New year resolution

[Theo]

I do feel sheepish

 

At the moment there is a problem with Theodora's glow plug circuitry. This means that she is a pig to start but she has not let me down yet. This also means that I don't expect her to start easily. Today I nearly flattened the start battery by trying and trying to make her go. I even hot wired the glow plugs. All was all right when No. 2 son found that the stop button was still pulled out!

 

The good thing that came out of it was that I now know that she will start beautifully one I sort out the glow pug problem.

 

On all the other boats that I have used there are three positions on the ignition switch. 1) Charging circuitry on, 2) Glow plugs on 3) Starter motor on. Theodora only has functions 1 and 3. I need to do a bit of circuit tracing. There is a separate switch that I have not yet identified which could be a glow plug switch but it does not seem to have any effect.

 

Happy New Year Everyone

 

Nick

[John Orentas]

Nick.

 

This matter was discussed some time ago, there is a lot to be said for wiring the heater plugs to a separate push button, you will then be able to leave the heaters activated whilst at the same time cranking the engine, many people find the engine starts very much more easily in this way. You can even leave them on for a few seconds after the engine starts.

[magnetman]

Nick.

 

This matter was discussed some time ago, there is a lot to be said for wiring the heater plugs to a separate push button, you will then be able to leave the heaters activated whilst at the same time cranking the engine, many people find the engine starts very much more easily in this way. You can even leave them on for a few seconds after the engine starts.

Could use a small timer switch wired to a relay for the heater plugs, specially if they take a while to get going and it means you don't forget to turn it off afterwards and keep your hands free for things like putting the tiller bar on.

[John Orentas]

Could use a small timer switch wired to a relay for the heater plugs, specially if they take a while to get going and it means you don't forget to turn it off afterwards and keep your hands free for things like putting the tiller bar on.

 

 

I have set off without a tiller more than once, you feel a bit silly if there is anyone watching. Not the sort of occasion were you can adopt a casual pose and pretend you did it on purpose.

[Theo]

I know that I will have to discover this by experientation , but how long would you expect to leave the glow plugs befroe a completely cold start?

 

N

[Keeping Up]

I'll bet that everyone who can do this, has done it. More than once, too; I know I have (on my previous boat; it can't happen on this one). I'll also bet that your New Years Resolution won't last until the end of the year.

 

As for setting out without a tiller - well I probably don't do that more than, say twice a week

 

Allan

[magnetman]

I know that I will have to discover this by experientation , but how long would you expect to leave the glow plugs befroe a completely cold start?

 

N

I imagine that depends on the engine and referring to user manual might be the thing.

The SABB 2G engine I have fitted a timer to requires 40 seconds in cold weather before starting which is easily enough time to put the tiller bar on and the pin too.

Edited December 27, 2006 by magnetman

[NB Alnwick]

We had a job starting the engine on Boxing Day - cranked it over about half a dozen times before remembering that we had turned the diesel tap off before going home for Christmas . . .

[magnetman]

We had a job starting the engine on Boxing Day - cranked it over about half a dozen times before remembering that we had turned the diesel tap off before going home for Christmas . . .

petrol start is one of the ways to get big engines going in cold weather, or heater plugs with precombustion chambers or heater plugs mounted on air intakes to warm the incoming air.

[Keeping Up]

I know that I will have to discover this by experientation , but how long would you expect to leave the glow plugs befroe a completely cold start?

On my dashboard, next to the switch position, it says "12 Seconds Maximum". That's on a Perkins MC42.

 

Allan

[Theo]

How very gratifying! I confess to idiocy and goet a whole lot of good advice in return!

 

Thanks everyone!

 

Nick

 

On my dashboard, next to the switch position, it says "12 Seconds Maximum". That's on a Perkins MC42.

 

Allan

 

 

Ah! It might depend on the engine, then. Mine is a BMC 1.5. Any advice specific to that one!

 

N

[Alan Saunders]

I do feel sheepish

 

At the moment there is a problem with Theodora's glow plug circuitry. This means that she is a pig to start but she has not let me down yet. This also means that I don't expect her to start easily. Today I nearly flattened the start battery by trying and trying to make her go. I even hot wired the glow plugs. All was all right when No. 2 son found that the stop button was still pulled out!

 

The good thing that came out of it was that I now know that she will start beautifully one I sort out the glow pug problem.

 

On all the other boats that I have used there are three positions on the ignition switch. 1) Charging circuitry on, 2) Glow plugs on 3) Starter motor on. Theodora only has functions 1 and 3. I need to do a bit of circuit tracing. There is a separate switch that I have not yet identified which could be a glow plug switch but it does not seem to have any effect.

 

Happy New Year Everyone

 

Nick

No need to feel sheepish - there are two types of people - those who have done this and thosenwho are going to do so!

 

Fit a spring to the stop lever. You may have to hold the stop button out for ten seconds every time you stop the engine but at least it might remove one cause of failure to start. All the diesels I use have a spring return except our Albion Riever and several times a year I get called to the Riever because it will not start - guess why?

 

Series II/III Diesel Land Rovers (maybe others) have a position '2' as above but it is not detented. You turn the key beyond position '1' against spring pressure and note the heater lamp glowing dimly. Holding this position the lamp brightens as the heaters warm up - if there is an ammeter it shows 10-20 amp discharge.

 

A timer is only useful if it is coupled to engine temperature.

 

I agree:

 

To determine the appropriate pre-heat time you need to know which heater plugs you have and what the engine manufacturer recommens. e.g. the LR plugs draw tens of amps but only, theoretically, require ten seconds at 0C. My Vetus M3.10 (Mitsubishi) can have two types of heater plugs, one requires 30 seconds the other 20 seconds at 0C. I find 15 seconds sufficient, others start with virtually no preheat at all.

 

Modern diesels calculate the preheat time, keep the heaters on during cranking and maintain them for a calculated period after starting. My Vetus keeps the heaters energised during cranking via auxiliary contacts on the start button. The LR heaters draw so much current that, were they energised during cranking, the engine might not turn over fast enough to start. They are also 'open element' plugs which are easily burnt out. When one goes open-circuit there is no pre-heat as they are 2V plugs connected in series with a dropper resistor.

 

If yould would like more help with your starting problems the experts on here will need to know your engine type/model and heater-plug type and voltage.

 

Alan Saunders

[DHutch]

I do feel sheepish...

 

...the stop button was still pulled out!

Ah, its happens!

 

Obvously we dont have a stop button as such, but there are many other simular mistakes that can be made.

- As good one is always lighting the boiler without taking the chinamans hat of the top of the funnel in a morning.

- Its really quite amasing how much smoke a bit of newspaper and parafin can make in the 2minutes it takes to run up and take it off!

 

Also setting off with the by-pass valve left open from warming up is always good for shits and giggle. You dont notice at all, untill the first time you want to stop! And also, linked to that, you can forget to turn on the whiste isolator valve, which leaves you rather helpless interms of attracting the attention of other crew members or on coming boats!

 

 

Daniel

[John Orentas]

Ah! It might depend on the engine, then. Mine is a BMC 1.5. Any advice specific to that one!

 

 

Optimum heating times have as much to do with the air temperature and the general condition of your engine as the engine type. Trial and error is probably the only way, if there is specific maximum allowed time you should obviously take notice. If for example the instruction is max 12 seconds, just give it a rest for 30 sec before trying again.

[alan_fincher]

Ah! It might depend on the engine, then. Mine is a BMC 1.5. Any advice specific to that one!

 

N

I can't remember what the manual says, (the same one covers 1.5 and 1.8 BMC engines), and ours is on the boat at the moment.

 

I'm fairly certain it suggests quite a long pre-heat - 20 seconds, I think it may be.

 

I'll try and remember to look it up, when I'm on the boat.

 

Alan

[Theo]

I can't remember what the manual says, (the same one covers 1.5 and 1.8 BMC engines), and ours is on the boat at the moment.

 

I'm fairly certain it suggests quite a long pre-heat - 20 seconds, I think it may be.

 

I'll try and remember to look it up, when I'm on the boat.

 

Alan

 

Oh, yes. SWMBO read all of the above and reminded me that I bought and engine manual from EBay (£10). It says 15s -30s. So now I know.

 

Many thanks all.

 

Nick

[Supermalc]

Done the very same recently with a tractor.......several times in fact. It's because we now have diesel engined vehicles that stop when you turn the key off.

 

After you have figured out the heater switches, requirements. To start the engine. Heat for 10 to 15 seconds, then try cranking with the heaters still ON. If not firing after a few revolutions, stop, and restart the procedure.

 

Most diesel engines that you hear cranking for a while before firing is because the heaters have not been on long enough.

 

Towards the end of the year, I've helped 2 people with boats new to them, both with 1500 BMC diesels, that couldn't get them to start. One because it required several heats before cranking, and the other because he was letting go the separate heater button before starting. He had bought new batteries, and was even considering a new starter motor.

 

This applies to all diesels with heater plugs, or heaters. Often they will start with one heat, as they are first used in warm weather. Then the first cold day, they fail to start. I had a Renault Extra van with a worn out engine. I did not buy a worn out diesel if I had to rely on it starting in really cold weather. As long as I gave it 4 heats i.e. turn the ignition on 4 times until the light went out before trying to start it, I continued to use it for 6 years, without the aid of easy start. However, occasionally, by the time you had heated it enough, probably 8 or 10 times, the battery was so low, it would not turn over fast enough to fire. Using easy start also wasn't an option, as the starter was a bit 'tired' as well, and would not turn the engine over the high compression caused.

 

So just to recap. Heat the engine and try to start keeping the heaters on. If it fails to fire after half a dozen turns, stop and restart the procedure. If it still doesn't start you'll have to get a tow (for any thick person reading this, that last sentence is a joke

[Carrie]

I have set off without a tiller more than once, you feel a bit silly if there is anyone watching. Not the sort of occasion were you can adopt a casual pose and pretend you did it on purpose.

 

Ooh - so glad it isn't just me! I try to be methodical and remember everything but I sometimes forget the tiller, the chimney, my coat, the mallet, my cup of tea, the map or the centre rope back to the stern

[David Schweizer]

Nick.

 

This matter was discussed some time ago, there is a lot to be said for wiring the heater plugs to a separate push button, you will then be able to leave the heaters activated whilst at the same time cranking the engine, many people find the engine starts very much more easily in this way. You can even leave them on for a few seconds after the engine starts.

I remember this being said the last time this matter was discussed, and didn't bother to respond but as it has come up a second time I will. My "ignition" switch has four positions Off, On, Heat, Heat and Start. (I have checked these with a multi meter so I know they are correct). As far as I know it is a standard Lucas switch although it is 25 years old, so maybe modern ones are different.

 

As far as Pre-heat times from cold on my BMC 1.5 are concerned, I have found this varies from not being required in the summer, to over a minute in very cold weather, although the manual states between 15 and 30 seconds in cold weather. It also states that the throttle lever shoud be fully advanced when starting in cold weather.

Edited December 27, 2006 by David Schweizer

[Tony Brooks]

I can't remember what the manual says, (the same one covers 1.5 and 1.8 BMC engines), and ours is on the boat at the moment.

 

I'm fairly certain it suggests quite a long pre-heat - 20 seconds, I think it may be.

 

I'll try and remember to look it up, when I'm on the boat.

 

Alan

 

 

Unless soemone has fitted a 1.8 head to a 1.5 block they use totally different heater plugs. A 1.8 uses modern "fast heat" plugs drawing about 75 amps dropping to about 50 and 15 to 20 seconds is prrobably about right for these.

 

A 1.5 uses the long thin "needle" type plug and that draws about a steady 25 amps so thus takes longer to heat up. I think 30 seconds was the typical time on these. However (as as been mentions on a number of previouse threads) the plugs on a 1.5 do carbon up so it is a good idea to remove them every couple of years or so and drill out the hole. 7/64 I think. Coppergreas the plug before refitting it so the copper forms a weak plane so they come out more easily in the future. If the plugs have been left in for years there is a good chance that the tips will snap off. If you are a gambling man they can be drilled out without removing the head using a well greased drill to catch the swarf, but I would take the injectors out and spin the engine for a few seconds before trying to start it.

 

 

The subject made me laugh, pie in the sky think.

 

Tony Brooks

[NB Alnwick]

petrol start is one of the ways to get big engines going in cold weather

 

Edited because I forgot to write anything - too much Christmas cheer!

 

Love all this talk about heating plugs etc. - all very nice on a modern BMC diesel.

 

We only have one chance to get it right and then its petrol start with a shot of 'petroil 20:1' in each auxillary combustion chamber, screw in the Magneto, close the taps and hand crank all twelve and a half Litres of it - when it has fired a few times its down with the big lever and away it goes on diesel - hopefully in the right direction. It can be all a bit hit and miss which is why we always try to get it to go on diesel first . . .

Edited December 28, 2006 by NB Alnwick

[wrigglefingers]

Ooh - so glad it isn't just me! I try to be methodical and remember everything but I sometimes forget the tiller, the chimney, my coat, the mallet, my cup of tea, the map or the centre rope back to the stern

 

How about forgetting that you need to press the solenoid button to stop the engine? I missed it off the boat manual I gave to friends in the summer. Cue agonised 'phonecall explaining that they couldn't turn off the engine - should they summon an engineer?

 

I've done all of the above, but the best was leaving the tiller off when backing out, and not realising until Ellen pointed out that the boat was a pig to steer owing to it's utter lack thereof. We were heading full engine astern towards a new, very expensive, widebeam. Didn't realise I could rev the engine so hard in forward....... Nor, that I could execute a 57 point turn in reverse in a narrowboat after totally cocking it up and wedging myself between two rows of boats. (See TeeEll's photos of Bradford Marina to see how tight it is here!)

 

Jill

[alan_fincher]

Unless someone has fitted a 1.8 head to a 1.5 block they use totally different heater plugs. A 1.8 uses modern "fast heat" plugs drawing about 75 amps dropping to about 50 and 15 to 20 seconds is probably about right for these.

 

A 1.5 uses the long thin "needle" type plug and that draws about a steady 25 amps so thus takes longer to heat up. I think 30 seconds was the typical time on these.

 

Oops, yes.

 

Sorry Tony - As I was typing my post on this, I did have in the back of my mind from your course that the heater types were different on the 1.5 and 1.8 BMCs.

 

Having said that, I still that the original BMC manual I have is is generic for the two models. But if, as Nick has said, it says "15 to 30 seconds" I guess both possibilities are kind of covered.

 

It sounds like practical experience is more use than the manual here, as I don't think BMC documentation implies longer needed for the 1.5 than the 1.8, (I'll check when next have access to the book, in case I'm wrong....)

 

I usually give my 1.8 somewhere in the 15 to 20 second range if it's a cold damp day, and it's not been run for a month or two. But, as I said in another post, it managed to start quite well in similar conditions with the throttle closed, and one injector pipe unbled, after some minor dismantling, (probably nearly as quickly as it does normally, after the heaters have been run .....)

[Theo]

Oops, yes.

 

Sorry Tony - As I was typing my post on this, I did have in the back of my mind from your course that the heater types were different on the 1.5 and 1.8 BMCs.

 

Having said that, I still that the original BMC manual I have is is generic for the two models. But if, as Nick has said, it says "15 to 30 seconds" I guess both possibilities are kind of covered.

 

It sounds like practical experience is more use than the manual here, as I don't think BMC documentation implies longer needed for the 1.5 than the 1.8, (I'll check when next have access to the book, in case I'm wrong....)

 

I usually give my 1.8 somewhere in the 15 to 20 second range if it's a cold damp day, and it's not been run for a month or two. But, as I said in another post, it managed to start quite well in similar conditions with the throttle closed, and one injector pipe unbled, after some minor dismantling, (probably nearly as quickly as it does normally, after the heaters have been run .....)

 

I don't think that I could manage not to visit Theodora for a whole month. I go withdrawal symptoms (if you pardon the expression!) after ten days!

 

Nick

 

I don't think that I could manage not to visit Theodora for a whole month. I go withdrawal symptoms (if you pardon the expression!) after ten days!

 

Nick

 

I got ...

 

(If you'll...

 

(Must look at posts before clicking reply!)

[alan_fincher]

I don't think that I could manage not to visit Theodora for a whole month. I go withdrawal symptoms (if you pardon the expression!) after ten days!

 

Nick

Yes, I tend to agree, Nick!.... I miss the boat, if I can't get a regular 'fix'....

 

The record shows that a year ago, we were managing to get the boat out for short day trips quite regularly, (often multiple times a month, even mid-winter, despite a lot of stoppages at locks in our immediate area).

 

Sadly circumstances seem to have worked against us this winter, and she hasn't moved much in the last 3 months.

 

But we have been up doing running repairs, and have at least enjoyed a nice warm stove, (once I'd replaced the door seals!), and the occasional meal cooked aboard.

 

With a broken throttle linkage now repaired, a rather dodgy looking rubber connector to the header tank replaced, and the stern gear repacked, I'm hoping it will not be too long before she is on the move again.

 

Now I just need to finish off repairs to front door, which has proved to be less weather-tight than it should have been.......