Thoughts on this engine...?

[pbuk]

Hi all,

 

I recently looked at a boat with a Lister HRW 4 onboard. The exhaust was pretty smoky especially when put under load and the gentleman that owned the boat kept the oil level way below the recommend minimum suggested on the dipstick. I didn't really understand why he did that but he did give a reason - something to do with the engine starting more easily in the cold...??

 

I know nothing at all about engines, as you can probably tell, so any help with this would be very much appreciated.

 

Thank you.

[casper ghost]

Interesting, I can't see a reason for keeping oil level low but I guess his engine would smoke like mad if he filled the oil to the correct level... Prop needs attention.

Casp'

[PhilR]

It might have been more to do with oil dilution from leaking fuel unions ............

[pbuk]

Thank you for the replies. Yes I think the prop is too small for the engine. I don't really understand prop sizing...what would be the right size for this engine?

 

P

[Mike on the Wey]

I suspect that "prop needs attention" is probably needs attention. As in the oil situation.

[MtB]

I know nothing at all about engines, as you can probably tell, so any help with this would be very much appreciated.

 

Thank you.

 

 

I suspect the seller of this boat also knows very little about engines, but enough to know this engine has serious trouble brewing and has decided to 'get rid' rather than fix it.

 

I'm inclined to agree the oil is probably being diluted with diesel from the internal fuel leak these engines are prone to, which leads to the oil level constantly rising. This means he needs to remove oil regularly rather than add it, hence his inclination to keep the oil level low.

 

It also means the engine is being lubricated with a thin mixture of oil and diesel leading to accelerated wear and possibly serious damage. Might also explain the smoke.

 

Fixing the fuel pipe leak(s) and replacing with fresh oil 'might' lead to the smoking going away but if not, you'll have an engine that probably needs a total re-build on your hands.

 

 

MtB

P.S. An HRW4 is a ridiculously large engine for a narrowboat. Is it narrowboat? Or something else?

[Bee]

Something ain't right, it's a 'project' engine, probably quite a good project if the price is right, otherwise it's just a load of work.

[alan_fincher]

P.S. An HRW4 is a ridiculously large engine for a narrowboat. Is it narrowboat? Or something else?

Assuming it is a narrow boat, I'm surprised we needed to get to post number 6 before anyone picked up on this.

 

As MTB says, an HRW4 is ridiculously overpowered for a narrow boat, and if propped up correctly, the boat is likely to be going far too fast in tick-over not to be peeing off the owners of nearly every moored boat you go past.

 

I suspect though, it will be heavily under-propped, but it is still far, far too big.

[by'eck]

Assuming it is a narrow boat, I'm surprised we needed to get to post number 6 before anyone picked up on this.

 

As MTB says, an HRW4 is ridiculously overpowered for a narrow boat, and if propped up correctly, the boat is likely to be going far too fast in tick-over not to be peeing off the owners of nearly every moored boat you go past.

 

I suspect though, it will be heavily under-propped, but it is still far, far too big.

 

I would have used just one "far" - after all its nearly half the capacity of a Kelvin K2.

[Athy]

^{Well, it has about the same cc as a Gardner 3LW and there are quite a few of those in longer narrowboats. is it so excessively large for n/b use?}

[alan_fincher]

I would have used just one "far" - after all its nearly half the capacity of a Kelvin K2.

^{Well, it has about the same cc as a Gardner 3LW and there are quite a few of those in longer narrowboats. is it so excessively large for n/b use?}

Neither of you are comparing like with like, are you?

 

The designed maximum operating speed of an HRW engine s something like 2,200 RPM, whereas a Kelvin K series seems to be about one third of that, and Gardner's maybe around half of that?

 

An HRW4 is surely twice what any leisure narrow boat could possibly actually need in practice.

 

I have been out for a trip on a boat powered by an HA6 - not a million miles in terms of power and how it is delivered from an HRW4, and certainly a far better comparison than either of yours. The boat tried to do approaching 4mph in tick-over, and the only realistic way of doing anything else was to have it out of gear more often than it was in it.

 

I'll stick with "far far".

[Athy]

 

.

 

I'll stick with "far far".

Fair fair enough. Thanks for the explanation.

[FadeToScarlet]

Neither of you are comparing like with like, are you?The designed maximum operating speed of an HRW engine s something like 2,200 RPM, whereas a Kelvin K series seems to be about one third of that, and Gardner's maybe around half of that?An HRW4 is surely twice what any leisure narrow boat could possibly actually need in practice.I have been out for a trip on a boat powered by an HA6 - not a million miles in terms of power and how it is delivered from an HRW4, and certainly a far better comparison than either of yours. The boat tried to do approaching 4mph in tick-over, and the only realistic way of doing anything else was to have it out of gear more often than it was in it.I'll stick with "far far".

I know a boat that has an HRW4. 71' river class "replica". Never steered it, though, so can't comment on the suitability.

[alan_fincher]

I know a boat that has an HRW4. 71' river class "replica". Never steered it, though, so can't comment on the suitability.

So is it driving one of those demountable Harbourmaster thingies ?!?

 

(Any other "River class replica" wouldn't have an engine at all!)

[MtB]

^{Well, it has about the same cc as a Gardner 3LW and there are quite a few of those in longer narrowboats. is it so excessively large for n/b use?}

 

Well my HRW2 is rated at 30HP and plenty to push along a 70ft loaded pair so I'm imagining the HRW4 is twice the power.

 

And yes both the Kelvin K2 and the Gardner 3LW are excessively large for a narrowboat too, in my opinion!

 

MtB

[FadeToScarlet]

So is it driving one of those demountable Harbourmaster thingies ?!?(Any other "River class replica" wouldn't have an engine at all!)

No, it's in a rear engine room. Incidentally, the boat was apparently the support vessel when filming Rosie and Jim. Presumably they didn't show the episode where they waterski behind it...

 

More: it's owned by a forum member, jckm2000.

Edited September 11, 2014 by FadeToScarlet

[IanM]

No, it's in a rear engine room. Incidentally, the boat was apparently the support vessel when filming Rosie and Jim. Presumably they didn't show the episode where they waterski behind it...

 

More: it's owned by a forum member, jckm2000.

 

I remember them posting the pictures of the boat on here before. I really rather liked it

 

(then again I am a huge fan of the Admiral / River Class style of boats)

[Sabcat]

 

I remember them posting the pictures of the boat on here before. I really rather liked it

 

(then again I am a huge fan of the Admiral / River Class style of boats)

 

I very nearly bought one in 1998 it was at Aldridge. Axe iirc

[James Owen]

We've just finished putting a cabin on a customers boat which has an HW4 in it, I think it's around 38hp at 1500rpm. Given that a HA/B3 will give you 36hp and there's plenty of them in narrowboats which manage without raising many eyebrows, it doesn't seem too big in relation.

As an aside, whilst they're being mentioned does anyone have any information regarding the River Class butty 'Hay'?

[Sabcat]

We've just finished putting a cabin on a customers boat which has an HW4 in it, I think it's around 38hp at 1500rpm. Given that a HA/B3 will give you 36hp and there's plenty of them in narrowboats which manage without raising many eyebrows, it doesn't seem too big in relation.

As an aside, whilst they're being mentioned does anyone have any information regarding the River Class butty 'Hay'?

HRW4 is more like 50hp at 2000rpm

[RLWP]

HRW3 is 44.25 at 2200, can't find the HR4 at the moment but 50 sounds right

 

http://www.winget.co.uk/document/R.A.%20LISTER%20HR3%20WORKSHOP%20MANUAL.pdf

 

Richard

[Sabcat]

Hi all,

 

I recently looked at a boat with a Lister HRW 4 onboard. The exhaust was pretty smoky especially when put under load and the gentleman that owned the boat kept the oil level way below the recommend minimum suggested on the dipstick. I didn't really understand why he did that but he did give a reason - something to do with the engine starting more easily in the cold...??

 

I know nothing at all about engines, as you can probably tell, so any help with this would be very much appreciated.

 

Thank you.

 

To answer your question, the way I'd go about things in your situation would be to first find out if it is indeed leaking diesel into the oil as others have suggested and from where. If that is happening, fix it and change the oil. See where you are then with the engine.

[Athy]

We've just finished putting a cabin on a customers boat which has an HW4 in it, I think it's around 38hp at 1500rpm. Given that a HA/B3 will give you 36hp and there's plenty of them in narrowboats which manage without raising many eyebrows, it doesn't seem too big in relation.

As an aside, whilst they're being mentioned does anyone have any information regarding the River Class butty 'Hay'?

Aye, but the HW is a different beastie from the HRW - slightly fewer c.c. and slightly fewer h.p.

[by'eck]

 

Well my HRW2 is rated at 30HP and plenty to push along a 70ft loaded pair so I'm imagining the HRW4 is twice the power.

 

And yes both the Kelvin K2 and the Gardner 3LW are excessively large for a narrowboat too, in my opinion!

 

MtB

 

Fair comment and certainly true on canals. However in my situation the torque from a third cylinder (JP3 or 3LW) may be an improvement on the JP2 I have given load from alternators when charging heavily or when on rivers. The alternator drive gearing (around 5:1) means that the engine is barking and sometimes on the verge of black smoking under such conditions, especially with washing machine running.

 

Clearly more revs (therefore power) would alleviate this situation which occurs most noticeably at a lowly 550 rpm, but that would actually lower speed and therefore waste diesel on many shallow canals.

 

Other answers would be a prop that gives less load to the engine or lower alternator gearing, but as both are well matched in other respects I wouldn't want to change.

[alan_fincher]

HRW4 is more like 50hp at 2000rpm

Or quite a bit more at 2,200 RPM, which is where some of them seem to be rated.

 

The comparison to an HA3 (33HP at 1,800RPM) just made is hardly valid - an HRW4 is getting on for twice an HA3 - more like an HA6.

 

Even an HA3 takes a bit of taming!