Water in cylinders BMC 1.5 ... and more

[HappyBunny]

Some of you have followed my engine shenanigans on here, and I have had some valuable help before and am hoping for some more advice .... My constantly entertaining BMC 1.5 started to produce white smoke ... unspent fuel was the general consensus, due to timing being out

and she was proving tricky to start, and then firing on three and misfiring a bit till warm ......

she always used a bit of water, but started to want more, then started producing the odd air bubble in the header tank but was not boiling ... thought she had an air lock after putting antifreeze in or a leak in the system somewhere, she is a bit prone to air locks on the calorifier system .... only had a couple of miles to do to get through stoppage and avoid being trapped in Hemel Hempstead, a fate worse than being peeled with a rusty potato peeler ... so I pressed on a bit and as I pulled up she did boil

next day she wouldn't start, engine wouldn't turn over.... flat battery I thought ... but no ....

bit of furtleing around and noticed a dribble of water coming from the air intake ....

So the head has come off AGAIN and revealed two pots full of water, hence why she would not start.... so I think head gasket gone or head cracked

Head came off, went off to be pressure tested, not cracked .... and to be honest the head gasket seemed intact with no obvious sign of having blown enough to allow such quantities of water into the cylinders.

at this point there was no evidence of water in the bottom end, the oil was clear

so new head gasket, put her back together, fired her up yesterday and all was well ... for a few minutes,.... then a lot of steam from the engine breather, steam from the oil filler cap and now the oil has water in too ....

I am completely at a loss now, and wondering how water is getting into the top end, getting into my cylinders, and now getting into my bottom end too .... head not cracked, head gasket good

wondering if there are water seals in the block that have failed? not sure if BMCs are wet lined or dry lined? .... surely the block can't be cracked?

can anyone throw any light on what might be happening? ....

bunny

[Phil Ambrose]

Oh dear, don't have an answer apart from yes blocks can crack, sorry about your troubles.

Phil

[Tony Brooks]

Oh dear, don't have an answer apart from yes blocks can crack, sorry about your troubles.

Phil

 

Agreed, we had more than one cracked cylinder - beast to find but we found them by dropping a light bulb down the bore. Today I would get a machinists to use a dye penetration tester.

 

Could also be an internal crack in the exhaust manifold. I have had them rusted through.

 

I hope that you have had a straight edge across the block and head faces to check for dips. Try pushing a thin feeler between the straight edge and face. I have confirmed in a manual that the 1.5 has NO liner protrusion.

[RLWP]

Do remember that once upon a time, this engine swallowed a bolt which managed to get into the cylinder

 

Which cylinders were full of water?

 

Richard

[HappyBunny]

Thanks people ... I did put a straight edge over the block and seemed ok ... the head was skimmed ... but didn't try a feeler gauge ... will check the exhaust manifold

 

Richard it was the middle two pots that were full of water, but I feel that the problem lies in the second pot from the back ... the screw went into the two rear pots ... my thoughts are that the cylinder lining has gone ... but I am not sure if they are dry lined or wet lined?

 

today I am gathering thoughts and suggestions ... thanks ... tomorrow I may be looking for a tow up to Calcutt as I think this is beyond being done bankside in middle of nowhere :-)

[RLWP]

They are not lined at all. The cylinder is bored directly into the block

 

Richard

 

MORE: Suggestions - gather up your pennies, see what you have and either get a short or complete engine from Calcutt.

Edited February 17, 2014 by RLWP

[HappyBunny]

They are not lined at all. The cylinder is bored directly into the block

 

Richard

 

MORE: Suggestions - gather up your pennies, see what you have and either get a short or complete engine from Calcutt.

 

That is kind of where I have got to Richard, .... but the pots look as if they have a lining ?

 

What is the difference between short and complete? gear box?

[MtB]

I'm inclined to agree with Richard. A short engine from Calcutt or better, ask them to diagnose it. Is that why you are hoping for a tow there?

 

I rather doubt Tony's suggestion of a cracked exhaust manifold is main problem because while this could explain water in pots 2 and 3 after the engine being at rest, I don't think it explains the steam from the engine breather. Something more catastrophic has happened which seemed to get worse when the head was removed and replaced.

 

I'm also wondering if during the pressing on to Hemel Hemstead the engine was actually WAY overheating and boiling only showed up when you stopped.

 

What made you think there was a problem and you should have stopped really, when you pressed on? Do you have a temperature gauge that was reading a bit high? The temp gauge sender can do this if extremely hot but not actually immersed in water on old BMC engines IIRC.

 

MtB

[RLWP]

Short is the block and contents, long includes the head

 

I'm not sure what Calcutt offer - I'll have a look

 

If you can afford it, go for the complete engine. You need this engine, your boat is your home and your business. You may find what's wrong with it eventually, and it might be simple or complicated. You may get the smoke problem sorted eventually, and oil leaks eventually...

 

You get the picture

 

Richard

[MtB]

 

That is kind of where I have got to Richard, .... but the pots look as if they have a lining ?

 

What is the difference between short and complete? gear box?

 

Answering for Richard as I'm here!

 

A 'short' engine is the lower half, i.e. block crank and pistons but no head. A complete engine includes the head, where 50% of the complexity lies. So a re-built short engine is usually about half the price of a re-built full engine.

 

But before choosing, a definitive diagnosis is needed. Be grim to buy a short engine then find it was the head after all. How good are the peeps who declared the head 'good'? Might be worth borrowing another head to try before replacing the bottom end of the engine.

 

MtB

[RLWP]

 

What made you think there was a problem and you should have stopped really, when you pressed on? Do you have a temperature gauge that was reading a bit high? The temp gauge sender can do this if extremely hot but not actually immersed in water on old BMC engines IIRC.

 

MtB

 

Herbidacious has a very exciting temperature indication system. When it boils, water surges up into the header hopper in the cabin and fills it with steam

 

Richard

[MtB]

P.S. Oh Richard IS here!

 

Herbidacious has a very exciting temperature indication system. When it boils, water surges up into the header hopper in the cabin and fills it with steam

 

Richard

 

I want one like that!

 

MtB

[RLWP]

http://www.calcuttboats.com/engines.html

 

If you can afford it, go for the long engine

 

Richard

[Albion]

I'm having to dig deep back into my memory of my time in my garage business but I believe that we did once have a head where a crack didn't show up under crack testing and was only apparent when hot (i.e. the crack had expanded). I don't recall ever having a cracked block on that type of engine (i.e. cast block, no liners).

As you have now discovered, dense white smoke is also a good indicator of burning anti-freeze solution. This is why diagnosis of smoke colours is so difficult even for someone with experience and a good eye.

Roger

Edited February 17, 2014 by Albion

[RLWP]

As you have now discovered, dense white smoke is also a good indicator of burning anti-freeze solution.

Roger

 

A very common source of engine bay fires in motor cars, more so than fuel leaks apparently

 

Richard

[MtB]

Or if you can't, consider this:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-5-bmc-marine-diesel-engine-/331131092449?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_BoatEquipment_Accessories_SM&hash=item4d18f37de1

 

One helluvalot of spare parts including a cylinder head.

 

When the head came off and you saw water in the cylinders, do you remember whether the pistons where in the cylinders with the water?? Near the top or near the bottom?

 

MtB

 

 

 

(edit to clarify the question.)

 

A very common source of engine bay fires in motor cars, more so than fuel leaks apparently

 

Richard

 

Really? I had no idea antifreeze is flammable. The pink stuff presumably, not the blue?

 

Even when diluted with water?

 

MtB

Edited February 17, 2014 by Mike the Boilerman

[RLWP]

 

Really? I had no idea antifreeze is flammable. The pink stuff presumably, not the blue?

 

Even when diluted with water?

 

MtB

 

Yes.

 

Richard

[Bee]

What a drag, before you order a new long / short engine do the whole straight edge / feeler gauge thing again, across the block and head as well as lengthways, try a bit of paraffin and talc on the cyl. walls and other places just to try and find cracks, I had this with a fiesta engine, the block was `low` between 2 and 3 cyl, it is rare but can happen, the head nuts are hard to get at on those aren`t they?, make sure it is tightened down ok. good luck

[MtB]

 

Yes.

 

Richard

Did you mean "yes, yes, yes, and yes", really?

 

MtB

I'm still inclined to suspect the cylinder head. You say the head is has been tested and isn't cracked, but earlier on you used the term 'pressure tested'. Do you know exactly what was done to test it, and at what temperatures?

 

MtB

[luctor et emergo]

 

Herbidacious has a very exciting temperature indication system. When it boils, water surges up into the header hopper in the cabin and fills it with steam

 

Richard

 

 

wow, an onboard sauna.

[RLWP]

What a drag, before you order a new long / short engine do the whole straight edge / feeler gauge thing again, across the block and head as well as lengthways, try a bit of paraffin and talc on the cyl. walls and other places just to try and find cracks, I had this with a fiesta engine, the block was `low` between 2 and 3 cyl, it is rare but can happen, the head nuts are hard to get at on those aren`t they?, make sure it is tightened down ok. good luck

 

 

Did you mean "yes, yes, yes, and yes", really?

 

MtB

I'm still inclined to suspect the cylinder head. You say the head is has been tested and isn't cracked, but earlier on you used the term 'pressure tested'. Do you know exactly what was done to test it, and at what temperatures?

 

MtB

 

When do you draw the line though? This head has been off three times already and checked over twice to my knowledge. I would find it a fascinating investigation to follow, especially if the block is cracked. That's fine for me, but not for a paying client, or for someone pissed off with an unreliable engine who wants to move their home

 

Richard

[alan_fincher]

Beware, and sorry if I'm stating the bleeding obvious.

 

Calcutt listings are, I believe, on the basis that you trade on an engine suitable for rebuilding.

 

It sounds to me that it is possible they might declare yours as not, so, unfortunately you may need to budget more than any quoted prices might imply.

[MtB]

 

 

 

When do you draw the line though? This head has been off three times already and checked over twice to my knowledge. I would find it a fascinating investigation to follow, especially if the block is cracked. That's fine for me, but not for a paying client, or for someone pissed off with an unreliable engine who wants to move their home

 

Richard

 

I agree, it's a hard one to call. I was unaware it had been checked over previously too. But 'checked over' is such a loose term isn't it? This is why I suggested earlier in the thread trying a different cylinder head.

 

The other possibility is that the cooling problems are not the fault of the engine but of the boat. There is a risk that exactly the same problems might continue with a new/recon engine. This is why I think it's worth putting a lot of effort into a proper diagnosis rather than going straight for the 'replace it' option. I see this occasionally in the world of boilers, where customers fit a new boiler to an old heating system only to find the problem they hoped to fix still exists.

 

MtB

Beware, and sorry if I'm stating the bleeding obvious.

 

Calcutt listings are, I believe, on the basis that you trade on an engine suitable for rebuilding.

 

It sounds to me that it is possible they might declare yours as not, so, unfortunately you may need to budget more than any quoted prices might imply.

 

The Calcutt page says they don't do exchange 1.5 engines at all. They'll only rebuild yours.

 

MtB

[HappyBunny]

Hmmm there is a balance to be struck ... and it is my bank balance I need to get moving soon to trade effectively as business is slack with this dreadful weather

 

So the head was "vacuum" tested, whatever that means, and was with heat ... the problem is being able to tie up somewhere to do work, engine swaps etc ... I know some boat yards have DIY facilities, but again when you factor in mooring fees (shudder) etc it all starts to add up, and as Richard says, this is now the third time the head has been off, tested and rebuilt once

 

she is possibly a bit marginal on the cooling front but ran sweet for a year of continuous cruising ( and I move a fair bit) with only one overheating episode when I was ploughing my way over the summit of the Oxford in the olden days when we were short of water and then since the "Screw Incident" I have had ongoing problems with overheating, air locks etc etc etc (you have to say that bit like Yul Bryner in "The King and I" )

 

I'm going back down my engine hole now for a furtle with exhaust manifold ... for long time now I have felt like I have been missing something that hs been getting steadily worse ... but BIG thanks for all the pontifiction so far

[RLWP]

Pontifiction - that's making stuff up while standing on a bridge - right?

 

Richard