When I was in the motor trade we used to be able to buy a book that told us engine by engine which ones would suffer damage and which ones would survive if, say, a belt broke or stripped its teeth. this was a very useful publication. Can't remember now who produced it but it was from the same publisher as we used for other technical info and allowed service and repair times IIRC.

Roger

I.C.M.E Manual?

[Albion]

I.C.M.E Manual?

That definitely rings a bell for the service and repair times but don't think, after a bit of reflection, that it was the same as the technical data stuff. Would that have been Autodata Biz? It is ten years since I sold my garage business and was away from direct involvement with it before that for 7 years while contracting for Rover Cars, Lister-Petter Diesels and Jaguar Cars so it is all getting a bit hazy now..........coupled with advancing old age of course

Roger

[bizzard]

That definitely rings a bell for the service and repair times but don't think, after a bit of reflection, that it was the same as the technical data stuff. Would that have been Autodata Biz? It is ten years since I sold my garage business and was away from direct involvement with it before that for 7 years while contracting for Rover Cars, Lister-Petter Diesels and Jaguar Cars so it is all getting a bit hazy now..........coupled with advancing old age of course

Roger

I think there were various ones. The main I.C.M.E manual was Service and repair times, technical data, contact gaps, dwell angles, valve clearances, ignition timing, charge rates, engine nuts and bolt torque ect ect. Another with Diagrams of timing belt layouts and their timing marks. Quite a few.

[Albion]

I think there were various ones. The main I.C.M.E manual was Service and repair times, technical data, contact gaps, dwell angles, valve clearances, ignition timing, charge rates, engine nuts and bolt torque ect ect. Another with Diagrams of timing belt layouts and their timing marks. Quite a few.

Contact gaps and dwell angles...........that shows our age

Roger

[RLWP]

You may laugh - I've just replaced the points on a pair of Volvo Penta V6 engines in a Sunseeker

 

Richard

[Albion]

You may laugh - I've just replaced the points on a pair of Volvo Penta V6 engines in a Sunseeker

 

Richard

How do you manage to find the technical info for marine engines Richard? Are there manuals published other than the original owner's manual which would tend to get lost with the passage of time and different owners? Do you set dwell solely on gap or have you a dwell meter?

Roger

[magnetman]

I had a Land Rover Defender 90 300tdi in the 90's and the cambelt broke on me, a little bit early. Just after a maneouver to overtake a truck. I think it was the engine slowing down which broke it... anyway Land Rover repaired it and they said it had bent push rods and 2 broken rockers I think, if I remember right. was repaired and worked ok afterwards. Someone else told me the valves don't collide with the pistons on that particular engine but that may be BS I've never looked into the situation closely.

[Woodstock]

It isn't always bad news. Some years ago my wife had the timing belt fail on her Rover 214 in the fast lane of the M6. After coasting across 2 lanes to the hard shoulder she was picked up by the AA and towed off the motorway. We got the car back to our local garage, where they didn't have to do anything more than replace the timing belt. No bent valves or anything!

Me too- in a rover as well, on the A38. The breakdown man went "oooh that'll be bad news", our mechanic was out when we arrived at the garage and the apprentice went "oohh nasty". The mechanic arrived and said I'll change the timing belt, fetch it tomorrow. He'd never seen serious damage in a rover- thank goodness, It was a good car that one

[RLWP]

On gap - I don't have a dwell meter

 

Manuals, well it's surprising what you can find on the internet these days: http://www.thestraycat.net/files/Volvo%20Penta%20Owners%20Manual.pdf

 

That pair of V6 engines is a hoot. Blipping the speed control makes the boat move because of the torque reaction

 

Richard

[Nestor Espinoza]

Well, I think it was a Christmas miracle

 

I took the head off, and all the valves seem to be pretty good, at least nothing noticeable by the naked eye. In petrol engines you check the valves by putting the head upside down and filling the chambers with petrol, if after a few minutes the petrol goes through the valves are leaky. Does it work with diesel engines as well? I just poured diesel over the valves, not much of a combustion chamber there, but they still hold as bit of diesel. Now diesel is way thicker than petrol, maybe I should get some petrol to check the valves?

 

Any other idea to check them?

 

Also, could it be that the engine stopped exactly at the point when at least one valve is open in each cylinder? It was freewheeling after all, but with the rockers removed there is some compression.

 

So I am almost there, if only I could get that pulley off, I am tempted to drill and tap two holes to pull it out and then get a new pulley!

[andyb116]

The best thing to check if the valves are leaking is to fill the ports with brake fluid, it will find the slightest leak.

[Nestor Espinoza]

Of course, the ports, the other way round!

 

Off to Halfords to get a gallon of fluid!