Overtaking

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

Hi Alan,

 

Thanks for that, the info is much appreciated.

 

Yet again, I didn't structure my question very well. We appreciate we should be using our wimpy horn at bridges, blind turns as well as when pulling over to be overtaken (as well as other navigational maneuvers), which we do. We are still learning the different toots and I will be making a copy of your post #7 to have at the tiller with us so we aren't just randomly tooting - but using the horn in the correct "language" so others can understand our intentions.

 

My question should have read more along the lines of.....more often than not we pull over to the right to let boats pass however; on occasion we pull over to the left if it has a better bank and not overgrown. Is this wrong?

Hi ya BB.

So let's imagine you are Making a delivery of

Donuts to me on the River Arun. So with your full understanding of (Rule 1,,,Rule 2,,,Rule 3,,,& Rule 4) You are belting along the at 7mph, (Complying with Rule 6).

You look astern (complying with Rule 5), &

Notice a line of Fishing Boats pushing up from seaward on a flood tide. So, you Decide to move to a clear safe and open area to the 'Left Side' of the River to allow the Fishing fleet clear unobstructed water & room to pass, and sound Two short blasts (complying with Rule 34),

At this point you should receive back two long & 1 short blast (again to complying with Rule 34),

You then should reply with 1 long, 1 short, 1 long 1short (again complying with the same Rule 34). Now to stop making way, you Decide to apply a bit of Astern to the prop to hold you on station & match the incoming Tide whilst all the boats pass, So you Sound 3 short (complying with yet the same Rule 34) as this is quicker & safer than Dropping your Stern

Kedge Anchor and raising your Anchor Ball (complying with Rule 30).

Now with the boats safely passed, you make sure it's safe for you to make way (Complying

with Rule 5,,,& Rule 6) sound 1 short (complying with Rule 34 yet again) and move to the 'Right side' of the River to complete your Delivery to me. (That is now late BTW !).

So just read up on Rules 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 30 & 34 for starters, then the rest at your pleasure, Now throw into the mix, Pilot Vessels, Harbour Rules & Bye laws, Commercial High Tonnage Ships that are restricted in there ability to manover, Jet Skies &

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ylg10zxc20d5tsv/IMAG0261.jpg

On a busy Bank holiday Weekend, & you can imagine the absolute Chaos,,,,,But it sort of works fine.

 

Obviously I list all the above in jest, Alan's post above is correct in most situations, & I may need a bit of correcting on some of the rules, But can you imagine the din of Horns all day long !.

But it has got it's serious side as this picture shows courtesy of the local paper a cpl of years ago, literally a few hundred feed from where I am moored.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/c8wbijj7aso1x2f/_54661113_mungo_stuck11.jpg

Edited June 15, 2014 by Paul's Nulife4-2

[Keeping Up]

As I've said before, look up the sound signals for I'm in reverse gear, I'm trying to turn round, I need to pass the wrong (port) side of you, Get out of the way. Then translate the same into Morse Code, it spells S H I T which is pretty much the same message!

[john6767]

John, Was it the Elgar or one of the day trip boats from the docks?

In 6 years on the G&S I haven't had any such experiences. Got to say the other boat was seriously wrong!

It certainly was not Elgar, phew if that had come past in a 20ft gap that would have been exciting! We came across Elgar on the Severn and again on the G&S, and it seems to be operated very professionally, and the guy sounds very posh on the radio!

[alan_fincher]

Being on a WB, we find we quite often pull over to let the "boy racers in the skinny boats" go past, our normal cruising speed being about 2.5km it would be quite unfair to hold up people who can quite easily travel at 4km without causing damage to the canal.

Do you actually mean....

 

2.5 km per hour, (which is less than 1.6 mph)

 

and

 

4 km per hour, ( which is still only about 2.5 mph)?

 

If so, I think you'll be doing a lot of moving over on the GU, (or causing very great deals of frustration).

 

On much of it, somewhere near a legal 4mph is possible by a well designed narrowboat - that is over 6.4 kph - starting to get towards three times your 2.5 kph number, (if that's what you mean).

 

(For info, the only way I could possibly follow a boat at 2.5 kph in "Sickle" is by spending more time with it taken out out of gear than in it. The problem is when it is not in gear, with no prop-wash passing over the rudder, it steers very little - this well less than ideal when you are behind a very slowly moving boat.)

My question should have read more along the lines of.....more often than not we pull over to the right to let boats pass however; on occasion we pull over to the left if it has a better bank and not overgrown. Is this wrong?

 

I'd say at best it is confusing, and at worst, yes, wrong.

 

You as a wide-beam probably float in less water than many overtaking narrowboats, so making for the side with the better bank may also mean you are heading for the deeper side, and forcing the overtaking boat into a shallower depth, which may make their overtaking manoeuvre more hazardous and long winded than it needs to be. They are the one likely to be "digging in" as they pass you at your much slower speed, so need the depth more than you.

[keble]

It certainly was not Elgar, phew if that had come past in a 20ft gap that would have been exciting! We came across Elgar on the Severn and again on the G&S, and it seems to be operated very professionally, and the guy sounds very posh on the radio!

So I guess one of the docks trip boats. They tend to be pretty fast, but that kind of overtaking is very poor.

I once had an unnerving experience with Elgar. I approached Lincombe lock from the north. The lock landing on the left of the river was occupied with 2 NBs so I had to wait on the right under overhanging trees.

Elgar was in the lock, coming up - she looked absolutely HUGE! But she came out of the lock very smoothly and calmly. Unfortunately the slight wash pushed me further under the tree branches and my pole went AWOL. I never have got round to replacing it ...

[Bettie Boo]

Do you actually mean....

 

2.5 km per hour, (which is less than 1.6 mph)

 

and

 

4 km per hour, ( which is still only about 2.5 mph)?

 

If so, I think you'll be doing a lot of moving over on the GU, (or causing very great deals of frustration).

 

On much of it, somewhere near a legal 4mph is possible by a well designed narrowboat - that is over 6.4 kph - starting to get towards three times your 2.5 kph number, (if that's what you mean).

 

(For info, the only way I could possibly follow a boat at 2.5 kph in "Sickle" is by spending more time with it taken out out of gear than in it. The problem is when it is not in gear, with no prop-wash passing over the rudder, it steers very little - this well less than ideal when you are behind a very slowly moving boat.)

 

Sorry Alan, gave the wrong measurement. Should have been "we normally travel at 2.5mph vs the "normal" cruising speed of the little boats at 4 mph". And yes, we really don't want to cause anyone frustration by getting stuck behind us, hence we pull & slow down ever further to let faster boats pass as soon as we notice them and come to a spot where we can safely.

 

I'd say at best it is confusing, and at worst, yes, wrong.

 

You as a wide-beam probably float in less water than many overtaking narrowboats, so making for the side with the better bank may also mean you are heading for the deeper side, and forcing the overtaking boat into a shallower depth, which may make their overtaking manoeuvre more hazardous and long winded than it needs to be. They are the one likely to be "digging in" as they pass you at your much slower speed, so need the depth more than you.

 

Fair point

[alan_fincher]

Sorry Alan, gave the wrong measurement. Should have been "we normally travel at 2.5mph vs the "normal" cruising speed of the little boats at 4 mph".

 

 

Ah, that's a bit more understandable - I did wonder.

 

In mph it sounds fine, in kph, would have made you one of the slowest in the area!

[StevieN]

I seem to recall a post on a Faceache group very recently recalling a working boat (trip boat?) overtaking another narrowboat whilst they were traversing through Blisworth Tunnel.

Evidently this involved - according to the OP, some "pushing aside."

 

There were lots of -

"you were going too slow"

"You must keep to a reasonable speed when in tunnels" etc. etc.,

 

So, what is the definitive rule/law/etiquette in this circumstance?

[IanD]

24 minutes ago, StevieN said:

I seem to recall a post on a Faceache group very recently recalling a working boat (trip boat?) overtaking another narrowboat whilst they were traversing through Blisworth Tunnel.

Evidently this involved - according to the OP, some "pushing aside."

 

There were lots of -

"you were going too slow"

"You must keep to a reasonable speed when in tunnels" etc. etc.,

 

So, what is the definitive rule/law/etiquette in this circumstance?

 

Isn't it the same as anywhere else -- a slower boat should allow a faster boat to overtake so long as it is safe to do so?

 

There's certainly litle risk overtaking in a tunnel which is wide enough for two boats to pass in opposite directions, with no other boats to hit or things to collide with. But like anywhere else, the boat being overtaken should probably slow down a bit more to prevent an endless "mating elephants" event... 😉 

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

2 hours ago, StevieN said:

I seem to recall a post on a Faceache group very recently recalling a working boat (trip boat?) overtaking another narrowboat whilst they were traversing through Blisworth Tunnel.

Evidently this involved - according to the OP, some "pushing aside."

 

There were lots of -

"you were going too slow"

"You must keep to a reasonable speed when in tunnels" etc. etc.,

 

So, what is the definitive rule/law/etiquette in this circumstance?

If you’re first in the tunnel go as fast as you can don’t hold folk up behind. 
That to me would be good etiquette. 
 

And light your stove with green wood to be sure. 👍 
 

 

[ditchcrawler]

43 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

And light your stove with green wood to be sure. 👍 
 

 

If your boats name is President then there is no need

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Just now, ditchcrawler said:

If your boats name is President then there is no need

but do they steam on through?

 

that’d be a good call over taking President in a tunnel. 
10 points for that. 

[Wanderer Vagabond]

4 hours ago, IanD said:

 

Isn't it the same as anywhere else -- a slower boat should allow a faster boat to overtake so long as it is safe to do so?

 

There's certainly litle risk overtaking in a tunnel which is wide enough for two boats to pass in opposite directions, with no other boats to hit or things to collide with. But like anywhere else, the boat being overtaken should probably slow down a bit more to prevent an endless "mating elephants" event... 😉 

There might be 'little risk' but two boats going in the same direction in a tunnel is simply going to be a PITA since they will both be trying to draw the same water, so slowing both of them down. I would wave another boat past before entering a tunnel, or wave them past after we've left the tunnel, but whilst in the tunnel, as long as I'm maintaining 3mph they can fecking wait. It annoys me when in a tunnel if another boat decides to try to get as close to my stern as they can, since they are just slowing both of us down. They might complain that I'm 'Not going fast enough' but whose fault is that? The boat that is 'drawing' my water, that is who, so if they are dumb enough to do that, they can wait. In most tunnels (and many canals) I maintain position in the centre of the channel (deepest point), moving over only for oncoming boats. If the boat coming up behind me on a canal is clearly going faster than I am, as happened to me yesterday on the Coventry canal when an unladen heritage boat, high at the bows, so obviously not drawing as much water as I was, I'm more than happy to move over (although with something of a communication failure, the helm said to me as he passed,"I wouldn't moor there mate, it's a bit shallow"). In a tunnel however, if they want to deliberately slow me down by drawing my water, then we can both wait.

 

I had a similar issue a few years back going across the Pontcysyllte Aqueduct, the bl**dy boat behind caught right up with my stern so I couldn't 'go' because they were drawing all my water, so we both went across at a snail's pace. I tried to explain to him that if he stayed back a couple of boat lengths, we'd both get across quicker, but he didn't seem to 'get it'.

[IanD]

12 minutes ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

There might be 'little risk' but two boats going in the same direction in a tunnel is simply going to be a PITA since they will both be trying to draw the same water, so slowing both of them down. I would wave another boat past before entering a tunnel, or wave them past after we've left the tunnel, but whilst in the tunnel, as long as I'm maintaining 3mph they can fecking wait. It annoys me when in a tunnel if another boat decides to try to get as close to my stern as they can, since they are just slowing both of us down. They might complain that I'm 'Not going fast enough' but whose fault is that? The boat that is 'drawing' my water, that is who, so if they are dumb enough to do that, they can wait. In most tunnels (and many canals) I maintain position in the centre of the channel (deepest point), moving over only for oncoming boats. If the boat coming up behind me on a canal is clearly going faster than I am, as happened to me yesterday on the Coventry canal when an unladen heritage boat, high at the bows, so obviously not drawing as much water as I was, I'm more than happy to move over (although with something of a communication failure, the helm said to me as he passed,"I wouldn't moor there mate, it's a bit shallow"). In a tunnel however, if they want to deliberately slow me down by drawing my water, then we can both wait.

 

I had a similar issue a few years back going across the Pontcysyllte Aqueduct, the bl**dy boat behind caught right up with my stern so I couldn't 'go' because they were drawing all my water, so we both went across at a snail's pace. I tried to explain to him that if he stayed back a couple of boat lengths, we'd both get across quicker, but he didn't seem to 'get it'.

If the boat if front is going reasonably fast then I'd agree, just stay some way behing them. But I've been behind boats absolutely crawling along, and if it's a long tunnel -- and especially if the one behind is a trip boat -- then they should let the boat behind past.

 

Tailgating if the front boat is going reasonably fast is just as bad an idea as it is on the roads... 😞

Edited June 9, 2024 by IanD

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

I don’t think I’ve ever been through a tunnel where I couldn’t just wait and be patient with the boat in front,

annoyed with them maybe, 

the longest two way tunnels are only half hour, so a boat would have to be going some slow pace to want to over take,

perhaps turning that half hour into 60min would get on me wick
 

 

[LadyG]

I rarely use the horn, but on occasion I could be manoevering in the fairway when a boat approaches from the other direction, so I give three toots:

" operating astern propulsion" which does not mean i am currently going astern,  it can be interpreted as i  am manoeuvering and can't get out of your way. 

The other signal is the long blast when entering a blind bend or suchlike, often where I feel I need to sit the bow in the middle, and if someone is coming in the opposite direction with a similar mindset, he will have to hold tight to the bank rather than risk a head to head.

Of course if he has pre empted me, I respond to his signal by holding tight to my bank, i might give a quick toot ( single, steering to starboard) to indicate my presence.. Obviously one needs to be proceeding with due caution.

I always remember Port (as a drink) I'll have a double, two toots.

I have a whistle to use to attract attention, eg swimmers, canoeists etc. 

If in doubt at tunnels  I prefer to let overtaking boats  pass if there is a lock landing, he must be going faster than me or he would not have caught up!

With respect to the use of vhf, ship to ship, not sure that that is any part of Colregs, it certainly used to be discouraged  as an alternative to sound signals.

I have used the vhf on occasion to communicate with shore, but I don't encourage unnecessary conversation as I am busy handling the boat, so after establishing procedures I tend to end the conversation with  'myvesselname, Out",

or " maintaining listening watch, myvesselname,  Out"

and leave the radio ON.

Edited June 9, 2024 by LadyG

[Wanderer Vagabond]

9 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

I don’t think I’ve ever been through a tunnel where I couldn’t just wait and be patient with the boat in front,

annoyed with them maybe, 

the longest two way tunnels are only half hour, so a boat would have to be going some slow pace to want to over take,

perhaps turning that half hour into 60min would get on me wick
 

 

Have to say that a few years back I 'dodged a bullet' on that front, it was at Blisworth Tunnel as I recall. I'd been stuck behind a boat on the Grand Union just North of Milton Keynes for over an hour travelling at a speed that was so slow that I was constantly putting the boat in neutral and drifting. The helm made no effort to indicate that I should pass but just continued bimbling along. Eventually I lost patience and on a straight section managed to 'power' past him although doing so ended up with his boat running into the bank as the wave from my bow pushed his bow across. Can't say I was particularly proud of the outcome, but over an hour of 'being patient' had taken it's toll. We stopped at Stoke Bruerne for a meal-break and had almost finished when his boat hove into view again, heading towards Blisworth tunnel. I abandoned what was left of the lunch, cast off as quick as I could and headed off towards the tunnel. Once out the other side we moored up again as soon as we could and finished our cruising for the day. The 'offending' boat came up behind me and moored nearly 2 hours later and was then telling me about how abusive a load of boaters had been to him after they had got out of the tunnel. When he came out of the tunnel there were at least 6 boats immediately behind him! I would guess the last boat in the queue would have been choking on diesel fumes. I don't suppose if he'd 'legged' the boat through it would have taken any longer

[LadyG]

On 14/06/2014 at 22:31, nicknorman said:

The overtaking thing: recently someone asked if we wanted to overtake, we did. They proceeded to pull towards the left of the canal so, not being proud, we overtook using the greater space - on the right. There seemed no reason why he didn't pull to the right as expected, except for lack of knowledge.

 

The blanking thing: this really annoys me. Why do people who don't quite know what to say to you just blank you instead of saying something? Anything!

 

As we approached the lock at Etruria Jn to go down, there was a boat also approaching to go down from the Caldon direction. We were perhaps 50 yds closer so "our lock" as far as I was concerned. A woman appeared from .......

I would have thought your boat has priority,  its nearest the lock, its your water, she should have offered to put you through,.

if you were approaching any lock and the gates open, with no boat inside, you enter the lock. 

Edited June 9, 2024 by LadyG

[agg221]

1 hour ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

I don’t think I’ve ever been through a tunnel where I couldn’t just wait and be patient with the boat in front,

annoyed with them maybe, 

the longest two way tunnels are only half hour, so a boat would have to be going some slow pace to want to over take,

perhaps turning that half hour into 60min would get on me wick
 

 

Atlas and Malus are quite slow through Netherton. They were not in sight as we came down the main line before turning at Dudley Port, and were not in sight between the junction and the tunnel approach, but we caught them less than halfway through the tunnel. All perfectly reasonable - their right of way, nobody close at the time they entered the tunnel and passing a pair is not going to end well but there were half a dozen boats behind them by the end of it.

 

They let everyone past just down the Dudley No.2 but caught us up again part way through Gosty Hill. Oates is really bad through there - the boat is very deep and crabs, sticking to the wall. The first time we went through it took 1hr 40mins! We have honed our technique though and have now got it down to 33mins through a combination of two of us legging, the use of a set of wheels that stops the bow from jamming and outstanding steering by my younger daughter who countered the tendency to crab and didn't even graze the side in the first 200m. It amuses me that the tunnel board states an estimated 10mins passage!

 

Alec

Edited June 9, 2024 by agg221

[LadyG]

On 15/06/2014 at 00:42, patty-ann said:

Thank you very much for the tooting rules i will get them copied and laminated, one teensy problem its hell of a stretch from tiller to tooting button. Have to let go of one to use t'other!

Buy a handheld air horn.

Edited June 10, 2024 by LadyG

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Buy a handheld sir horn.

 

I'm guessing that in the last 10 years she may have found a solution.

 

 

For anyone wanting the 'sound signals' print this off and keep it by your helm.

Even if the 'other boat' doesn't understand your signal, you have at least made the effort, which would be in your favour in the event of an accident.

 

A 'short beep' should be 1 second and a 'long beep' 2 to 3 seconds.

 

 

[LadyG]

Its the responsibility of the overtaking boat to make his intentions clear. 

He cannot assume the boat in front has seen him, so a long blast and one or two short blasts should clarify.

If the boat in front uses hand signals it means he has seen you, and i dont see a problem overtaking on the sde he indicates without further ado, assuming the way ahead is clear, and you can get pàst him timeously.

On 15/06/2014 at 11:07, Bettie Boo said:

Hi Alan,

 

Thanks for that, the info is much appreciated.

 

Yet again, I didn't structure my question very well. We appreciate we should be using our wimpy horn at bridges, blind turns as well as when pulling over to be overtaken (as well as other navigational maneuvers), which we do. We are still learning the different toots and I will be making a copy of your post #7 to have at the tiller with us so we aren't just randomly tooting - but using the horn in the correct "language" so others can understand our intentions.

 

My question should have read more along the lines of.....more often than not we pull over to the right to let boats pass however; on occasion we pull over to the left if it has a better bank and not overgrown. Is this wrong?

Normally, Its not your job to position your boat to allow overtaking. If you are causing a problem, yes you could move over to the left bank, but if i saw a boat ahead taking to the oposite bank, ie turning to port, Id usually think he was going to moor up or somesuch.

Edited June 10, 2024 by LadyG

[Wanderer Vagabond]

53 minutes ago, LadyG said:

Its the responsibility of the overtaking boat to make his intentions clear. 

He cannot assume the boat in front has seen him, so a long blast and one or two short blasts should clarify.

If the boat in front uses hand signals it means he has seen you, and i dont see a problem overtaking on the sde he indicates without further ado, assuming the way ahead is clear, and you can get pàst him timeously.

Normally, Its not your job to position your boat to allow overtaking. If you are causing a problem, yes you could move over to the left bank, but if i saw a boat ahead taking to the oposite bank, ie turning to port, Id usually think he was going to moor up or somesuch.

It's early in the morning and perhaps I'm a bit confused, but if someone moved over to the left bank, wouldn't they be turning to port?

[Stroudwater1]

13 hours ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

but do they steam on through?

 

that’d be a good call over taking President in a tunnel. 
10 points for that. 

We’ve passed President and Kildare going the other way in Wast Hill tunnel. It was quite dramatic as the boats are pretty silent and there was a visible flame. The smell afterwards was lovely- just as it is if you sidle up to a steam traction engine at a steam rally. 
I had no idea there were a pair I was passing which is also a strange experience. 

 

Fortunately they managed to stay in good control through the passage. 
 

There can be reasons to pass in a tunnel. I’ve known a boat ahead have a snapped cable, and some folk do go unbelievably slow through tunnels. It’s quite hard keeping a distance especially when tge slow boat slows to a standstill when passing another boat. 

[LadyG]

12 hours ago, Wanderer Vagabond said:

There might be 'little risk' but two boats going in the same direction in a tunnel is simply going to be a PITA since they will both be trying to draw the same water, so slowing both of them down. I would wave another boat past before entering a tunnel, or wave them past after we've left the tunnel, but whilst in the tunnel, as long as I'm maintaining 3mph they can fecking wait. It annoys me when in a tunnel if another boat decides to try to get as close to my stern as they can, since they are just slowing both of us down. They might complain that I'm 'Not going fast enough' but whose fault is that? The boat that is 'drawing' my water, that is who, so if they are dumb enough to do that, they can wait. In most tunnels (and many canals) I maintain position in the centre of the channel (deepest point), moving over only for oncoming boats. If the boat coming up behind me on a canal is clearly going faster than I am, as happened to me yesterday on the Coventry canal when an unladen heritage boat, high at the bows, so obviously not drawing as much water as I was, I'm more than happy to move over (although with something of a communication failure, the helm said to me as he passed,"I wouldn't moor there mate, it's a bit shallow"). In a tunnel however, if they want to deliberately slow me down by drawing my water, then we can both wait.

 

I had a similar issue a few years back going across the Pontcysyllte Aqueduct, the bl**dy boat behind caught right up with my stern so I couldn't 'go' because they were drawing all my water, so we both went across at a snail's pace. I tried to explain to him that if he stayed back a couple of boat lengths, we'd both get across quicker, but he didn't seem to 'get it'.

I think some mime would have got the message through, or at least provided a talking point at the pub if the message conveyed that you were a dancing monkey and as mad as a hatter.

I have been slowed down in a tunnel by a boater coming too close, i had a light on the stern, so i knew he could see me, plus he saw me enter the tunnel. I was already going a bit sleady as i knew there was a bend ahead. 

 

Edited June 10, 2024 by LadyG