Cell tec panels as insulation? Please advise?

[Sas]

Sorry... me again .

 

I've arranged to view a boat and was advised that there is no spray foam insulation ( that was my query), but the boat is insulated using cell tec panels.

 

Can someone please advise on this particular jiggery pokery?

 

Thanks!

[Grace and Favour]

The only Celtek I've come across is a fabric insulation used within clothing...(and I wouldn't be assured that it's perfect for a steel boat)

 

Now, there are quite effective insulation sheets (Celotex) that are a similar product to Kingspan. These can be a reasonable alternative to sprayfoam insulation providing they were fitted carefully and properly.

 

The quality of fitting (including foam-filled little nooks and awkward corners), proper adhesion to steelwork (so condensation cannot form on the inner cabin surfaces) and a decent thickness of panel can result in good insulation.

 

I don't know of a particular boat-builder that uses such panels, so I would guess that the job was a retro-fit(?)

 

If you are serious about purchasing the boat, look for tell-tale signs of mould/rust on the lower sections of wood panels/frames, and mention the insulation system to your (pre-purchase) surveyor , asking him to check it wherever possible

[Sas]

Thanks G&F, Doesn't sound too promising does it?

[Grace and Favour]

Thanks G&F, Doesn't sound too promising does it?

If it's done well it's fine...... But it's as well as you know what to look out for!

[Tony Brooks]

Celotex is probably better than expanded polystyrene for the same thickness and care of fitting.

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

insulation and a vapor barrier is what you need if Celotex is done well then much better than polystyrene. somebody has done a good job but just how good you will have to satisfy yourself.

[Sas]

Thanks Tony and BB (w)

 

I realise it's down to me ( and surveyor) to determine what state it is in, but in terms of efficacy as an insulator...?? This material versus spray foam??

 

Or to put it another way.... if you were having a boat built which of these materials would you choose, and why?

[Grace and Favour]

Thanks Tony and BB (w)

 

I realise it's down to me ( and surveyor) to determine what state it is in, but in terms of efficacy as an insulator...?? This material versus spray foam??

 

Or to put it another way.... if you were having a boat built which of these materials would you choose, and why?

Ah! - If I was ordering a new boat it would be spray-foamed, (because it should provide an effective insulation and vapour barrier (and adheres to the steel))

Celotex would most probably be used where a retrospectivly fitted insulation was required (i.e. - after a boat had been previously fitted out)

Spray-foam application should be the most effective of the two**

 

**The caveat is, of course, that my comments are subject to both methods being carried out as well as possible.

[Sas]

Really helpful - thanks G&F

 

That's Spray foam - 1 , Other stuff - 0

[blackrose]

Thanks Tony and BB (w)

 

I realise it's down to me ( and surveyor) to determine what state it is in, but in terms of efficacy as an insulator...?? This material versus spray foam??

 

Or to put it another way.... if you were having a boat built which of these materials would you choose, and why?

 

They're both the same material - expanded polyurethane. The difference is that one is applied by spraying onto the steel where it expands, while the other comes as pre-expanded rigid board. There are pros and cons to both. People here have warned about the potential pitfalls of poorly applied Cellotex, but what about poorly applied sprayfoam? It's just as bad.

 

The advantage of sprayfoam (if properly applied) is that it will stick to the steel over it's entire surface area. That's a potential disadvantage if the Cellotex or Kingspan isn't properly stuck on and/or the joints between the boards aren't sealed with hand held cans of foam or aluminium tape. Conversely, the advantage of Cellotex or Kingspan is that it comes in a uniform thickness - and that is a potential disadvantage of sprayfoam - many boats have sprayfoam that is thin in places because it's not easy to apply evenly

 

Find out what the Cellotex was stuck on with - a PU adhesive/sealant like Sikaflex or Marineflex is best. Check what thickness Cellotex board was used (at least 1"), and make sure the joints between the boards were sealed. If all that's been done it's fine.

Edited February 24, 2014 by blackrose

[Sas]

Thanks Black rose, but surely the board option creates greater potential for 'failure' in terms of insulation? OK the spray maybe unevenly applied leading to inconsistency, but at least it's applied directly onto the steel, whilst there may be the same inconsistency with the application of the adhesive PLUS potential gaps in the boards??

 

Also, is this the type of info would include on a spec of a boat he/she was building?

[blackrose]

Thanks Black rose, but surely the board option creates greater potential for 'failure' in terms of insulation? OK the spray maybe unevenly applied leading to inconsistency, but at least it's applied directly onto the steel, whilst there may be the same inconsistency with the application of the adhesive PLUS potential gaps in the boards??

 

Also, is this the type of info would include on a spec of a boat he/she was building?

 

Well, it just depends who did the job. If it was done properly there is no potential for failure with PU board.

 

If the job was fitted out by a professional then they should have kept records, and it it was fitted by a competent DIYer then they should know what they did. But if you're buying it from a third party then perhaps nobody will know. The trouble is that you're trying to find out about something which is very difficult to see because it's hidden behind the lining. As others have said - look for signs of condensation which have left marks on the wooden lining - where the roof meets the cabin sides, under gunwales, etc. Although having said that, condensation marks around window frames is fairly normal.

[Sas]

Thanks Black rose..... I'll just have to have a good snoop.

 

Miss Marple

[blackrose]

Thanks Black rose..... I'll just have to have a good snoop.

 

Miss Marple

 

The owner or vendor should be able to remove an electrical socket or something to allow you to at least see the board thickness.

 

Make sure there's no power to the socket!

 

Edit: Mushroom vents are often a good place to see the insulation too.

Edited February 24, 2014 by blackrose

[Sas]

The owner or vendor should be able to remove an electrical socket or something to allow you to at least see the board thickness.

 

Make sure there's no power to the socket!

Now THAT'S a damn good idea....thanks!

[nb Innisfree]

For me sheet polyurethane sheet properly applied is far superior to sprayfoam. The bloke fitting out his nb next to us used Kingspan, we had ours sprayfoamed. He stuck it on with polyurethane adhesive and filled any gaps with aerosol foam. Finished 6mm ply on top the result was very impressive, thumping it was like hitting a brick wall, really solid, I was quite jealous!

[ditchcrawler]

Thanks Black rose, but surely the board option creates greater potential for 'failure' in terms of insulation? OK the spray maybe unevenly applied leading to inconsistency, but at least it's applied directly onto the steel, whilst there may be the same inconsistency with the application of the adhesive PLUS potential gaps in the boards??

 

Also, is this the type of info would include on a spec of a boat he/she was building?

I have seen sprayfoam applied as thick as a coat of blacking, it just turner the steel yellow. 2" of celotex would have been much better

[risico]

I'm weighing up sprayfoam vs kingspan / celotex for a new installation and am favouring the latter for a couple of reasons not mentioned already. Firstly, as I understand it polyurethane foam is not typically 'closed cell' meaning moisture can pass through if it isn't above a certain thickness - one sprayfoam guy I spoke to said 50mm is safe which is quite a lot. This being the case certain areas may be penetrable over time. Kingspan has the silver sheeting on it that I believe is a vapour barrier. Secondly, what a mess!? If you want to weld something substantial on the outside of the steel you'll have to claw the foam off and re-apply. Boards seem to be a slightly tidier and more reversible option, though no doubt also tricky to remove after if stuck with PU adhesive.

 

Has anyone tries a Kingspan product called Thermaroof with a bituminous layer on one side? Perhaps this could achieve a good bond over all the steel it covers. Also, I considered a 5mm-10mm air gap between sheets and steel so moisture could run down into the hull, any ideas on this?

[Grace and Favour]

I'm weighing up sprayfoam vs kingspan / celotex for a new installation and am favouring the latter for a couple of reasons not mentioned already. Firstly, as I understand it polyurethane foam is not typically 'closed cell' meaning moisture can pass through if it isn't above a certain thickness - one sprayfoam guy I spoke to said 50mm is safe which is quite a lot. This being the case certain areas may be penetrable over time. Kingspan has the silver sheeting on it that I believe is a vapour barrier. Secondly, what a mess!? If you want to weld something substantial on the outside of the steel you'll have to claw the foam off and re-apply. Boards seem to be a slightly tidier and more reversible option, though no doubt also tricky to remove after if stuck with PU adhesive.

 

Has anyone tries a Kingspan product called Thermaroof with a bituminous layer on one side? Perhaps this could achieve a good bond over all the steel it covers. Also, I considered a 5mm-10mm air gap between sheets and steel so moisture could run down into the hull, any ideas on this?

Erm - - the one thing you do not want is condensation running down the inside of your shell.

 

All it will do is create rust, (and puddles in your bilge that you will not be able to identify whether it's condensation, or another problem/leak)

 

The only places you want water in your boat are in the water system, goldfish bowl, or with your whisky

[bastion]

Sorry... me again .

 

I've arranged to view a boat and was advised that there is no spray foam insulation ( that was my query), but the boat is insulated using cell tec panels.

 

Can someone please advise on this particular jiggery pokery?

 

Thanks!

Who made or fitted the boat? I believe that thinsulate was used by some boatbuliders was bonded o the hull as insulation.

[Sas]

Who made or fitted the boat? I believe that thinsulate was used by some boatbuliders was bonded o the hull as insulation.

Hi

 

Fitted by Triton ???

 

I think.....thinsulate? Thought that was used in outdoor clothing?!

[nb Innisfree]

Kingspan/Celote, like sprayfoam, is closed cell and so acts as a vapour barrier as well as insulation. It does need sticking to the hull properly to exclude any air if it is to equal sprayfoam. Sometimes house building techniques are inaccurately applied to boatbuilding, such as vapour barriers, the foil on poly sheeting is there to reflect some heat.

[bastion]

Hi

 

Fitted by Triton ???

 

I think.....thinsulate? Thought that was used in outdoor clothing?!

Not the one I was thinking about. Apparently Thinsulate is very effective for a minimal thickness

Not the one I was thinking about. Apparently Thinsulate is very effective for a minimal thickness

https://marineindustrial.co.uk/index.php/thermal-acoustic-insulation/3m-thinsulate.html

[Sas]

Thanks Bastion!

[Polishicebreaker]

Hi, a tip from me. If your buying a boat, check everything. Don't be afraid of asking to see every part of bilge and hull you can get at and if you can't get at it then there's usually another way. Can any wall cladding be removed to check behind? Same with floor and bilges. My feeling is that if there's no inspection hatched to critical areas, you can make your own.

Just turn up there with a jigsaw and screw gun