Blackstone gear box linkages

[George94]

Right George 94 time for some basic information.

 

I have a gear wheel system to operate the gearbox on my boat , Blackstone box and on a boat the same as Catrin and Alan have. This system is the origional GU mechanism adapted to operate the replacement set up. It's very nice to use and has plenty of feel for the operation of the box .

 

On Flamingo there is a basic push and pull system which has a great deal of travel and means you can't on a cold day shut the doors behind you because the gear rod needs to travel outside the doors to go astern . Compared to my gear wheel set up this is crude ( really sorry Alan and Catrin ) all though it works very well.

 

Our previous boat had a similar set up which we lived with until OH decided to apply a bit of thought and engineering to the job and he reduced the travel a fair bit . Improvement but not perfect and we would have changed to gear wheel control if we had wanted to keep the boat.

 

Nobody is disrespecting Tim, we all know he is a fine engineer and indeed has come up with a source of bevel gears suitable for such use.

 

Quite frankly unless you can come up with some useful suggestions I reckon you might be better leaving the discussion.

Yes madcat is being hissy .

 

Hissy or not, and authentic or not, it's still not the best way to do it, and that's a fact.

 

And it's why the practice was short-lived.

]

[frangar]

I would say that a well set up push pull system as per my pics is a joy to use...quick, easy....and a short travel. And a lot less to engineer or maintain.....you don't even knock ur head on a big wheel.

 

Just my thoughts

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

[alan_fincher]

 

A quarter turn? On a small wheel? You're going to have to be built like Charles Atlas, then.

 

Possibly you are overlooking that my other Grand Union boat already has a wheel gear change, which I am very familiar with, and of course use all the time.

 

As set up, it is no more than a quarter turn each way I think, (might be slightly more, but I'm not at that boat to try it).

 

Both I and the wife somehow manage, and neither of us are built much like Charles Atlas.

 

(The issue with the gears on that boat is not current operability, it is that what has been used to construct the replacement gear mechanism isn't really substantial enough, and something stronger, but otherwise similar, is really needed).

And it's why the practice was short-lived.

Yep, short lived from the day the boats were built in the 1930s, until the end of regular carrying around 1970, and up to the modern day, in probably the majority of the surviving GUCCCo motors.

 

Must be coming up to about 80 years "short lived" for many of them!

 

Have you actually used a boat with the arrangement as designed for the original Brunton box, or suitably modified for (say) the Parsons boxes on Petters?

[starman]

I would say that a well set up push pull system as per my pics is a joy to use...quick, easy....and a short travel. And a lot less to engineer or maintain.....you don't even knock ur head on a big wheel.

 

Just my thoughts

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

I agree - well I would; mine's the same as Gareth's. I can work my push-pull with the doors shut if I need to, it's quick and pretty light. And I can bang my head easily enough on one wheel as I go in and out the boat, let alone with a second, bigger one. It is also utterly simple; there's just one bolt in a sliding coupling. The whole lot was welded up out of some offcuts of steel in a couple of hours. It also takes up very little space which is a benefit when you have to clamber around the engine.

[alan_fincher]

Tim Leech is an engineer, and always speaks good sense. But ignore him, of course, if you feel you know better.

Nobody is disrespecting Tim, we all know he is a fine engineer and indeed has come up with a source of bevel gears suitable for such use.

I have huge respect for Tim, who frankly I would rather trust then just about anybody else in his trade, whether they post here or not, (based solely on his ultra sensible advice on so many topics here).

 

If I was within striking distance of Dutton, and Tim agreed, I would be happy to put Flamingo with Tim and specify no more than he came up with a practical gear change of whatever design he thought best and cost effective. I am sure it would work superbly.

 

I'm not however likely to be able to put the job to Tim - at least not in the foreseeable future, so I'm looking at what is possible.

 

By choice I would have a wheel, because it is correct for the history of the boat, but if it is going to cost an arm and a leg, and a really good push pull can be built for less, I'm not so wedded to the wheel that I can't do without it.

[George94]

 

 

Possibly you are overlooking that my other Grand Union boat already has a wheel gear change, which I am very familiar with, and of course use all the time.

 

As set up, it is no more than a quarter turn each way I think, (might be slightly more, but I'm not at that boat to try it).

 

Both I and the wife somehow manage, and neither of us are built much like Charles Atlas.

 

(The issue with the gears on that boat is not current operability, it is that what has been used to construct the replacement gear mechanism isn't really substantial enough, and something stronger, but otherwise similar, is really needed).

Yep, short lived from the day the boats were built in the 1930s, until the end of regular carrying around 1970, and up to the modern day, in probably the majority of the surviving GUCCCo motors.

 

Must be coming up to about 80 years "short lived" for many of them!

 

Have you actually used a boat with the arrangement as designed for the original Brunton box, or suitably modified for (say) the Parsons boxes on Petters?

 

 

Yes, but the idea never caught on more widely, did it? I am happy to concede that it was not so bad that many people felt obliged to go to the trouble and expense of changing the arrangement, but this was a dead-end.

 

I don't need to try another boat to know that a simple pivoted lever is a better system, assuming it can be fitted easily. Possibly it can't on your boat.

 

BTW, both are better than the dreaded Morse control.

 

 

[RLWP]

In fact, wheel gear changes were quite common, Kelvins and Glennifers both using that system

 

Richard

Edited December 7, 2014 by RLWP

[madcat]

George I'm really not getting why you waded into this topic.

 

It started on discussing rod operated gear levers and digressed as such things are wont to do to re constructing the gear wheel operated change originally fitted to GU boats and subsequently copied on quite a few modern boats .

 

Push pull gear rods are mechanically simple but in their most basic form have the drawback of a long travel due to the length of the operating lever in the engine room. It runs from just under roof height to the side of the gearbox. The length also means there's a lot of leverage and as Tim has pointed out that can cause problems for the limit stops on the box and potentially allow the box to be subject to excessive force.

 

Gear control is more complex to make and has more parts but is nice to use and you don't need to be Charles Atlas to work it. It was designed to work with the Brunton box but converted fairly easily when the boats were re engined.

 

As Tim says there is no advantage in using this system for gear changing and as Tim is a big man so I can see his point about the big hand wheel being in the way getting in and out the cabin.

Catrin and Alan prefer the gear wheel system.

 

Just wading in telling people they're wrong isn't really helpful. It's horses for courses.

And me, I prefer the gear wheel system but manage just fine with push pull. I really don't like morse controls much

[George94]

George I'm really not getting why you waded into this topic.

 

It started on discussing rod operated gear levers and digressed as such things are wont to do to re constructing the gear wheel operated change originally fitted to GU boats and subsequently copied on quite a few modern boats .

 

Push pull gear rods are mechanically simple but in their most basic form have the drawback of a long travel due to the length of the operating lever in the engine room. It runs from just under roof height to the side of the gearbox. The length also means there's a lot of leverage and as Tim has pointed out that can cause problems for the limit stops on the box and potentially allow the box to be subject to excessive force.

 

Gear control is more complex to make and has more parts but is nice to use and you don't need to be Charles Atlas to work it. It was designed to work with the Brunton box but converted fairly easily when the boats were re engined.

 

As Tim says there is no advantage in using this system for gear changing and as Tim is a big man so I can see his point about the big hand wheel being in the way getting in and out the cabin.

Catrin and Alan prefer the gear wheel system.

 

Just wading in telling people they're wrong isn't really helpful. It's horses for courses.

And me, I prefer the gear wheel system but manage just fine with push pull. I really don't like morse controls much

 

Might I suggest a nice cup of tea, dear?

 

I am not suggesting the wholesale murder of new-borns. There really is no need for you to get into a tizzy over this, especially as I was addressing Alan, and not you. If you are going to get upset by proxy, then surely there are many more awful things to get upset about than my espousal of levers. Breast-feeding at Claridges for one. That's truly terrible. I shall never set foot in such an unruly establishment again.

 

Contrary to your assertion, a properly-designed pivoted gear lever doesn't suffer from long travel, and is simpler, more reliable, and has less friction than the gears that Alan is suggesting. I do appreciate that there are some circumstances where that solution might be easier to implement than the pivoted lever, but both of them are changes to the existing and I presume original system, so neither can really be considered truly authentic.

 

Alan has already said that he would not be totally averse to levers, and Tim has said unequivocally that he thinks levers are in general better, so perhaps we can leave it there.

 

At least we agree on Morse!

[matty40s]

 

Might I suggest a nice cup of tea, dear?

 

I am not suggesting the wholesale murder of new-borns. There really is no need for you to get into a tizzy over this, especially as I was addressing Alan, and not you. If you are going to get upset by proxy, then surely there are many more awful things to get upset about than my espousal of levers. Breast-feeding at Claridges for one. That's truly terrible. I shall never set foot in such an unruly establishment again.

 

Contrary to your assertion, a properly-designed pivoted gear lever doesn't suffer from long travel, and is simpler, more reliable, and has less friction than the gears that Alan is suggesting. I do appreciate that there are some circumstances where that solution might be easier to implement than the pivoted lever, but both of them are changes to the existing and I presume original system, so neither can really be considered truly authentic.

 

Alan has already said that he would not be totally averse to levers, and Tim has said unequivocally that he thinks levers are in general better, so perhaps we can leave it there.

 

At least we agree on Morse!

You condescending twat.

[George94]

You condescending twat.

 

Thank you, Matty.

[madcat]

Lol, he safe behind his keyboard so he's being a bit daring . There there Georgie Porgie , kiss the girls and make them sick .

 

We were having a nice rambling discussion about gear controls which was wandering about as these topics do. The participants all have opinions and preferences and nobody was up for criticising the others choices or systems .

 

Suggest you come up with your solutions and post them on here.

 

The brief is to take the gear rod along the cabin length and through the engine room bulkhead at roof height and operate a rod that OH suggests is about 4 foot give or take bit and is attached to the operating lever of a Blackstone box. This is to be designed in a manner to reduce the travel of the operating rod to a minimum.

Best solution so far is the pivoted rod as shown in a selection of photos but that isn't the idea in its simplest form .

 

Personally I don't understand why a person can't be allowed to enjoy their choice of gear control in peace.

Forgot to add thanks for the opportunity for an extra marital argument George , it's fun isn't it.

Edited December 7, 2014 by madcat

[Catrin]

....extra marital argument ....

a new one on me, Madcat. Thanks.

[George94]

a new one on me, Madcat. Thanks.

 

I think Madcat means it's a change from arguing with her hubby. It's he who should be thanking me, I reckon!

 

Now with respect, Madcat, I don't think you have got your head around the pivot. Think of a see-saw, and the the fulcrum around which it turns. Suddenly, the arc described by the ends of the see-saw is half what it would have been if the see-saw was just pivoted at one end. That is the secret to massively reducing the length of travel.

 

It's the KISS principle. Keep it simple, sweetheart.

[madcat]

I'm off to the boat tommorow so I will gather some basic measurements and a photo or two after I've done my important tasks.

 

Any chance of posting some photos of Flamingo's gear rods so George can see what we're all on about.

 

My other hobby apart from arguing with strange men is looking at bits of boats on the Internet or in real life if I get the chance

[madcat]

George I understand all this stuff just fine.

 

Moominpapa posted a photo of the simplest way to reduce the travel on a push pull gear control , a simple elegant solution which works and one I'd use if I needed to make a push pull work better .

Trouble is most old boats have the simplest of set ups which have the issue of exess travel that Catrin and Alan are finding a bit of a pain .

 

The boat with the removable floor lever to operate the Blackstone box was Radiant , the operating rod runs under the floor and is quite ok to use .

 

This topic is in dire need of photos, I will see if I can get some to add showing the gearbox end of the job and also all the other details of the surrounding steelwork and so on.

 

see you tommorow night .

 

PS Hubby thinks this is funny.

[George94]

George I understand all this stuff just fine.

 

Moominpapa posted a photo of the simplest way to reduce the travel on a push pull gear control , a simple elegant solution which works and one I'd use if I needed to make a push pull work better .

Trouble is most old boats have the simplest of set ups which have the issue of exess travel that Catrin and Alan are finding a bit of a pain .

 

The boat with the removable floor lever to operate the Blackstone box was Radiant , the operating rod runs under the floor and is quite ok to use .

 

This topic is in dire need of photos, I will see if I can get some to add showing the gearbox end of the job and also all the other details of the surrounding steelwork and so on.

 

see you tommorow night .

 

PS Hubby thinks this is funny.

 

OK. Nighty night!

[George94]

BTW, I apologise about Matty. It's so embarrassing. He's Sicilian you know, and my great grandfather once quarrelled with his great grandfather over a woman in a bar in Palermo. Unless it was Catania, nobody is really sure. It's been war between the clans ever since, and he's sworn to get me. Honour is very important to Matty.

 

If you never hear from me again, don't be surprised. When the coroner announces that the cause of death was a stiletto wound to the heart, you'll know who to look for. His real name's Matteo, and he's from Palermo. Or Catania.

[starman]

A few photos here of our set up here. https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10152886440554598&id=545404597

 

The bottom section of the operating rod is a cut down version of the original. There is a sleeve type joint in the horizontal rod so that all can be dismantled if necessary. Total forward reverse travel is just under two feet.

[Alf Roberts]

 

Quite frankly unless you can come up with some useful suggestions I reckon you might be better leaving the discussion.

Yes madcat is being hissy .

bell crank. nb Beatty.

 

(purr)

[Timleech]

A few photos here of our set up here. https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10152886440554598&id=545404597

Invisible to unbelievers.

 

Tim

[Proper Job]

Invisible to unbelievers.

 

Tim

 

That'll be me as well then

[madcat]

Alf I agree, I've not seen the mechanism on Beatty but a bell crank set up works .

 

George , I've dropped in to say that we need to haul off on squabbling because we're derailing an interesting thread. I will take a photo of the gearbox end of my set up today and see if I can get it posted for you and others to view. It's ingenious and simple. I'm very happy with it and to its worked fine for well over 20 years .

 

As to Keep It Simple Stupid , I agree.

 

this is how I see things .

 

The problem is to operate a Blackstone box from a distance of 8 ft or so . The simple solution is to use a push pull system but in its most basic form the issue of exess travel arises caused by the length of the lever in the engine room.

To reduce the travel involves extra work , pivoting the bottom of the lever and picking up the motion lower down neare to the box as fitted on Moomin's boat. Simple but effective .

Beatty which I've not seen has a bell crank arrangement .

These are all deviations from the basic system but are acceptable solutions .

 

I consider the gear wheel operation to be perfectly acceptable way to operate the box, I live with it and I like it. I can understand why somebody would wish to re instate that method of working the box if they so desired or use the set up on a new build . It's down to choice and isn't an act of pure folly.

 

If I ever end up with a boat with push pull gear rods then I'm sure that given it will be another old boat my first priority will be to deal with any issues raised by the pre purchase hull survey.

 

What I started to argue with you about was the way you waded in in the same way others are wont to do in the pump out versus cassette wars. We need to stop it before somebody dies

I'm pleased to see you've got your sense of humour out though.

 

Let's get this thread back to how best to construct both systems in a simple but elegant manner without getting side tracked into what's best.

Hubby with a lifetime of engineering experience behind him considers the set up on Halsall to be perfectly good.

[madcat]

Starman I can't see your photos because im not on facebook, any chance of posting them direct on here.

 

There aren't any unbelievers Tim. We all get that a rod system is simple and effective and can be made to work well. There's some preferences involved but that's to be expected.

Catrin and Alan have stated that a better engineered version of what they have would be acceptable.

 

 

George and I got into a stupid spat because of his posting style and the limitations of making oneself clear on the Internet . I don't really like the pointless arguing in that breaks out on here so why I got into one I don't know. Niggly because arthritis is giving me gyp perhaps.

 

Edit to add , I've used both happily. The only thing I really don't like is Morse control and that is purely personal opinion based no doubt largely on what I've got used to.

Edited December 8, 2014 by madcat

[Timleech]

Starman I can't see your photos because im not on facebook, any chance of posting them direct on here.

 

There aren't any unbelievers Tim. We all get that a rod system is simple and effective and can be made to work well. There's some preferences involved but that's to be expected.

Catrin and Alan have stated that a better engineered version of what they have would be acceptable.

 

 

George and I got into a stupid spat because of his posting style and the limitations of making oneself clear on the Internet . I don't really like the pointless arguing in that breaks out on here so why I got into one I don't know. Niggly because arthritis is giving me gyp perhaps.

 

Edit to add , I've used both happily. The only thing I really don't like is Morse control and that is purely personal opinion based no doubt largely on what I've got used to.

It's unbelievers in the True Path of Facebook I was alluding to

 

Tim