Overtaking

[john6767]

You are closing in on a boat in front on a wide straight deep waterway that is approximately 100ft wide. The boat in front has seen you and is in the right most third of the waterway.

 

You decide to overtake the boat in front, which side would you overtake on, and why?

[keble]

On its left cos it's the way I've always done it!

100 ft wide? You must be on the G&S?

[Keeping Up]

Definitely on the left. Not only is it the normal side to do it (equivalent to overtaking a car on the right on a British road) but also because it puts you, the faster boat, in the deeper water and further from the bank. But of course the rule "overtaking boat keeps clear" also applies if the slower boat decides to do something odd.

[Alan de Enfield]

There is most 'water' to the left (port) side of the boat to be overtaken.

Give Two long hoots and two short hoots (I intend to overtake on your port side)

 

Why - Rule 13 of the Col Regs. The boat being overtaken is in the right, and the overtaking boat must keep 'out of the way' of the boat being overtaken.

 

(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules of Part B, Sections I and II, any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.

( A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with a another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam, that is, in such a position with reference to the vessel she is overtaking, that at night she would be able to see only the sternlight of that vessel but neither of her sidelights.

© When a vessel is in any doubt as to whether she is overtaking another, she shall assume that this is the case and act accordingly.

(d) Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.

[patty-ann]

OK please where do I find the tooting rules? Thankyou,

[keble]

OK please where do I find the tooting rules? Thankyou,

Been discussed before here. Try searching for sound signals. Good luck!

[Alan de Enfield]

OK please where do I find the tooting rules? Thankyou,

 

International Col-regs

 

http://www.bosunsmate.org/seamanship/rulesoftheroad.php#rule35

 

Overtaking rule 34C (1)

 

It is well worth taking the RYA day skipper course (offshore) as much of it is applucable to inland waterways

[john6767]

Thanks guys, exactly what I thought, and I have since checked the COLREGS, which Alan quotes, and the BW byelaws, which I assume are still valid which say

 

 

Except as hereinafter mentioned the master of a vessel

overtaking another vessel proceeding in the same direction shall

steer his vessel in such a manner that his vessel shall pass with

her starboard side nearest to the vessel overtaken and the

master of the vessel overtaken shall steer his vessel to her

starboard side so as to permit the overtaking vessel to pass in

safety on the port side of the vessel overtaken

 

So I can not see that there is any legitimate reason to do this, and he did not try to inform me of his intentions either by sound signal or VHF.

 

As guessed this was on the G&S this afternoon, when the narrowboat that was slowly catching me up (I was doing about 4mph and I would guess he was doing perhaps 5mph) chose to overtake my in the 20ft or so of water to my starboard side rather than the 70ft to my port side. I was gob smacked. To rub it it more, my starboard side was the offside of the canal and before he got past me which took some time, there were some over hanging bushes so he started pulling over by necessity into my path, and I had to more over to port into the centre of the channel.

 

There was never any danger, but I really can not understand why he did this, and he just blanked me when I posed that question as he passed.

[nicknorman]

The overtaking thing: recently someone asked if we wanted to overtake, we did. They proceeded to pull towards the left of the canal so, not being proud, we overtook using the greater space - on the right. There seemed no reason why he didn't pull to the right as expected, except for lack of knowledge.

 

The blanking thing: this really annoys me. Why do people who don't quite know what to say to you just blank you instead of saying something? Anything!

 

As we approached the lock at Etruria Jn to go down, there was a boat also approaching to go down from the Caldon direction. We were perhaps 50 yds closer so "our lock" as far as I was concerned. A woman appeared from below the lock and wound the top paddles. These locks are very deep so I presumed she was with a boat coming up. But doubt set in when the other boat kept coming and no boat appeared in the lock. I called to her "are you with that boat?" pointing. Blank. I called to the other boat "is she your crew"? Blank. After a further query in the end I got a nod so I said "you might as well go first then" which they did. I realised that she had taken the pedestrian short-cut between Caldon and T&M which is why she had appeared from below the lock.

 

Afterwards she said she wasn't sure who had priority under those particular circumstances. I forbore to lecture her on just how annoying it is to be blanked even if unsure of the ground, especially as the question was a simple one to answer "are you with that boat" not "are you first or are we". Grrrr. Everyone hates being ignored, especially so pointedly.

[Alan de Enfield]

Thanks guys, exactly what I thought, and I have since checked the COLREGS, which Alan quotes, and the BW byelaws, which I assume are still valid which say

 

 

So I can not see that there is any legitimate reason to do this, and he did not try to inform me of his intentions either by sound signal or VHF.

 

 

 

I would hazard a 'guess' that of the 30,000 boats registered on the C&RT waterways that 25,000+ of them have no idea about either the Col-regs or the BW byelaw quoted above - of the (possible) 5000 that do I would expect that the majority of those are boaters with lumpy water experience where sound signals are the norm and are expected. How many canal-boaters have read / learned the Col-Regs, or even consider them relevant on the 'muddy-ditch' ?

 

These are pure guesstimates and I can provide no evidence to support them.

 

Today, as I was leaving a lock on the Trent a 'huge' cruiser was waiting to come in (he was so big he had lowered his radar arch to get under the Trent bridge). As I came out of the lock he was on my right hand side, he started to turn across in front of me so we could pass Port to Port (as would be the norm) which would have meant us both doing Z bends to avoid each other - I gave 2 long hoots (to signify I was turning to Port) and he immediately turned to his Port (I'm guessing he was a lumpy water boater), I turned to my Port and we happly and safely passed each other on the "wrong side" but gave him a better line into the lock

[john6767]

 

I would hazard a 'guess' that of the 30,000 boats registered on the C&RT waterways that 25,000+ of them have no idea about either the Col-regs or the BW byelaw quoted above - of the (possible) 5000 that do I would expect that the majority of those are boaters with lumpy water experience where sound signals are the norm and are expected. How many canal-boaters have read / learned the Col-Regs, or even consider them relevant on the 'muddy-ditch' ?

 

These are pure guesstimates and I can provide no evidence to support them.

 

Today, as I was leaving a lock on the Trent a 'huge' cruiser was waiting to come in (he was so big he had lowered his radar arch to get under the Trent bridge). As I came out of the lock he was on my right hand side, he started to turn across in front of me so we could pass Port to Port (as would be the norm) which would have meant us both doing Z bends to avoid each other - I gave 2 long hoots (to signify I was turning to Port) and he immediately turned to his Port (I'm guessing he was a lumpy water boater), I turned to my Port and we happly and safely passed each other on the "wrong side" but gave him a better line into the lock

I do agree that most boaters will never have heard of COLREGS or read the byelaws. Using common sense and translating from driving on the roads, as presumable everyone know that in a boat you "drive" on the right, then it follows that you overtake on the left. So I would have expected everyone to have gone with that, and just to be clear in this case there was no reason not to overtake me on the left, that was the centre of the channel with the most width, and there was no one coming the other way.

 

Anyway the key bit I left out is that this was not a private boat, so I would have expected that he would know the rules very well.

[ditchcrawler]

Thanks guys, exactly what I thought, and I have since checked the COLREGS, which Alan quotes, and the BW byelaws, which I assume are still valid which say

 

 

So I can not see that there is any legitimate reason to do this, and he did not try to inform me of his intentions either by sound signal or VHF.

 

As guessed this was on the G&S this afternoon, when the narrowboat that was slowly catching me up (I was doing about 4mph and I would guess he was doing perhaps 5mph) chose to overtake my in the 20ft or so of water to my starboard side rather than the 70ft to my port side. I was gob smacked. To rub it it more, my starboard side was the offside of the canal and before he got past me which took some time, there were some over hanging bushes so he started pulling over by necessity into my path, and I had to more over to port into the centre of the channel.

 

There was never any danger, but I really can not understand why he did this, and he just blanked me when I posed that question as he passed.

Because they didn't know any better

I do agree that most boaters will never have heard of COLREGS or read the byelaws. Using common sense and translating from driving on the roads, as presumable everyone know that in a boat you "drive" on the right, then it follows that you overtake on the left. So I would have expected everyone to have gone with that, and just to be clear in this case there was no reason not to overtake me on the left, that was the centre of the channel with the most width, and there was no one coming the other way.

 

Anyway the key bit I left out is that this was not a private boat, so I would have expected that he would know the rules very well.

Obviously you are not suggesting it was a hire boat, so who was it?

[john6767]

Because they didn't know any better

Obviously you are not suggesting it was a hire boat, so who was it?

No not a hire boat, a trip boat.

[Alan de Enfield]

I do agree that most boaters will never have heard of COLREGS or read the byelaws. Using common sense and translating from driving on the roads, as presumable everyone know that in a boat you "drive" on the right, then it follows that you overtake on the left.

 

I think you are giving to much credit to 'sense' & 'thinking' - I believe it much more likely that the 'boat-driver' would react as a car driver and overtake on the right.

 

I do not think that they would work out drive car on the left, so overtake on the right, therefore drive on the right, overtake on the left - No - much to complicated.

[john6767]

 

I think you are giving to much credit to 'sense' & 'thinking' - I believe it much more likely that the 'boat-driver' would react as a car driver and overtake on the right.

 

I do not think that they would work out drive car on the left, so overtake on the right, therefore drive on the right, overtake on the left - No - much to complicated.

I would not like to meet him on the roads in Europe or the US then! I agree perhaps that was his thinking, you overtake on the right on the roads, but he must get that in a boat you are effectively on the other side of the road, I hope. According to his organisations web site he is "specially trained & qualified", but I guess it does not state that is in boat handling.

[Bettie Boo]

Being on a WB, we find we quite often pull over to let the "boy racers in the skinny boats" go past, our normal cruising speed being about 2.5km it would be quite unfair to hold up people who can quite easily travel at 4km without causing damage to the canal.

 

Normally we pull over to the right (starboard) to let them pass, but there have been occasions that we've pulled over to the left (port) to let them pass if it's a clear straight away and the offside (right) is overgrown. At present we have a pretty wimpy horn, that can "just" be heard at the back of the boat, I don't really think another boat traveling behind us could actually hear it, so we presently rely on hand signals which have worked just fine.

 

Is this wrong?

 

PS - We are looking for a more suitable horn.

 

PSS - "boy racer" comment said tongue in cheek

[Alan de Enfield]

Bettie Boo, on 14 Jun 2014 - 11:59 PM, said:

Being on a WB, we find we quite often pull over to let the "boy racers in the skinny boats" go past, our normal cruising speed being about 2.5km it would be quite unfair to hold up people who can quite easily travel at 4km without causing damage to the canal.

 

Normally we pull over to the right (starboard) to let them pass, but there have been occasions that we've pulled over to the left (port) to let them pass if it's a clear straight away and the offside (right) is overgrown. At present we have a pretty wimpy horn, that can "just" be heard at the back of the boat, I don't really think another boat traveling behind us could actually hear it, so we presently rely on hand signals which have worked just fine.

 

Is this wrong?

 

PS - We are looking for a more suitable horn.

 

PSS - "boy racer" comment said tongue in cheek

 

What does 'wrong' mean ?

If we take it as meaning that it is not the 'correct' way of doing things then yes - your hand signals are 'wrong', but as I suggested above I very much doubt the vast majority of boaters would understand your sound signals anyway, so your hand-signals are probably more likely to be understood.

 

Now - playing devils advocat - if an accident resulted from a misunderstanding of your hand signals, and the insurance company (or God forbid a Judge at an inquest) asked you if you had given the correct signals in accordance with the "International Collision Regulations", and your response was "No - I just waved them on" I dont think it would go well for you.

 

Get a BIG-HOOTER, (or even one of those gas cylinder hand held ones - you can point it at the boat behind) learn the rules and signals and let the liability for error be on the part of the other boater.

 

I may appear to be on a bit of a hobby-horse, but I believe that we should all be singing from the same 'hymn-sheet', not to obey the rules for the rules sake, but because doing so means that other people know what your intentions are and it potentially avoids no-end of problems.

 

Edit - see my signature

Edited June 14, 2014 by Alan de Enfield

[john6767]

Being on a WB, we find we quite often pull over to let the "boy racers in the skinny boats" go past, our normal cruising speed being about 2.5km it would be quite unfair to hold up people who can quite easily travel at 4km without causing damage to the canal.

 

Normally we pull over to the right (starboard) to let them pass, but there have been occasions that we've pulled over to the left (port) to let them pass if it's a clear straight away and the offside (right) is overgrown. At present we have a pretty wimpy horn, that can "just" be heard at the back of the boat, I don't really think another boat traveling behind us could actually hear it, so we presently rely on hand signals which have worked just fine.

 

Is this wrong?

 

PS - We are looking for a more suitable horn.

 

PSS - "boy racer" comment said tongue in cheek

I think your situation is very different to the one I described. The scale of the G&S is much bigger than the GU for example, it is a ship canal after all, and your WB would be dwarfed by some of the boats on there. The speed limit is 6mph. If you want to play by the rules, then the overtaking is the responsibility of the overtaking boat, not of the boat being overtaken.

[patty-ann]

Thank you very much for the tooting rules i will get them copied and laminated, one teensy problem its hell of a stretch from tiller to tooting button. Have to let go of one to use t'other!

[keble]

John, Was it the Elgar or one of the day trip boats from the docks?

In 6 years on the G&S I haven't had any such experiences. Got to say the other boat was seriously wrong!

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

Hi ya Gang,

All the Tooting was to no avail yesterday,

Boats had to Nose into the Bank, Raft along side other Moored Boats, even tirn and run !.

If you look at the Big Fishing Boat with the Orange ball fenders, you can see him hung over port side hanging on to a rope, to let them clear out the way.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ylg10zxc20d5tsv/IMAG0261.jpg

 

Not one of the incoming river users had a Horn to make there overtaking intentions clear!.

But all ended well !.

Edited June 15, 2014 by Paul's Nulife4-2

[Phil Ambrose]

 

What does 'wrong' mean ?

If we take it as meaning that it is not the 'correct' way of doing things then yes - your hand signals are 'wrong', but as I suggested above I very much doubt the vast majority of boaters would understand your sound signals anyway, so your hand-signals are probably more likely to be understood.

 

Now - playing devils advocat - if an accident resulted from a misunderstanding of your hand signals, and the insurance company (or God forbid a Judge at an inquest) asked you if you had given the correct signals in accordance with the "International Collision Regulations", and your response was "No - I just waved them on" I dont think it would go well for you.

 

Get a BIG-HOOTER, (or even one of those gas cylinder hand held ones - you can point it at the boat behind) learn the rules and signals and let the liability for error be on the part of the other boater.

 

I may appear to be on a bit of a hobby-horse, but I believe that we should all be singing from the same 'hymn-sheet', not to obey the rules for the rules sake, but because doing so means that other people know what your intentions are and it potentially avoids no-end of problems.

 

Edit - see my signature

I agree with Alan. I always use sound signals but MOH always says "why bother, noone understands them" but if owt went wrong it would not be my fault.

Phil

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

Hi ya Phil,

I certainly think that sound Signals, & Col Regs in general are taken more seriously on Tidal rivers, Harbors, Eateries, Coastal, & ofcourse at Sea.

But as with so many other things, on inland waterways, there seams a relaxing approach to most things, especially in respect of the Col Regs, & Marpol.

But its like Health n Safety, Not adhereing to the rules is rarely a problem,,,until something goes wrong !.

Some People tend to Pick n Choose what rules they want to adhere to.

Edited June 15, 2014 by Paul's Nulife4-2

[Bettie Boo]

 

What does 'wrong' mean ?

If we take it as meaning that it is not the 'correct' way of doing things then yes - your hand signals are 'wrong', but as I suggested above I very much doubt the vast majority of boaters would understand your sound signals anyway, so your hand-signals are probably more likely to be understood.

 

Now - playing devils advocat - if an accident resulted from a misunderstanding of your hand signals, and the insurance company (or God forbid a Judge at an inquest) asked you if you had given the correct signals in accordance with the "International Collision Regulations", and your response was "No - I just waved them on" I dont think it would go well for you.

 

Get a BIG-HOOTER, (or even one of those gas cylinder hand held ones - you can point it at the boat behind) learn the rules and signals and let the liability for error be on the part of the other boater.

 

I may appear to be on a bit of a hobby-horse, but I believe that we should all be singing from the same 'hymn-sheet', not to obey the rules for the rules sake, but because doing so means that other people know what your intentions are and it potentially avoids no-end of problems.

 

Edit - see my signature

Hi Alan,

 

Thanks for that, the info is much appreciated.

 

Yet again, I didn't structure my question very well. We appreciate we should be using our wimpy horn at bridges, blind turns as well as when pulling over to be overtaken (as well as other navigational maneuvers), which we do. We are still learning the different toots and I will be making a copy of your post #7 to have at the tiller with us so we aren't just randomly tooting - but using the horn in the correct "language" so others can understand our intentions.

 

My question should have read more along the lines of.....more often than not we pull over to the right to let boats pass however; on occasion we pull over to the left if it has a better bank and not overgrown. Is this wrong?

[Alan de Enfield]

Bettie Boo, on 15 Jun 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

 

My question should have read more along the lines of.....more often than not we pull over to the right to let boats pass however; on occasion we pull over to the left if it has a better bank and not overgrown. Is this wrong?

 

It does contravene the BW 'byelaws' and is not what any other boat would expect you to do, so I would say that yes - it is wrong.

 

You as the overtaken boat have priority and it is (legally) up to the overtaking boat to ;

1) make his intentions clear

2) to keep out of your way

 

If you start doing 'the unexpected' you may get 5 toots that means "I have not got a clue what you are doing - and I dont think you have either ?"